Need engine: Pull from PickNPull or Buy already pulled?

Sparky

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Dec 4, 2011
12,927
Wait wait... If you're replacing all the sleeves and all that crap... screw that noise. Hone the bores. If the sleeves are bad enough you can't do that, just replace the darn thing.

I don't think Lime is looking for a practically brand new factory fresh engine here (correct me if I'm wrong of course). Most engine rebuilds are not going to that extent. That sounds like overkill.
 

cornchip

Member
Jan 6, 2013
637
Did some research and......... I don't think I'd personally make the trip for the 64,000kms engine I'd mentioned. Look's like a shifty garage listing the motor rather than a proper auto wreckers in a crap part of town. Toronto just sucks these days.
 

limequat

Original poster
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Dec 8, 2011
520
Yeah, Sparky, I think you get where my head is at.
I could get a 2008 crank for ~$100. Crank/main bearings, and rings would be around $200. I'm certain that my sleeves and pistons are reusable.
I'll admit that I had forgotten about all the TTY bolts that I need to replace.

Some of the benefits of rebuilding:
* I can replace the TTY bolts with stronger, reusable hardware so future work will be easier
* I have the opportunity to port the head, regrind cams
* I can mill an access hole in the block for the timing chain tensioner

Also, as a reminder this is going in my Supra which has a number of custom parts. So I will be changing the oil pan, oil pickup, valve cover, and injectors no matter which direction I go
 

mrrsm

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I'm sorry to constantly be The Bearer of Bad News... but unlike some other Engine Applications that allow you to switch to ARP Studs and other Re-Usable Fasteners... this Atlas Engine expands and contracts at such a high rate as to either Snap Off any non-TTY Fasteners or they'll wind up pulling the Head Bolts or Crankshaft Bolts along with the Thread-Liines; stripping them clean out of the All Aluminum Engine Block due in part to the Atlas Motor having a Greater than 10 to 1 Compression Ratio. At the very least ... they could cause the Head Gasket to lose its seal to the Block and leak as well.

Think of this engine as an Aluminum Balloon that MUST have the flexible movement of the TTY Bolts to keep it all together during innumerable Heating Up and Cooling Down Thermal Cycles. But.... If you do somehow manage to do this... you will be the FIRST... and so a decent Write-Up should follow along with any such unique achievement. Best of Luck with making this idea happen.
 
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limequat

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Dec 8, 2011
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Pretty sure efi-diy (Marc at emtechmotorsports.com) has been running ARP for many years. I'll have to check with him on that point.
 

mrrsm

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Absolutely... Don't take my word for it.
 

Sparky

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Dec 4, 2011
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People run strong boost and such on aluminum LS blocks so the block material in of itself shouldn't be a factor. Now, some things like block length might be.
 

mrrsm

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Well... if you are saying that an All Aluminum I-6 can be compared to an All Aluminum LS V-8 Performance Engine when Turbo-Charged... The only thing these two Engine might have in common is that they are both made from Aluminum. They also do not share any of the same critical V-8 TTY Fasteners.

But as a better example... the White Paper done years ago by the Japanese on the problems created in designing very long block vertical cylinder engines involved them making the odd choice of using a Single Atlas Engine Cylinder and Crankshaft Section in order to study the effects of "Torsional Whip" this unique engine develops due to its very lengthy Crankshaft at higher RPM.

It took some real Engineering Moxy to add in an off angle - 20 Degree "Off-Set" in the Crankshaft Counter-Weight Throws during engine rotation BTDC to counteract this bizarre twisting, torsional phenomena. Nothing like this problem is present in the V-8 Engine Block designs. That fact in and of itself should be enough to disqualify bringing in the behavior of an augmented, purpose built Turbo-Charged V-8 Engine of any flavor to compare with the GM LL8 Motor under similar performance conditions. In this case... it like comparing Limes to Cumquats... (Pun Intended). :>)
 

Sparky

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Dec 4, 2011
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I was not talking of a purpose built factory boosted LS. Just any old aluminum block LS v8.

