P1345 Help

[Robert Russo]

Help!
I wanted to test the phaser before I change it but I do not know how to. I have had the code for months but Monday it went out for about 3 hours that can back again. I changed the VVT cam and Crank sensors and did a relearn. Still nothing. What do you think? Bad cam phaser? The truck runs good and gets about 16 MPG around town and 20 highway. The idle is as smooth and could be.

Robert

 

[Mooseman]

Hi and welcome.

That code was my Achilles heel with mine years ago, doing the same as you did. Had the dealer do a CASE relearn to no avail. I wound up replacing the cam phaser and it fixed it.

There is no way really to test it except with a Tech 2. How did you do your "relearn"? Was it an actual CASE relearn (aka: crankshaft variation relearn) or just disconnect the battery?

 

[Robert Russo]

Mooseman, I drove to NYC to have the case relearn done with a Tech2 but it came right back. Interesting, as soon as I start the truck after clearing the code P1345 is already pending. I am planning to replace the phaser. How much time does this take? I already purchased the timing chain holder tool.

Thanks for you time and response.

Robert
I purchased this in January 2018 and the last owner covered the check engine light with black take. I will never purchase a car without bringing a scanner with me.

 

[mrrsm]

My First Thought?

"Oh God... NOOOO00000oooooo....."

Second Thought?

Steel your Jaw... And follow @Mooseman's Epic Cam Phaser R&R "How-To"

https://gmtnation.com/forums/threads/how-to-replace-the-cam-phaser-aka-vvt-actuator.14924/

Third Thought?

If you want to see just how bad things can get if you accidentally "Drop The Timing Chain" and/or "Lose Tension on the Timing Chain Tensioner..." Visit my Photobucket and Start at the Very TOP of the Main 0000Trailblazer Photo Album and look at each and every sub-album that follows for images of Pre-Repair Post-repair R&R Tools and Parts, Part Numbers and Essential Activities. If you are not a Seriously Capable Mechanic... just be honest with yourself before you even think about starting this project... and invite any learned friends to assist you with this work.

This is your "Red Pill" Vs. "Blue Pill" moment of decision here... Just like NEO in The Matrix. The work is very complex, very expensive (if that Timing Chain should Drop) very time consuming and very nerve-wracking as well.... even if everything involved in this job you are about to attempt goes favorably well for you. If not... You will Discover just how DEEP this Rabbit Hole can GO:

http://s557.photobucket.com/user/60...INEREPAIR/TRAILBLAZEREPAIRTOOLS?sort=3&page=1

 

[Mooseman]

I'd say it's about a 4-6 hour job depending on experience.

 

[Robert Russo]

Thanks everyone....

Another question, If I use the GM KENT-MOORE J-44217 TIMING CHAIN RETENTION HOOKS, should I also try to get a timing chain plunger wedge/holder to keep the chain plunger in?
I have a lot of experience with cars and rebuilding engines so I am sure I can do this.

Thanks
Everyone

 

[Mooseman]

I used just the chain holders, no problems if used correctly. Someone had used the wedge and it came loose.

 

[Robert Russo]

Thank you everyone. This will be my spring project!!!

 

[mrrsm]

Just remember to make DAMNED SURE... as to How well you you Install Those Hooks. If you have any doubts... then using this Tool as a back-up to securing the Passenger Side Timing Chain Tensioner would not hurt... just don't drive it in like a 10 Penny Finish Nail into a Light Pole with a 3 Pound Sledge Hammer... and install it AFTER YOU INSTALL THE HOOKS FIRST. The Hooks must be tight enough to remove all of the Slack on BOTH side of the Timing Chain with EQUAL Force. If at any time the Chain Goes Slack,,, the Timing Chain Tensioner WILL expand all the way out...and well.... lets not jinx your project... just words to the wise.

