Question on value on my old vintage sleds

BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
So as I mentioned in another post, I have these two sleds sitting in my storage shed. My wife's grandfather bought them new in 1974. Johnson Golden Ghost and Evinrude Quietflite. Both are the 436cc opposed twin, mechanical reverse, electric start, cigarette lighter and so one. They have been sitting for several years as they needed batteries, ignition switches and the fuel system cleaned out. Sleds are in good shape, 90% complete, straight and about 1500 clicks on the odometer for both. Engines turn over and have compression. I had the one out running 4 years ago but the carb was poorly tuned so it was flooding out. I placed them in storage as I have far too many projects so I decided to list them. I was asking 600$ apiece but am questioning that even as I cannot find comparables. I am no salesman, don't feel like ripping people off or haggling for top dollar but wondering what these things are really worth. I got one guy offering 700 for both. There is a reason I never went into sales and do the job that I do.

People have told me that vintage sleds are popular but again, things are 45 years old, need work and parts that are hard to source.

Thanks for any insight!
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
I found this, which seems to support your asking price at least for the ghost:


It also looks like a good place to post it too.

To me, $600 for an antique sled that is in overall good condition is not unreasonable. $700 for both is just lowballing IMHO. $1000 is more reasonable as an offer.
 
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BrianF

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Thanks for the link and input! That's what my wife said, just too low of an offer. I hate overcharging for anything by the Ukrainian in me hates to leave money on the table.
 
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Mooseman

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Wow, they are in really good condition and complete. A lot of times with these old sleds, they are in all hacked up and cobbled to just run but these were obviously not used much and well cared for. The seats aren't even ripped! I would be asking double what you're asking but you have to target the proper audience, like that vintage site. A good cleaning and some detailing would make them pop.
 
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BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
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West central Sask.
Thanks! Ya they were taken care of well and stored indoors. I am not sure if the odo is in miles or km but they are both around the 1600 mark. Neat old units but damn if I could ever find time to really work on them. As well, likely not parting with are the manuals and pamphlets that came with the sleds when bought. I can only find the receipt for the one sled and another that is long gone. Its neat to see how sledding style has changed...... thank God before my time.
 

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Mooseman

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You have documentation?!? Value just went up even more. Do they run at all?

And at that age, they are in miles since vehicles went metric mid-late 70's but sleds may have been even later.
 

BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
No they haven't run in years. They were put in storage around that 2009 mark. Had some old gas in them, needed batteries and an ignition switch. I did a flush of the tanks and checked the fuel systems. In late 2014, early 2015 I had the Golden Ghost running. I had to clean the impulse fuel pump (if that's the right term). It was in good shape, just stuck shut. I could get it started but it would die shortly after. I got one rip around the yard in it before it stalled out. I found it was flooding really bad. I took the carb apart, was in great shape but other than fiddling with the high/low speed I could not get it to run any better.

I would say the fuel systems need a better cleaning, a good carb job and new plugs. The motors are solid and have good compression.

As for the documents, those I may not let go with the sleds. I keep them in our curio cabinet but really neat to have around and the fact that someone kept them all these years.
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
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As long as they are in a possible running condition, someone could get into the carbs and clean or rebuild them properly.

Definitely hand the docs over with the sleds but they do add some value to them. Don't just give them away.
 

BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
So I went out to do some further cleaning of them. Started on the ghost. I managed to pull and flush the tank. I then blew the line clear. I hooked up my weak assed riding mower battery and charger. The electric start works great and I found that the impulse still works. I managed to get it firing a few times and last try I had it rev up real nice before she died.

Ran out of time but started cleaning the quietflite futher. I have to pull the recoil off and get the handle put back on. Then I will flush the tank and see if I can get her firing.
 
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BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
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West central Sask.
Well a further update. I decided to put some time in the Quiet Flite. Its recoil handle had been broken for years so I never bothered to really try with it. I had put some heavily treated fuel mix in the tank several years back that actually still smelled like real gas. I pulled fuel to the impulse pump, which was torn down and found to be immaculate inside. I pulled the plugs, hooked up the batter and cranked it for a while. The impulse worked so I gave it a prime and after a few more cranks it began to fire. It kept going and I got it running excellent.