You said the aluminum cannot hold those non tty fasteners without breaking something. My only point was the aluminum in of itself would not be the issue. I did say there are certainly other varying factors that could be an issue (inline vs V, block length and forces on the crank, etc), but not the block material.
 

mrrsm

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This is a helpful article on the topic:

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2005/07/perfect-engine-sealing-starts-with-proper-head-bolt-use/

.... and the only other thing I can think of mentioning that will be productive and non-argumentative on this topic is this:

If you install ANY Fastener into ANYTHING made of Aluminum that is Drilled and Threaded to any Depth equal in Dimensions to a similarly sized and shaped piece of Cast Iron or Steel... in every case... If Non TTY Fasteners are used in both applications... the Bolt Holes in the Aluminum substrate will fail well before the Cast Iron or Steel will fail if both substrates are Heated to Engine Operating Temperatures that would be present adjacent the Bolt Holes in the average Cylinder Head. This will happen in due course for Three Reasons:

(1) For Blocks of Metal having an Equal Mass... Cast Iron and Steel are Three Times as Strong as Aluminum.

(2) When Heated... Aluminum Expands at More Than Twice the Rate of Cast Iron and Steel. Cast Iron and Steel Expand and Contract at a tiny rate of only 1/64 Millionths of an Inch per Degree Fahrenheit... whether Heating Up... or Cooling Down.

(3) These above two dynamic problems will render the rigid, Non-TTY at a disadvantage as they will tend to snap clean off due to an ingrained inability to resist such a dramatic expansion from Aluminum.... However due to the 3 Xs Stronger Nature of the Cast Iron or Steel and their resistance to having such a dramatic Expansion Rate... When the same amount of Heat is applied ... The Ferric Metals will NOT expand to such a degree as to threaten the Rigid Bolts with Breaking Under Heat Induced Stress.

I am looking forward to what @limequat 's friend has to say about this...and whether or not he is referring specifically to the GM 4.2L Atlas Engine ...and not a different platform. We are Brothers here at GMTN.... and should never be at odds with one another if we can get the best available information and facts on the subject and ensure that if this method gets tried by anyone rebuilding on this Aluminum Inline Engine Series ... that they don't inadvertently experiment with something that will cause them much difficulty and expense if things go sideways.
 
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efi-diy

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Dec 9, 2011
32
I've been running ARP studs in my turbo'ed 4200 for 8 years now. These are 1/2" head studs.

The engines been apart several times over that period for issues with rod bearings (initially) and a blown up compressor wheel that sent metal through the engine.

The studs are torqued to 95 ft/#.

The stud/block interface is marginal due to the length of the stud engagement. If the studs were engaged 1/2" longer this would not be a problem. The stock TTY head bolts engage the block over 1/2" more than the studs.

I monitor the head stud/nut torque during tear down and on the odd stud found a decrease in torque one time after making 600 Rear wheel FT/# on the dyno. There was some thread fatigue (studs were hard to get out) on that stud.

To date I have not had to heli-coil any of the head studs. If the engine need to come apart again I will be installing helicoils on all positions as a preventative fix. This will increase the thread surface area and eliminate the thread issue.

If I was to start over with a fresh build I would get custom studs made up with a 1/2 -13 x 1.5" block engagement length and a 10mm dia shank. This would allow a higher dynamic clamp load without having to go to 120 ft/# on the stud which the block substrate will not tolerate.

I worked on the Black Opel we ran at Bonneville and Dick (engine builder) found that with the same studs I'm using, above 110 ft/# stud torque, the block material would move.

To the other posters comments, the head is the part that expands under heat and the head thickness at the bolt boss is about 110mm. Assume that the engine is built at 20*C and operates at 105*C this is a delta T of 85*C
https://www.amesweb.info/Materials/Thermal_Expansion_Coefficient_of_Aluminum.aspx

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-thermal-expansion-d_1379.html

The head expands ~ 0.007" at the bolt boss interface. Which increase the dynamic clamp load of the stud.

The stud also expands but only ~ 0.003 to 0.004" so the real change seen at the stud is 0.003 to 0.004" (head - stud). One would have to do the detail calc's to determine the load change at the bolt/block interface to determine the stress load at the interface.

