P0017 only when reviving engine over 1500 RMP. Weird!

GinTucsonAz

Original poster
Member
Mar 29, 2019
7
Tucson Az
Hello,

2007 Trailblazer 4.2 4x4

I have a weird one.... I only get a P0017 code generated when reviving the engine in Park or Neutral over 1500 RPM. If I use my Tech II clone and run the CMP test even at those RMPs no code and the CMP position values are spot on. If I drive the trailblazer no code, if I use the tech II to force the idle high no code. Trailblazer runs prefect gets normal mileage.

Any thoughts? Should I call an exorcist?

Thanks for the help!!

Greg
 

Maverick6587

Member
Dec 16, 2018
730
Sterling Heights, Michigan
I would start with the standard... Check engine oil level or change engine oil, remove and clean the camshaft sensor, crankshaft sensor, and the cpas. Also check the cpas connector port for oil.

Edit: there should be 3 metal screens on the cpas. If you're missing any screens or they look like they're not tight to the cpas, replace it. If you do replace the cpas make sure you get the new version that comes with metal rings wrapped around those metal screens. Make sure you buy ACDdelco parts.
 
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GinTucsonAz

Original poster
Member
Mar 29, 2019
7
Tucson Az
Ok, interesting results. Found the cam position sensor connector crispy so I changed that. Cleaned out the CPAS, it looked good. Saw a bunch of crud on the cam phaser so shot that clean as best as possible through the cap and cam position sensor hole. Changed the oil, restarted p0017. Went for a drive cleared the code stayed off. Now it throws it about every 5th start. I'm starting to think the cam phaser isnt always going back to zero. Ugh. I figure run it some more after the cleaning and see what it does. On the tech 2 the CPM test is prefect WHEN the truck starts with no p0017. So I don't think I'm out of time just not always going back to zero.

Thoughts?

Thanks again!
 

mrrsm

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Oct 22, 2015
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You have not mentioned the mileage of your vehicle yet... but if the P0017 Code has a certain "Persistence of Vision..." it may be due to the following combination of problems of an aging engine:

(1) The Timing Chain has become Stretched.

(2) The Timing Chain Guides have established Deep Grooves within their surfaces.

(3) The expected positions of rotations are lengthened to the point of being unreliable references that correlate the Rotating Crankshaft and Camshafts positions accurately enough to be where they are expected to be by the PCM Programming.

(4) The Camshaft Phaser has suffered from internal wear or damage making it unreliable in establishing the control over 25 degrees of motion using (6) Positional Hall Effect Square Wave Triggers (Three Small & Three Large) built into the Small Reluctor Ring of its design.

(5) Items One, Two and Four ...singly, or in combination with one another.

The P0017 Code is a manifestation of what happens when the absolute position of the Exhaust Camshaft... cannot be reconciled with the absolute position of the Crankshaft during periods of Compression sensitive to the Timing of the Spark to ignite combustion in all Six Cylinders assisted by The Exhaust Cam Phaser.

In the end... it may well become necessary to replace the Timing Chain Set with an OEM Grade Kit from Cloyes consisting of:

(a) A New High Grade Timing Chain
(b) Three Timing Chain Guides
(c) An Intake Camshaft Sprocket
(d) A Crankshaft Sprocket
(e) A New Exhaust Camshaft Phaser (separate from the Cloyes Kit)

This task involves a lot of non-trivial effort... and therefore, is no job for any Novice and will also become an expensive endeavor (twice so, if completed any Dealership Repair ASE Mechanic).

There is a contemporary thread linked involving the presentation of (5) Youtube Videos showing how all of this gets done on the Four Cylinder Variant 2.8L GM Atlas Engine in a Colorado Truck. But if you want to learn more ...watching these will ground you in the Scanner Analysis of the P0017 Code Problem and its bizarre recurrence for NOT being fixed in the Mechanical World at large.

They will also present you with the Step By Step Repair Procedures that are close enough in the main when describing the Dis-assembly and Re-assembly of the Engine to be a real eye-opener to observe of all the problems you will have to overcome ...and more that will need specific attention... with the 4.2L Atlas Motor.

These videos are quite comprehensive and nearly One Hour Long each... so depending upon whether or not you possess the Mechanical Skill Set to take on such a daunting job... At the very least... You can download them and then use the VLC (VideoLan) application to speed search to the sections that concern you the most. This is indeed a Rare Chance to seeing almost every sub-task being performed for both the Analysis of the P0017 Code AND the Complete Repair and is therefore quite valuable to ANY Owner of vehicles that have the GM Atlas 4, 5 and 6 Cylinder Engines under their hoods.