This one is the least expensive, highest quality Wedge Tool:

http://www.freedomracing.com/lower-timing-gear-retainer-en-48464-alt.html

...and before you even start to unbolt the two Camshaft Sprockets....Use this Tool to ensure that the Two Camshafts are in the correct position with a Black Link matched up to the marks on each Sprocket and with Both Flats of the back of the Camshafts facing UP and Level..>(Horizontal)...with the #1 Piston sitting right at TDC... This is the Tool of Choice designed to make them behave. The word DELPHI should appear Level with the edge of the upper outer engine head:

http://www.freedomracing.com/camshaft-holding-tool-j-44221-alt.html

 

[Mooseman]

I didn't use neither of those tools when I replaced the phaser TWICE, no issues. Save your money. The hooks are more than enough.

 

[Robert Russo]

How can I tell if the phaser is bad when I have it off the car?

 

[mrrsm]

You should be able to tell once the Intake Manifold, Fuel Rail and Valve Cover have been removed.... after rotating the Engine Clockwise (NEVER Counter-Clockwise) until there are two Black Timing Chain Links in line with the two Chevron or Dots marked on the Intake and Exhaust Camshaft Sprockets when positioned at 12:00 High.... with the tail ends of tyhe two Camshaft Flats facing up, level and horizontal... and with the #1 Piston positioned at Top Dead Center (THIS Tool helps very much to spot that TDC and you won't wind up scratching the Piston Head like using a Long Screw Driver might...)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FMSU9Q/?tag=gmtnation-20

... if the Cam Phaser has damage inside of it ....then you'd notice that the word DELPHI was 'slightly off angle' when compared to being in line with the upper level edge of the outer engine head... if the word Delphi tilts down towards the Driver's Side of the Engine Head... then the Cam Phaser is T*Ts UP.

Please note that it might take as many as (14) consecutive clockwise rotations until ALL of these alignments show up... so be patient and don't rush through those turns while each cylinder slowing expels compressed air while trying to find the "Sweet Spot" when all of the Planets Align.

As far as testing the Cam Phaser Goes... ordinarily this is impossible to do as the CPAS needs to receive a PWM Signal to actuate the inner Solenoid Valve to allow the Engine Oil Under Pressure to drive the Vanes and internal Helical gear to rotate a mere 25 Degrees... this is the best example I can think of to allow you to visualize this process.

Please note that the Mechanic in this video does NOT have the the Exhaust Cam Shaft and Cam Phaser positioned as it would ordinarily be in the Engine Head... he has simply decided to lock the sprocket at the particular place he chose just for the purposes of him demonstrating how the Cam Phaser moves the Cam Shaft those minimal degrees of rotation using Air Pressure instead of Oil Pressure:

 

[Mooseman]

You pretty much need a Tech 2 to truly diagnose it but from personal experience, if you replaced the cam and crank sensors as well as the actuator and the code persists after a CASE RELEARN, the only thing left is the phaser.

 

[Robert Russo]

Well I changed my cam phaser this weekend but I still have the code p1345. The old phader did not have any play in it but I could not get it to actuate with 100psi pressure. I did test the new phaser and it did actuate. Now I am really confused. I can say that the engine was very gunked up. Do I need to do another case relearn?
Should I just dump the vehicle and get a Ford? I have never had so many issues with a vehicle with 100k miles. I sold my Jeep with 219k with almost no issues
I can't get it thru inspection.
Ideas?
Thanks
Robert

 

[mrrsm]

Based upon your confession... If you have performed a nominal installation of the New Camshaft Phaser and NOT performed an Engine Flush (Plenty of "How-To" Threads on this issue)...then THAT is a Mandatory Step. Variable, Clean Oil Pressure is an absolute necessity with this engine...and if it has been abused by Poor Maintenance ...whether at 100,000 Miles ...or only 50,000 Miles... without regular oil changes using ONLY the recommended 5W-30 Viscosity Motor Oil... these engines will die a miserable and early death. But Before you Throw In The Towel... Get your hands on some inexpensive Oil Filters... some Cheap Organic 5W-30 Motor Oil... enough to perform a few back-to-back Oil Changes with Engine Flush Procedures and do the following:

(1) Get the Engine HOT, Clear the Codes... and immediately Change out your existing Engine Oil and Oil Filter for the Cheap Filter Version (PREFILL FOR TWO MINUTES B4 INSTALLING IT) and then...

(2) Put in the Balance of the Six (6) Quarts of Cheap Motor Oil and Add in One (1) Quart of either Engine Flush or Transmission Fluid.