The neutral pull works, the reverse works and I took both daughters on a quick rip on the grass. We were all ecstatic and I cannot believe how well the Flite runs! So whats left on it is to pull the recoil and attach the handle, new battery, change the oil in the chain case, get fresh fuel in her and new plugs.

So the plan on the Ghost is to play with the carb, maybe reset the high/low and look for an ignition switch. If no switch, the pull start will have to work. Worst case Ontario is that it will be a parts sled.

The wife and I quickly decided that the sleds are staying. Done.
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
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Nice! Those old sleds can be quite a bit of fun and you can maybe even take them to antique sled shows and runs.
 
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BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
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West central Sask.
My wife was so happy, she was a kid the last time she rode on one with her grandfather. Her seeing the kids on them was enough to make sure we keep them.

I gave the Flite full throttle a few times and the thing has some jam!! I had a blast and now look forward to taking her on the local sled rally.
 

BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
Got the recoil ripped off and repaired on the Evinrude. Pull starts like an old dream... No, it was not bad at all. I think the high needle needs some adjusting, lean it out just a bit. In neutral it will rev up nice but linger for half a minute before settling back down to a nice idle.

Got some fresh gas for the upcoming lawn mowing season and got a jerry freshly mixed with oil. Next up is the Ghost, which I will set the carb to baseline then try and get her running tomorrow.
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Speaking of leaning out, avoid gas with ethanol. It tends to lean out the mix and blow pistons. Ask me how I know. Depending on brands, most premiums don't have it (at least here in Ontario). Petro-Can usually has it in all grades. Some dock gas stations also doesn't have it because of the water phase separation.
 

BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
I despise ethanol but alas, nothing I can do here. Only a handful of stations, most are the same company, Federated Co-op, which last I had checked have ethanol in all blends. Mind you that was a few years ago and it would not hurt to check again.

The manual calls for 50:1 but until I am sure the carb is tuned properly and ensure there are no air leaks, I mixed around the 35-40:1. I will pull the plugs and take a look for color, hopefully looking good. The old mix in it now, was a richer mix, if I recall and it smokes pretty decently.

I will piss around on them tomorrow and grab some more random pics.
 
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BrianF

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West central Sask.
Well pictures will wait. If I send one large image it jams up my whole phone for hours.

So after a few pulls of the recoil, the Evinrude fires right up. Backed it out of the shed to make room for the Ghost. So with a decent prime, the thing runs and revs up real nice but eventually dies when the prime is gone.

I put in 1/4 tank of new fuel mix and pulled it to the impulse with my suction gun. The main line flows but it sounded like it was also getting air. I don't have any proper sized clear fuel line to double check but I sucked some fuel through with my mouth. Real fun but I think there is an air leak somewhere between the tank and the impulse. After a few runs I pulled the impulse apart. There was some fuel in there but it was not much.

I then pulled the carb. The impulse to carb line had small cracks around the connections, not sure if it is leaking as there was no leaking fuel.

The carb was a bit dirty but overall not in bad shape (had pulled it years ago). The bowl was damp but not full of fuel like it should be. The float and needle valve are working and seal good. I sprayed out the thing and it looks really good now.

I need to get several feet of clear line to see what else is going on. I see this post has turned from gathering advice on price to trials and tribulations...
 
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Mooseman

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Dialup huh? The joys of living the rural life! You should reduce the pictures' size before trying to upload. If using any flavour of Windows, install the Image Resizer Powertoy. It was originally from WinXP but has been adapted to work on newer Win versions.
 
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BrianF

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West central Sask.
Its actually my work cell. If I resize it works great but if I accidentally send a full size.... it does not end well. Thanks for the link, used to use paint for that but I think that went the way of the dodo..
 
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BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
I picked up some fuel line and began tackling the fuel system on the ghost. I set the base settings on the carb and reinstalled. New fuel line from it to the impulse pump. I ran some clear line from the impulse to a can of mix. I found some air leaks in and around the pump so I got them sorted. I primed the line and tossed some in the carb. I got it running and pretty decently at that. A nice draw of fuel from the can.