As an example of how instructive these videos will become... since you mentioned finding "Crud" inside of the areas you worked on and then performed an Oil Change later on... This Screen Print from the 3rd Video shows the very poor condition of the engine internals being coated with Gas and Oil Blow By Residue... such to the extent that the Oil Pick Up Tube is so gummed over with Crud that it is almost completely occluded! Poor Maintenance and waiting too long between oil changes sets the stage for excessive parts wear of the Timing Chain Set and a resulting lack of proper Oil Pressure at higher RPM that could be an additional reason why the P0017 is setting.

GMATLASENGINEOILPICKUPTUBE.jpg

You must remember that the Timing Chain Tensioner is Hydraulically activated under Oil Pressure to push the Plunger Foot Pad against the Passenger Side Chain Guide. So if your engine looks like THIS one down inside... it could be a factor in the problem if there is insufficient Oil Pressure due to a Blocked Oil Pick Up Tube well above 1,500 RPM.
 
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GinTucsonAz

Original poster
Member
Mar 29, 2019
7
Tucson Az
The little beastie has 140K miles on it. Those are great videos. With it having 140k on it, I think i would just run it as is until its driveability goes in the toilet then just rebuild the engine. That much labor doesn't make any sense at this mileage. The SUV still runs great at this point and no chain slap noises yet. Being a 4x4 and having to take all that off as well just adds to the decision to run it till it dies. Once dead rebuilt it will the highest quality timing components availible.

The team that designed the timing chain on these engines must just hate people. It seems like it would take a lot of effort to design such horrible system. I can only imagine the meetings..... how can we make this suck even more to maintain..... how about making it so the oil pan has to be removed with the timing chain cover? Prefect but use bolts that break easily... lol What can you do but roll with the punches.

Thanks for those videos!
 
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GinTucsonAz

Original poster
Member
Mar 29, 2019
7
Tucson Az
As a follow up we bought this Trailblazer "cheap" about 2 years ago as a temporary car while I did a ton of work on our Ford expedition. So no clue on its maintenance history but judging by the junk that came out in the engine flush (I normally never use those) I am thinking they didn't follow proper pil change intervals. We found it nice to have a small SUV for 4x4ing on the trails. It does shockingly well with the G80.

Thanks again
 
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mrrsm

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Oct 22, 2015
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I like your thinking and plan for the ultimate overhaul approach on a pulled motor mounted on an Engine Stand. The GM Engineers probably never actually get their hands dirty or worry about the consequences that concern "The Owners" ...especially since their prime directive is not to design elegance and simplicity with these modern platforms... but include the complexity and difficulty needed to prevent those said average owners from ever considering to perform their OWN Repairs.

As a tiny h/j on the topic... some of the GM Engineers working of the design of the Ecotec Engine Series actually DID include a Removable Timing Chain Tensioner as illustrated in this Youtube Video. If only Ron Kociba and the GM Atlas Engineers on his Design Team back in 2000 would have done so as well... the life and times of the GMT360s might have taken an entirely different repair vector:

 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,327
Ottawa, ON
Since you have a Tech 2, try doing a CASE relearn. Worth a shot.

I'll bet it's the cam phaser with how you describe its possible maintenance history. I've had a bad phaser as well as a chain tensioner die on me and it looked like it was poorly maintained. I would try replacing the CPAS first just in case. You could also try a flush.
 

GinTucsonAz

Original poster
Member
Mar 29, 2019
7
Tucson Az
Hello, I did do the case relearn just in case. Can the cam phaser be replaced without pulling the timing chain cover? Is it serviceable under the valve cover?

Thanks again for all the suggestions
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,327
Ottawa, ON
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GinTucsonAz

Original poster
Member
Mar 29, 2019
7
Tucson Az
Thanks for that great write up. If my p0017 doesn't settle down after the cleaning I may take a shot at that. That looks like a bit of a pain but not the insanity of the timing chain. I don't mind that level of pain.

Thanks again!
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,327
Ottawa, ON
Pain is good if it results in the satisfaction of fixing it yourself :biggrin:

I also recommend the Dorman phaser. The Delphi rebuilt one from the dealer didn't last with me.

Looking at RA, there are now several brands available, all new too:
 
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GinTucsonAz

Original poster
Member
Mar 29, 2019
7
Tucson Az
Thanks!! I'll run it for 500 miles and see if things settle down if not I'll give the cam phaser a try. Other than the timing chain craziness it really is a nice little SUV.

Thanks again!
 

GregSchultz

Member
Mar 29, 2018
3
Arizona
Well sadly it still wont zero reliably so....... cam phaser replacement time! I took your advice on the dorman part. Wish me luck! I still feel pretty sure the chain is good and it's just the phaser. I'll let you know, should be able to do it latter this week when the parts and tools come in. Let the madness begin!

Thanks again for the help.
 
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