(3) Start the Engine WITHOUT REVVING THE MOTOR...and let it idle for around Five (5) Minutes. Watch for Codes... and then...

(4) Repeat Items (1)- (3) ..."Wash, Rinse...Repeat..."

(5) Drain the Second Batch of Flush-Oil and after putting in a Brand New HIGH QUALITY OIL FILTER BUT PRE-FILL THE NEW OIL FILTER OVER TWO MINUTES FIRST and then add in to a total of (7) Quarts of Mobil 1 5W-30 Motor Oil.

(6) Start the Engine... let it Idle for Five (5) Minutes ...Watch for Engine Codes. Then take it for a Test Drive and see if the P1345 Code rears its Ugly Head.

One Last thought... It is a Free Country of course ...and you have the absolute right to Pick and Choose to own and drive whatever suits your fancy... but you probably won't find much sympathy on sites dedicated to GM Products and their sustenance and repairs for anything else that does not bear the names of GM, GMC... or Chevrolet... ;>)

 

[Robert Russo]

I actually did an engine flush 5 thousand miles ago using Liqui Moly 2037 Pro-Line Engine Flush I will try it again this weekend but I have very low hopes. Just for the record I own a 1940 Buick convertible, a 1966 Impala SS convertible and a 2015 Equinox and this Envoy has given me more trouble then all of the combined.

Thanks
Robert

 

[Mooseman]

You need a CASE relearn.

Your Envoy probably has a bit of mileage on it and at 15 years old as a daily driver, things tend to need repairs. Mine was on a replacement engine that had only 100k Km but its phaser was later defective. Seeing the inside of the engine, I knew why with heavy gunk buildup. Unless you are the original owner and/or know all the maintenance that was done on it, there is no way to really know. Since you are trying to get it inspected, I would assume you just acquired this vehicle.

 

[Robert Russo]

You are correct I have no history but I bet it was not taken care of. I am planning to flush the engine this weekend.

Thanks
Robert

 

[Robert Russo]

Mooseman I need another case relearn even though I did not change the sensors again?

Thanks
Robert

 

[Mooseman]

Yeah. The last time, it was with the bad phaser so likely you do need it again. You did clear the codes?

 

[Robert Russo]

Yes I cleared the codes. I am thinking of buying a ilink400 scanner because it can do relearn. Have you had any experence with it?
Thnaks
Robert

 

[Mooseman]

No but it does look good for the price. Looks like it can do most, if not all, the same functions as the Tech 2. Only thing it can't do is program modules, like PCM's. My only "concern" is that it will come loaded to work with just for one make (i.e. GM). This is not a usual occurrence though.

 

[Robert Russo]

Ok I just received my ilink 400 and I downloaded the GM software. My plan is to do a crank/cam relearn tomorrow. Wish me luck!

Robert

 

[Mooseman]

Let us know after in the scanning tools section how you like it. A review would be nice as an alternative to the Tech 2.

 

[Robert Russo]

Ok here is the results
1) The Ilink400 after you download the GM software looks almost exactly like the Tech2 menus I have seen on Youtube.

2) I did a relearn procedure and it acknowledged the the relearn was successful.

Cleared all the codes

Now the bad news

I still have a P1345

What else could be the problem?

All of the parts were GM that I replaced.

 

[mrrsm]

This is another reference link that gives some deeper technical operational information of this weird relationship. Depending upon the Mileage of the Vehicle... perhaps you will find Wire Problems involving corrosion that has penetrated the CMP wires in and around the CMP Connector that is prohibiting a Good Low Reference Signal Voltage Transfer to and from the PCM.

If that does not reveal a problem... then the only other thing I can think of that would cause these "irreconcilable differences" between what the CKP is picking up for the actual position of the Crankshaft and what the Actual Position of the Exhaust Camshaft is to know precisely when to cause the PWM of the EFIs in concert with the PWM of the Coil On Plugs and get the two working together ... just right... is an Overly Stretched Timing Chain working under an Exhausted Timing Chain Tensioner.

