No gears all at once

Thomeygun1

Original poster
Member
Jan 31, 2021
13
West Virginia
Good evening. I have a 2008 GMC Envoy 4.2l. On my way home from work I was traveling up a hill about 25mph when all of a sudden it was like I hit the shifter into neutral. None of my forward or reverse gears worked but park works fine along with gear selection indicators. I also tried to switch in and out of 4x4 but to no avail. I was able to make it to a parking lot and checked my fluid which looked fine.

My transmission has never acted up made funny noises or anything like that in the 3yrs I've owned it.

I was hoping someone has an idea I can try when returning to my envoy tomorrow.
 

Mike534x

Member
Apr 9, 2012
923
How many miles, and do you know the maintenance history on the truck? As far as the fluid goes, you said its fine, so it had the typical red color and didn't smell burnt or anything like that?


Someone else had a similar issue not too long ago, I can't find the thread but I think a clogged transmission filter was the cause.
 
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Thomeygun1

Original poster
Member
Jan 31, 2021
13
West Virginia
There's roughly 153k miles on it and I'm not aware of the maintenance history. I've driven it roughly 8k miles, no problems. No burnt smell and it was still red.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Do this first, since the fluid looks good. Check the trans fluid on a level surface with the engine off, wiping the dipstick clean to verify. Then start the engine and see if the fluid level is now lower, this should indicate a working pump.

My first thought was a clogged filter also, generally that may show it's face by being able to engage a gear after sitting for a period of time, ie, a few hours or overnight. If so that's the first thing I would change.

Any previous repairs, like the fan clutch?

Odd it lost all motion with good fluid, did the RPM's ever rise during shifts, even just a few hundred RPM.

If any fan clutch work, could be the 5V reference signal, unlikely but possible.

Hopefully a filter or a simple electrical issue, shift solenoid, worst case the pump.
 

Thomeygun1

Original poster
Member
Jan 31, 2021
13
West Virginia
No fan clutch work since I've had it. It shifted fine up until that point. I'm hoping it's just a filter.

It was dark cold and pissing down the rain when I checked the fluid so that analysis might be a little off, I thought it looked fine though.

From what I've read, shift solenoid would be unlikely too right? Being the way it gave out?

Thanks for the help btw
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
The shift solenoids are unlikely, but just don't rule them out until the last resort, easy to change but wait to check other things first.

The change or no change in fluid level will tell alot.

Check it cold, engine off, then start engine and engage reverse or D before rechecking fluid level. If it engages a gear, it's likely the filter (hopefully) and not a clutch pack.
Then check the fluid level again, wiping the dipstick each time, check both sides.

There's likely some other options I'm not aware of to check, but these should get you started.
 
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Thomeygun1

Original poster
Member
Jan 31, 2021
13
West Virginia
UPDATE: changed the tranny filter and still nothing. Found a bunch of metal in the tranny pan and fluid was clearly burnt up in the light. So unfortunately I think I am going to get a rebuild or a new transmission.

Again thanks for the help it is much appreciated.
 

Mike534x

Member
Apr 9, 2012
923
@gmcman Even if the fan clutch was bad, his being an 08 with the thermal it wouldn't cause problems still would it?

UPDATE: changed the tranny filter and still nothing. Found a bunch of metal in the tranny pan and fluid was clearly burnt up in the light. So unfortunately I think I am going to get a rebuild or a new transmission.

Again thanks for the help it is much appreciated.

Ouch! Sorry to hear that. Sounds like you came across all the clutch material and whatever else was taken with it. Rebuild might be cheaper depending on the shop, I would definitely shop around and get some quotes.
 

Thomeygun1

Original poster
Member
Jan 31, 2021
13
West Virginia
Yea I didnt expect it to be like that considering how it quit on me. There was about an 1/8 - 1/4 inch of debri on my magnets.
My brother said his 4L60E stopped the same way and the tranny shop said his torque converter took a shit but I know how shops can be.
 

Mike534x

Member
Apr 9, 2012
923
That's why I usually get more opinions from other shops, instead of just one. Though yours quitting without some sort of warning, like abnormal shifting and whatnot is really odd.
 

Thomeygun1

Original poster
Member
Jan 31, 2021
13
West Virginia
At the most it shifted into 4th gear too early going up hills which was very rarely. Other than that hiccup once in a while its always shifted perfect.
Yea I'm at least going to get a couple quotes or maybe just find a cheap one from a yard put it in and test my luck.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Be aware that there is usually a layer of gunk on the magnet. As the clutches wear over time, the fibers and steels will wear, along with magnetic material attaching to the magnet.

Now larger chunks of metal are a different story, did you get a pic?

Also, what about the fluid level? Did you compare it to cold/engine off to engine running?
 

Thomeygun1

Original poster
Member
Jan 31, 2021
13
West Virginia
It was all fine material on the magnets. When I did the fluid level check it all looked the same before and after warm up but there was to much fluid in it to begin with it looked like.
I'm going to pull a tranny line tomorrow and see wether its pumping or not.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
A fine, slimy, silverish goop on the magnet is normal.