I then hooked up the old line from the tank and it ran rough and eventually died out. I ran out of time so next time I will run new line from tank to pump. I hope the issue is not the line in the tank as it looks precarious to change out.
 
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BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
So I worked on the ghost. Tank to pump including check valve was good. Able to push air into the tank, no leaks. Not able to suck fuel from the tank. The in tank line was so simple to unscrew and access. Found the primary filter so plugged and just worn out. Tomorrow I will source fresh li e and a new filter. Then try her out.20190516_205739.jpg
 

BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
I installed the new filter, pulled fuel to the pump and primed the engine. I got it running but after several seconds I was getting a loss in power and eventual stall. Similar circumstances to before with some fuel running out of the carb. I pulled the plugs and they were wet. I played this circle jerk for a while and got enough heat in the engine that I did not need to pull and dry the plugs after each stall. Restart was so-so.... Both plugs have spark, I even closed the gap a bit.
It appears like it is over fuelling and then starves itself out. I will bypass the tank to pump fuel line and if that does not sort out the starvation, I will bypass the tank again and pull fuel from a can as that worked the last time.

The other thing I am looking at is the small orifice at the base of the low speed needle/rod in the carb throat. I am not sure of all the terminology anymore so please excuse it. This orifice appears to be the source of the fuel running out the carb. Underneath of it is this brass "thing" that bolts in, holds up the fuel bowl and directs fuel into the carb vestibules (picture is of it prior to cleaning). It has a thicker O ring that I am wondering might be leaking.... will see how this pans out.20190518_200947_resized.jpg

20190514_152223_resized_2.jpg
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Unless I'm seeing it wrong, looks more like it's flooding rather than fuel starvation. It's usually caused by the float and/or needle. Check and clean the needle and seat. Then check the float to make sure it actually floats in gas. Sometimes they deteriorate, especially the old foam/plastic type. Put it together, flip it upside down and see if you can blow air into the fuel inlet. If you can, the needle and seat may be bad.

It does look like it needs a good cleaning. I've had instances where carb cleaner wasn't enough and had to poke the small holes with a steel brush bristle to unplug them.
 

BrianF

Original poster
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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
So I tested the float and needle when it was torn down. I could blow through it when the float was down and the needle sealed perfectly with the weight of the float. I did clean it out and cleared all the orifices, checked that the float was parallel when upside down. It looks like a metal float but I never checked to see if it was sealed. I will pull it apart when there is still fuel in it as the other times it was bone dry. Thanks for the tip!
 
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BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
Some further diagnosing done. I removed the carb, primed the bowl and found that the float works and the needle completely seals.

I tore it down to bare bones next. The float is completely sealed as well. All the parts are in great shape. The only thing that still jumps out at me as a possible issue is the O ring that seals the main jet/discharge tube.

I found an old online manual of some John Deere sleds and in it they have a break down of the Bendix and its operation. Quite interesting and not the type of operation I expected. So where I though fuel was flooding out of, in fact might not be, which is labeled the well vent.

I will do some more work on this and see what else I can come up with.
parts diagram.pngoperation 1.png
operation 2.png
 
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BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
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West central Sask.
Found some time to put the carb back on the Ghost. Primed it prior install and pulled fuel to it. I leaned out the settings by 1/8 turn for both high and low. I got it to fire a few times but just not enough to catch on. Pulled the plugs, which were damp but not flooded. No big fuel stream from the venturi either. Played this song and dance for a while and gave up as its mid 20's already.

Checked and I have spark. Even in the day light I can see it. It does dance around the ground electrode but it is there.

I know it gets air, no doubt about that but trying to think of other issues now. The engine is an air pump. Air gets sucked in and forced out. Well what about the exhaust? I remember when I had it running a bit earlier this month. I could get it to rev up and I remember seeing some mouse house flying out. Perhaps the mufflers are still packed?