I think there is a mechanical engineer on the board that could do the calc's.
 

mrrsm

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Thanks for the follow up on your achievement... AND for the partial Write-Up. This is obviously something only those with a lot of care and deep mechanical experience should attempt. As for choosing to use any Heli-Coils. If I may suggest a better alternative... I have personal, successful experience with using the TIME-SERT SYSTEM Tool Kit specific to the Atlas Vortec 4200 Engine Block to repair a FUBARed Head Bolt Hole adjacent the #1 Cylinder on a 2002 GM 4.2L LL8 Engine Block. I was amazed at how very straightforward the procedures were and how successful the job was.

While the Kit is ordinarily excessively pricey... I lucked out and bought a Used Complete Kit from a woman over in Deltona, Florida for $275.00. Here is a link to all of the procedural images that you might find interesting, too. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever of the better efficacy of using the TIME-SERT System would be over any Short Heli-Coil Installation:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126111508@N07/albums/72157671220350188/page2

As an interesting Side-Bar... TIME-SERT also has a Specialty Kit specific to the LL8 Engine to allow for the replacement of ALL of the Crankshaft Main Bore Holes with TIME-SERT Inserts. When using the SERTs (about $10-$15 A Piece) for both the entire Upper Block... and for the Bottom End... those longer, self-contained SERTs are some very strong technology and should seriously improve the Strength and Reliability of that Aluminum Engine Block:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126111508@N07/albums/72157671220350188/page2

Thanks Again for the Prompt Reply...and would you recommend your use of studs over TTY with a Complete "HOW TO" for the Step By Steps with Photos that you followed when time permits? There never seems to be enough information about High Performance Enhancements around for these aging Atlas Vortec 4200 Engines. Here are some videos to cover the background on using the TIME-SERT SYSTEM:



 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
I'm no engineer but I can say that when the venerable 69 COPO Camaro with the all aluminum 427 came out, there weren't TTY bolts then and there were no problems will pulled threads or broken bolts .
 
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I_Shoot_Back

Member
Feb 18, 2018
116
Ponoka
I've been running ARP studs in my turbo'ed 4200 for 8 years now. These are 1/2" head studs.

The engines been apart several times over that period for issues with rod bearings (initially) and a blown up compressor wheel that sent metal through the engine.

The studs are torqued to 95 ft/#.

The stud/block interface is marginal due to the length of the stud engagement. If the studs were engaged 1/2" longer this would not be a problem. The stock TTY head bolts engage the block over 1/2" more than the studs.

I monitor the head stud/nut torque during tear down and on the odd stud found a decrease in torque one time after making 600 Rear wheel FT/# on the dyno. There was some thread fatigue (studs were hard to get out) on that stud.

To date I have not had to heli-coil any of the head studs. If the engine need to come apart again I will be installing helicoils on all positions as a preventative fix. This will increase the thread surface area and eliminate the thread issue.

If I was to start over with a fresh build I would get custom studs made up with a 1/2 -13 x 1.5" block engagement length and a 10mm dia shank. This would allow a higher dynamic clamp load without having to go to 120 ft/# on the stud which the block substrate will not tolerate.

I worked on the Black Opel we ran at Bonneville and Dick (engine builder) found that with the same studs I'm using, above 110 ft/# stud torque, the block material would move.

To the other posters comments, the head is the part that expands under heat and the head thickness at the bolt boss is about 110mm. Assume that the engine is built at 20*C and operates at 105*C this is a delta T of 85*C
https://www.amesweb.info/Materials/Thermal_Expansion_Coefficient_of_Aluminum.aspx

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-thermal-expansion-d_1379.html

The head expands ~ 0.007" at the bolt boss interface. Which increase the dynamic clamp load of the stud.

The stud also expands but only ~ 0.003 to 0.004" so the real change seen at the stud is 0.003 to 0.004" (head - stud). One would have to do the detail calc's to determine the load change at the bolt/block interface to determine the stress load at the interface.

I think there is a mechanical engineer on the board that could do the calc's.


You said you had rod bearing issues initially, did you find a proper solution to keep them alive?
 

efi-diy

Member
Dec 9, 2011
32
Rod bearings

combination of dynamic rod bearing loading + better oiling - changed to a cross-drilled 05 crank + direct feed the main oil gallery externally from the oil filer output.

I'm aware of timeserts. If I could get them at a decent price.