Just to be clear, the fluid level test was not cold and hot, but engine off and engine on.

The fluid level will rise when warm.

If the pump has come apart, or similar, then the fluid should be the same level on the dipstick when running compared to when the engine is off.

If you say the fluid looks brown and smells burnt, then we could be just confirming the inevitable.

I've had some darker fluid on an older TH350 that kinda smelled...somewhat cooked, and went for awhile.

When you select 4HI or 4LO, can you hear BOTH actuators in succession? One behind the RF wheel, and the other at the transfer case?

Would also be a good idea to rule out if the transfer case has gone into neutral.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,327
Ottawa, ON
Just for reference, if it was an electrical issue, it would go into limp mode and still run in 2nd gear and throw a bunch of codes. So even if you were to unplug it, it would still move.

And a problem with the 5v reference that is sometimes caused by the electro-viscous fan, which the 08-09 do not have, would put it in Reduced Engine Power mode.

When you get a loss of all gears and it's not the shift cable, it usually spells a dead tranny.
 
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Reprise

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TBH, the first thing I thought of when I saw this, was 'sunshell'.

For the OP... usually when this goes, you'll hear a fairly loud noise when it happens (because metal parts have sheared off / apart). If you were at highway speed, which it sounds like you were, perhaps you didn't hear anything. But when it goes, it takes out all the gears, because the front and rear planetary assemblies reside in that component (that's why it's called a 'sun' shell - the sun gear of the trans lives in that area, along with the smaller planetary gears)

Anyway... if it is the sunshell, it's a full rebuild (or replacement). To rebuild, the trans has to come out, be fully taken apart (the sunshell lives at the back of the case), damage assessed, new parts put in. There are aftermarket shells which are hardened and won't shear, like the factory one may have done with yours. You'll also want to replace normal wear parts, like the clutch packs and band, and a corrective shift kit (replaces other wear parts in the valve body). Finally, adding an auxiliary trans fluid cooler will supply maximum insurance against overheating, especially if you live in a hot summer climate or you do any towing.

The cheapest option is to source one from a junkyard and swap it in, as-is. That might run anywhere from $250-$800 or so, depending on source / condition, and if you do it yourself / get a buddy. A shop will charge labor, plus markup on the trans, for sourcing it for you. If you can afford it, put in a new torque converter (stock equivalents run about $200). The reason for that is 'cheap insurance', since a used one can have burnt internals, or metal 'trash' in it that will spread around to the rest of the trans & potentially destroy it. And if rebuilding, always put in a new converter.

If you get to pick the vehicle your junkyard trans comes out of, look for one with collision damage (the thought being that it was running when the vehicle met its end.) A vehicle with no body damage is probably there because something expensive in the driveline broke, and the owner judged that it wasn't worth the spend to fix it.
Biggest downside with this option, of course, is that you have little (if any) warranty. Might last as long as the rest of your truck; might fail in a week. Crapshoot.

Rebuilding a trans is not for a novice (and requires some specialized tools), so you'll need someone to do the rebuild, if you go that route.

A rebuild will run anywhere from $1800-up, depending on how many / what parts get replaced, and who does the work. (the hardened sunshell runs about $150-200 or so). That will include labor, which should be quoted as a flat-rate job. Mine ran $1900, but that was a few years back, and I got a good rate from an independent shop I trusted. Plan for $2000-2500 or so. Try to avoid the franchise shops like Aamco and similar, if you have a choice -- you'll pay more, and just get a 'factory equivalent', WRT parts used. Not to mention that the skills of their techs can vary widely, to put it nicely, provided they rebuild it in-house.
The advantage with rebuild, is that you'll get some sort of warranty with it (I got 2yrs with mine).
If done correctly, addressing the few known issues of the 4L60e, it'll outlast the rest of the truck (as long as you keep the fluid / filter changed every 50,000 miles, minimum).

A third option is to get a reman shipped from a company (Monster Transmissions is one company, to get you started, although I've not heard good things about them, lately). These come via freight, and you either pick up the trans at a local trucking yard, or they'll provide liftgate service to your curb / garage (built into the delivery charge). Then you have someone install it (and these places will usually insist on you using an 'approved' installer from a list they provide, or you forgo warranty). While these places will use the better parts, you can imagine that this is the most expensive option, all-in. Prices will probably start at $3000 / up, and may not include installation fees.

The 4L80e is considered a very good trans (even though GM built them cheaper & less reliably as time went on), especially compared to similar transmissions from F**d and Chrysler from the same time period. It's worth the spend, if you want to fix it, and especially if you put in the 'good' parts, if rebuilding it. You have 153K on the engine; if you keep up with the oil changes, replace a few items as they wear, etc., you can get another 100K miles out of the truck. Rust is a factor, if you live where they use salt on the roads in winter. Since these sit a bit lower to the ground than even a 1/2 ton pickup, the frame areas rust easier. Body panels can be repaired / replaced. A frame rusting out is usually 'the end'.