So my next projects are to unbolt the exhaust (if possible) and try it again. Then swap carbs with the Evinrude as a test.

On that note, we had some friends over yesterday and I had to show off the sleds. Buddy likes vintage iron and was quite impressed. He quite liked the fact that after 3 pulls, the Evinrude fires right up, revs nicely and settles into a decent idle.
 

BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
And further more.... I cracked off the exhaust from the mufflers. Rusty bolts broke free without drama (later went on with anti seize). I used a wrench and moderately sized flat screw driver to prop the pipes open. I primed the engine and it fired up, revved and died. I did this song and dance a few times before bypassing the main fuel tank. Primed the carb, impulse and placed the line in my jerry of mix. The Ghost fired to life and in a poor state of tune, roughly idled, revved and so on as I fiddled with the high/low. I could shut it down and fire it up at will now, with no fuel pouring from the carb.

Then the thing just died. Crank but no fire. Pull the plugs, they were damp but could not get any spark. Played with the kill switch, ignition but still no spark. Next up is the check the CDI box. Clean the grounds, check all connections and see if perhaps something is loose of overheated.

I also checked the ignition switch to source another. Made by Indak, who are still in business and make a whole pile of switches. Need a 7 pin, which I can get on amazon for 50$ or so. Now the wiring will line up but I may have to make some sort of mounting plate to get it to sit properly.

This btch is close and I will have it running this winter. Bloody rights.
 

BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
I made some time today to check on the sleds. My oldest finished cutting grass today so when I was parking the thing, I decided its now or never. The Evinrude needed a quick prime down the carb throat and she fired up and ran great as usual. It was just sitting too long between running.

The Ghost still had no spark. I cleaned the CDI ground wire and found a nearby terminal to use as a ground. Still no spark. I then traced the kill switch and disconnected it. Now she sparks like she was new.

Primed her up and got her to fire and run a bit. Impulse is working but it seems like I am back to square one with the carb. Oh well, I can figure that out, just glad the ignition is working.
 

BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
Well upon some further thought and more researching, I think the issue with the carb is the O ring on the main jet tube. When it does not seal, it causes fuel to dump out in the venture, causing very rich or flooding conditions. While it was not broken, this Or ring was flat and doubtful it was actually sealing. When I reinstalled it last time, I used some thick white lithium grease, which I suspect help seal it for that brief period I ran it.

Similar carbs were used on older Harley's and prone to the same problems.
 

BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
Did a couple of things on the sleds today. Tested DC output on the Evinrude. I have it hooked up to a toasted battery, just to ensure I don't fry the rectifier... if not already. Its bad, tested at 7.5 volts. I started the sled but could not get a DC reading on my multimeter. Its an autoranging unit and for some reason it would not give me any reading. But... tested the battery after a brief run and it was up to 8.5 volts, which was slowly dropping. I suspect it is working.

I did some checking on the Ghost's fuel line. I had figured there was an air leak somewhere and knew the primer was not working. Well I dug in and found where my air leak was.... one of the primer lines was cracked very bad. I cut the portion out and reinstalled it. Now it appears there is no more air leaks and the primer definitely pulls fuel from the tank. When testing with my suction gun, you could hear an air leak in that area. Now, it is quiet.

I pulled the carb off and removed the main jet. The O ring appears like it should seal but after some light prodding I found it was cracking and overall just worn out.
O ring.jpgprimer line.jpgprimer.jpg
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Winter is coming :biggrin: . I'm gonna have to start working on the sleds too after putting the summer toys away.
 

BrianF

Original poster
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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
Damn rights! I want to get ahead of the curve on these as once winter hits, its game over. Other than a battery, recoil handle and ignition switch, the evinrude is ready to rock. Once the carb is sorted, the Ghost just needs a battery. Oh and new plugs to seal the deal. I did some reading on vintage sleds and I am running non insulated plugs, which was causing the interference with my multimeter.
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Yeah, I'm gonna be busy this fall. Have a trailer to sell, swap tracks, fix up and sell the old sled, put in the track from the old sled, replace the starter solenoid and add ski bumpers on the new sled.
 