Using heli-coils - I'll stack 2 or 3 to get full length engagement on the stud.
 

I_Shoot_Back

Member
Feb 18, 2018
116
Ponoka
Rod bearings

combination of dynamic rod bearing loading + better oiling - changed to a cross-drilled 05 crank + direct feed the main oil gallery externally from the oil filer output.

what is dynamic rod bearing loading? Also,is the 05 crank cross drilled stock or you had that done/diy.Why 05? And could you elaborate on the how to in the direct feed externally? I understand what your saying but all these details can help a lot of us turbo hungry guys. :smile:
 

mrrsm

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@efi-diy ...Marc.... Just an FYI... but according to this array of available TIME-SERT Tool Kits and SERT Sets... the Prices on them has Dropped like a Stone. In particular would be the M10 X 1.5 SERTs (15 per Bag for only $28.65) for the BMW that matches the (14) Stock Crankshaft Bolt Hole Dimensions for the Atlas 4200 to a "T"... with one to spare!
1539618690564.png


It might be Worth an Engine Builder's While to visit eBay and scour this link and stock up on these items (Kit & Kaboodle) ...while the Getting is Good:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=time-serts+m10+x+1.5&_sacat=0
 
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efi-diy

Member
Dec 9, 2011
32
Thanks

I'm running 7/16 ARP studs with a billet crank girdle plate instead of the factory halo.

The main caps are hollow doweled the plate - which is tied to the side of the block using the pan bolts.

Next time I have the engine completely down I'll dowel the plate to the side rails also.

Just a note - the only GM parts in the bottom end are the block/main caps and crank.
 
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efi-diy

Member
Dec 9, 2011
32
what is dynamic rod bearing loading? Also,is the 05 crank cross drilled stock or you had that done/diy.Why 05? And could you elaborate on the how to in the direct feed externally? I understand what your saying but all these details can help a lot of us turbo hungry guys. :smile:


The 02 - 05 cranks were fully counter-weighted, I got lucky the end of the 05 production service cranks were cross-driiled - they were testing the setup for the 06 up cranks.
Yes you can get any 02-05 crank cross-drilled.

Direct feed - I designed and had made special fittings to feed oil into the block replacing the oil gallery plugs. Years ago I offered these up - limited interest.

In my opinion the oiling system on the 4200 has a restriction in the feed to the #2-#7 main gallery from the filter. The engine feeds the rod bearing forward. e.g. #7 main feeds #6 rod bearing.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/inlinersvortec/files/4200 oil flow - raw video/

google search enginelabs Ron Bohn article on the rod loading issue.

Also I'm running BHP SFI damper - Jeff Wieser paid for BHP to design the balancer.
For those that don't know this the 4200 has a bad crank harmonic problem from 6300 to about 7200 rpm. Once past this the crank is fine. BHP has a dual mass balancer designed but they are not cheap - close to US$800. This gets rid of 98% of the harmonics. Critical if you need to run the engine frequently (race) through this rpm range.

Jeremy - you need to take a drive up and talk to Ron - your just over 2 hours from him, with the end of the race season at hand - he should be easier to get hold of.

lot of archived info here

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/inlinersvortec/photos/photostream
 
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mrrsm

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For those of us who might be unfamiliar with these access points to the Main Oil Galleries in the Atlas Vortec 4200... this image highlights where those Aluminum H-10 Oil Gallery Plugs are situated (plus the unseen one facing the front of the Block adjacent the Oil Filter Manifold). These do look like the perfect places to install some augmentation Oiling Lines to supply those particularly 'Thirsty Bearings' with some additional Pressurized Engine Oil.

GM42LOILGALLERYPLUGS.jpeg

Marc.... Mr. Ron Kociba,,, The Chief Design Engineer of the GM Atlas Inline Engine Series should have had YOU on their Design Team... then perhaps it would also NOT have become necessary to have to remove the Oil Pan to take the Timing Cover off of this engine... among the other performance improvements you would probably have made to Bullet-Proof this motor!

Here is an article about him from 2000 in the Florida Orlando Sentinel Newspaper:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2000-09-21/news/0009210429_1_engine-inline-four-valves
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
That was an interesting article. However, this part got my attention:

The new inline-six will replace GM's 4.3-liter V-6 in the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra pickups, and the Chevrolet S10 and GMC Sonoma pickups.