Our fingers are crossed that you won't need a full rebuild / replacement. But I'd get my mind set that it probably will be needed, if I were you.
 

Thomeygun1

Original poster
Member
Jan 31, 2021
13
West Virginia
I think I'm going to buy a rebuilt 4l60e. There's a couple around me with the converter for 550 and 700. The $700 says it comes with warranty but how do I know it will fit my truck? Also they just say 4l60 not 4l60e. Did they make electronic and non electronic versions or something?
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Sorry, but you haven't replied about the fluid level with engine running vs. not running.

Also, have you verified the encoder motor in the transfer case? Would be a bad deal if the transfer case was in neutral.

I'm not doubting your expertise, but check these things first.

What is the source of the rebuild? Do they provide a statement on what's been replaced? I believe your year trans MAY require one for an 08-09, not sure, hopefully @Mooseman can chime in.
 
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Thomeygun1

Original poster
Member
Jan 31, 2021
13
West Virginia
Well I'm just kinda preparing for the worse but I will run those test here in a little bit. When I did the fluid level test with engine running vs not running it didn't appear to move. Also note it was outside pissing the rain down and 32 degrees so I will try it again tonight in the garage.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
If the fluid level does not move, you can pull the passenger side trans line going into the radiator. Be careful not to lose the metal clip attach a 5/16 ID hose over the line and place nto a bucket. It will come out fast if the pump is still working, so have somebody hold the hose.

I absolutely get it you want to check for another trans, I would also. Just want to be sure it's nothing you can repair with the trans still in the vehicle.

I'm basing this on the fact there were no issues before you lost every gear. No slipping, banging, clunking, just immediately good to bad.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,327
Ottawa, ON
All the 4L60e will fit. Might have to swap the bellhousing and torque converter if it's from a V8 truck. As far as the different years, I don't really know. I think there was an internal change in 07+ or maybe the connector. You would have to check an interchange manual for fit.

$700 for a rebuilt? Sounds shady.
 
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Thomeygun1

Original poster
Member
Jan 31, 2021
13
West Virginia
Well I took the transmission line off on the passenger side at the bottom of the radiator, started it and ran it through the gears and no fluid came out. I gave it a couple minutes and some revs.

Does this tell me i just need to drop the transmission and change the transmission pump? Also is it something your average joe weekend mechanic can do?
 
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TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,900
Colorado
As far as the different years, I don't really know. I think there was an internal change in 07+ or maybe the connector. You would have to check an interchange manual for fit.


I had read somewhere that in 2006 the 4L60e got an input shaft speed sensor. Did our platform get this?
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,327
Ottawa, ON
Does this tell me i just need to drop the transmission and change the transmission pump? Also is it something your average joe weekend mechanic can do?
To me, most internal repairs of a tranny is black magic. It may just be that easy or need more voodoo than the average Joe can muster. Hopefully pump shrapnel wasn't sent everywhere.
 

Thomeygun1

Original poster
Member
Jan 31, 2021
13
West Virginia
I feel the same way moose. I'm just going to replace it I think. I'm going to call around tomorrow though and get some quotes.

If getting it rebuilt or replaced by a shop is too much I'm just going to try to find one and put it in myself.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
You will need a long extension, and a good swivel socket, not the universal joints+socket, but a good swivel socket.

As far as the pump, I'm not well versed in the design or features. I don't know if there would be a pressure release valve in the pump, valve body, or both.

Personally, I would call Dana at Pro Built Automatics, he will return your call if it goes to his machine. I don't know of anyone else I could recommend that doesn't know these transmissions inside and out, he wrote books on them.



Also, just want to fill in another blank, when you said you lost all the gears and made it to a parking lot, how much distance did this involve? Did you just pull over, or limp it to a lot?

Just trying to see if there was an extended drive with no or little trans fluid pressure, which could easily smoke a clutch pack.

Dana will be able to direct you to what else to look for, may get lucky with a cracked accumulator piston which could bleed off all the pressure.

The valve body works by relieving pressure on one side to operate the valve, the pump provides constant pressure. HOPEFULLY, there would be a piston you could check in the valve body to be the root cause.

Call him before you start removing the trans.
 
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Thomeygun1

Original poster
Member
Jan 31, 2021
13
West Virginia
Well I was going up hill it gave out, so I coasted backwards to the nearest parking lot. I've came to the conclusion that I'm going to get another transmission, new converter and slap it in.

Does anyone have any good write ups about swapping out transmissions?
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
I'm with you on replacing it, especially if you plan on keeping it, nothing wrong with peace of mind. Just for sake of discussion, do you have a pic of the fluid? Was it red or slightly brown or dark and burnt?

Look into the torque converters before you pull the trigger on one. The converter in the 4.2L vehicles are commonly referred to the "Trailblazer converter" and I believe have a unique characteristic of size and stall speed.

I would HIGHLY recommend new trans cooler lines, (4 pieces) and before you raise the new trans into position, install the two new rear lines into the case at that time and just work around them. They are a huge PITA to reach once the trans is back in place.
 
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