Even without having any real or actual performance issues... this Dynamic Electronic System is obviously sensitive enough to pickup even tiny variations between these sensors ...and trip the P0016 and P1345 Codes... Don't get put off by the name"Buick" being mentioned in this link ...as we DO have the Ranier supporting the very same GM LL8 4.2L Engine:

http://www.cardiytool.com/tag/P1345

 

[Robert Russo]

Just another followup:

I looked at all of the wires and they are in perfect condition. I am at a loss for what to do next.

Any ideas?

How can I tell what the timing should be and what it actually is?

Thanks
Robert

 

[Mooseman]

If your scanner has the capability of commanding the phaser, you should give it a try determine of the CPAS and phaser are working correctly.

 

[mrrsm]

Robert... Grab a Cup of Coffee... Have a seat and get comfortable... and read... observe and consider this information very carefully:

(1) The Cam Phaser is only a FRACTION of the Entire Timing Chain Set Components that can lead to the "persistence of vision" involving the P0014 - P01345 Nightmare.

(2) Now... Consider this GIF ...and observe the enormous distance that the Timing Chain Must Travel to make One Complete Circuit...





(3) Then imagine that even with having the New Cam Phaser installed... if that Timing Chain has endured enough S-T-R-E-T-C-H over time... the Relationships between the ACTUAL Position of the Timing Cog on the Crankshaft ...versus... the ACTUAL Position of not only the Sprocket Gear on the Cam Phaser ...but also the Timing Chain Sprocket on the Intake Camshaft as well... and all the possible misinterpretations that can result is they SIMPLY DO NOT ALIGN WITHIN THEIR MEASURED SPECIFIED DISTANCES IN BETWEEN EACH OTHER.

(4) Based upon the sheer precision that the PCM expects to read from the Three Stooges that are the CPAS Sensor ....the CPS Sensor and perhaps the most Important One... the CKP Sensor... there is simply No Way that the PCM will NOT find these event SLIGHTLY akimbo...and NOT throw the P0014 and the P1345 Codes. This HAS to happen if the Timing Chain has been Stretched past the limits of this Three Sensor reconciliation.

(5) The ONLY Solution left to avail yourself of involves a complete replacement ...not only of the Timing Chain, Timing Chain Guides and the Timing Chain Tensioner.... but the Intake Camshaft Sprocket as well due to Roller Grooving from endless wear in the concavities between the Timing Chain Teeth.

This is a Quote from a Fellow Sufferer who posted how he finally solved this expensive fix:

https://forums.trailvoy.com/showthread.php?t=53974

"I took the Envoy to a different dealer and they worked with me. They eliminated a simple thing or two that I could not check out, then they had to tear into the front of the engine. Replacing the (slightly stretched) cam drive chain and worn gears and sprockets has solved the problem of P1345 tripping on cold starts.

The price tag was about $3,300 but it's worth it to finally have it fixed because I could not pass Wisconsin's "emissions test" with the error code and the only way to clear the code also clears the I/M Monitor values that the state looks at.

The mechanics tell me that even though the cam angle was not far enough off to detect by having drive-ability symptoms, it takes such a small angle difference to trip the code that it's almost silly."

To paraphrase The Oracle in "The Matrix"

"You're a Good Man, Robert... and I hate Giving Good People... Bad News..."

 

[Mooseman]

Here's the GM-SI diagnostic for the P1345. No mention of chain stretch.

It is quite possible you got either a bad CPAS or Phaser. I've had a rebuilt by GM phaser fail after about a year or so. Replaced it with a Dorman, lasted till the truck went to its grave.

 

[limequat]

Geez, I think I'd rather just turn off the code in the PCM than do a $3300 repair. A couple degrees of advance or retard won't be perceptible to anyone but the PCM.
Do any of the other OHC engines have this problem with chain stretch?

 

[Mooseman]

Mine had it twice. First time was the cam phaser. Replaced it and all was good. Then it came back a couple years later. I had it turned off by you and it was fine until it started running like crap. Replaced the phaser again and it was good again. I think it failed to the point where it stayed overly advanced.

I've seen some talk about the LS engines also getting it but that's caused mostly by sensor issues.

I agree you can get the code turned off but it may eventually fail so much that it will affect drivability.

 

[limequat]

Wow, that's crazy, Mooseman. You think you're smart because you bought a car without a timing belt, then this happens.