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BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
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West central Sask.
Jesus, you will miss the season with all that on the list. I am hoping to have these sleds sorted out this next month as I have a pile of fencing work left and I have to figure out what I am doing with my snow blower. I either need to replace the auger gear box, buy a new/used unit or possibly looking at a used quad and blade.

The sledding season out here can be absolute garbage. Some years we have lots of snow but its way too damn cold and with the wind, the snow becomes treacherous. I remember one year there was next to nothing for snow all winter, then when it did snow, it was followed by the usual -40. One idiot kid down the block went out and bought a new sled, it never left the box of his truck all winter. He was dumb so it was well earned.

Back when we were living near Prince Albert, we sledded quite often. Always had decent amounts of now and lots of groomed trails into the forest. Even in -30 we would head out as the wind was not bad in the woods. Where we are now, it is a lot of wide open prairie and not even hospitable for polar bears.
 
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Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
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Hell, that was only the sled related stuff. If you read any of my other posts, I have a ton of other projects and shit to do around the house. If I'm lucky, I might get to fixing my sled in November.

Here, conditions are either great or absolute garbage. This last season was amazing. Lots of snow, not too cold, albeit it started late. I did over 3000km. Other years we've had barely any snow with rain. Or steady cold below -20c with no snow. Buying a trail pass early is a real crap shoot. At least now I have a bit more liberty to trailer to snow if there is any.

When I was in Regina in the winter of '87, it was so mild, we were fighting slush in the streets. Didn't get that much snow neither. Must have brought the crap winter weather with me that year.
 

BrianF

Original poster
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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
Well I picked up a new O ring for the carb. Smallest one they had was still a bit tight. I will oil it up or silicone grease it and work it past the threads inside the discharge tube. Hopefully tomorrow I will get it all done and back together....
 
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BrianF

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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
Alright, so I put in the new O ring, put her all back together and no change. I found the fuel is coming from either the top of the high needle or the low speed circuits. It the runs down the high speed needle and puddles at the throat of the carb. SO....... In retrospect: there is nothing to this carb. 1 float bowl gasket, fibre gasket for the main discharge tube and that one O ring. Everything seems squared away. Well it gets fuel, gets air, gets spark but chokes itself out. Now looking back to when it ran last, I had the mufflers bypassed. Could it still be plugged up mufflers? The spark died before I really got a chance to run it with the mufflers put back on.

So on tomorrows agenda I will test this theory. This is the problem with working on these things a few minutes here and there.
 
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Mooseman

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Ottawa, ON
I know that the muffler and chamber leading up to it is part of the two stroke system for pulses and all that to make the intake and exhaust working together. It's possible for the muffler to be plugged, possibly a mouse nest.

What about thee needle and seat? They're the usual suspects for flooding, fuel pouring out.
 

BrianF

Original poster
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Jul 24, 2013
1,192
West central Sask.
Alright..... so...…. I unbolted the exhaust, no change. I ended up with raw fuel spitting out the pipes. I then found the ignition switch is just about worn out. I had it revving decently and then it just died. Unhooked the switch and she was sparking again. I put on a replacement (non correct) recoil handle and proceeded to keep trying. Not fun at all.

As for the float and needle valve. Earlier this year I had set the float to t he factory 3/16" height. No difference. I later set it to level and have left it at that. The needle has the rubber tip and is in great condition. The float is metal and 100% sealed. I have pulled the carb and blown through the fuel inlet with the carb in varying positions and can attest that it seals. I also primed the bowl and blew through it and seals. But, I am thinking perhaps that I need to set the float even wider. That's where I am at with it thus far. After that, I am going to find a shop to send the thing to, I just dont have the time.

On a good note, I got some new NGK resisted plugs and put them in the Evinrude. I checked and the primer works. A few pulls and she was up and running. Now my multimeter works. The rectifier is working but At sustained revs, I am seeing 30 volts at the battery. 17 to 18 at idle. I am not sure if the 30 is normal or if there is an issue with that. Either way, at least the Evinrude is ready to ride.
 
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