Guess they had lots of plans for this engine. I could have seen it in the full size pickups however, S pickups would have been quite impossible unless he was talking about the 5 and 4 cylinder versions.
 
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mrrsm

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I just remembered that when I was working on designing and building "The Franken-Oiler Machine" for Pre-Lubing newly assembled engines... the Adapter Device Marc created for his Engine is presently (in part) available commercially from "Auto-Meter" Part # 2268. This thing could be exchanged in one... or all of the Main Oil Gallery Holes threaded into the outside Passenger side of the LL8 Engine Block. I took these images way back then and note that while already threaded in SAE/NPT... Marc would have to advise on how extensive 'The Plumbing" would need to be ...and precisely How Large their Inner Diameters would have to be in order to deliver enough Fresh Oil at 65 PSI.

It will be important to consider that doing this must be done in a manner that winds up helping and NOT hindering the improvement of Main Bearing Lubrication by accidentally and literally "Cooking" the Motor Oil as it passes through any of the Copper/Brass Tubing-Plumbing Lines that get exposed to the excessive amount of Radiant Energy soaking into the Oil Line of either the Engine Block... AND/OR any Oiling lines also feeding into and out of the Bearing Housing(s) of Turbo-Charger(s)..

I can envision using this as the means to create access to any piped connection ported to an Analog Oil Gauge fed through a Shielded Copper Oil Line passing the Engine Firewall to be able to see what the REAL Oil Pressure is under Idle to High RPM Race Conditions. But the Piping/Hosing would probably need Thermal Protection using either Fibre-Glas Spark Plug Heat Sheathing...or Thin Fabric Header Wrap to keep the Header or Exhaust Manifold Heat Soak from damaging the routed tubing, etc. These are not very expensive and are still available for purchase via Amazon:

GMOILGALLERYPLUGADAPTER0.jpgGMOILGALLERYPLUGADAPTER0A.jpgGMOILGALLERYPLUGADAPTER6.jpgGMOILGALLERYPLUGADAPTER2.jpgGMOILGALLERYPLUGADAPTER1.jpgGMOILGALLERYPLUGADAPTER3.jpgGMOILGALLERYPLUGADAPTER5.jpgGMOILGALLERYPLUGADAPTER4.jpg
 
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mrrsm

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About your Solid Girdle Installation you created ... a Brilliant One... and reminiscent of the (6) Bolt Main outer two "Thru-The-Block" Block to Main Cap secondary support bolts for more bottom-end stability found in the LS Engine Blocks. Very Clever Idea. I had one other Question (Una Pregunta Mas...) concerning whether you are still using the OEM MLS Style of Gasket or whether you needed to have an adjustable "quench" using some type of custom soft or Pure Copper Gaskets to achieve tolerable compression levels and still maintain the cylinder seal integrity?
 
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mrrsm

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Thanks to @limequat bringing in @efi-diy into this Thread and adding the information about using SAE Studs... I decided to Pull the Trigger on getting the TIME-SERT "Kit and Kaboodle" of Qty (15) M10 X 1.50 X 24MM SERTS as well and also a pair of Qty (10) SERTs per Packet of M10 X 1.50 X 20MM sized SERTS as well.

The idea here is that since I already have the 04' Bare Block mounted on the Engine Stand rigged up to R&R the OEM Cylinders with Melling OEM semi-finished Replacement Sleeves... I might as well take the time and document the Step By Steps of using the TIME-SERT Procedures to Drill Out the Crankshaft Main Bolt Holes ...and perform a Fresh Installation of SERTS in all (14) of them to Bullet-Proof that part of the Engine.

After all ... Right now... I'm knee deep into this Motor already... and going this extra mile certainly cannot hurt anything if I do the work as per my prior experience. I'm confident that it will make installing the Head Bolts easier and eliminate any chance of accidentally breaking the New Cradle Bolts to achieve the Proper Torque and TTY Levels with greater accuracy and strength in the long run.

The Kit has already arrived this evening, so I took these images viewable from my "Flickr-Bucket" at the link below. I also purchased the very reasonably priced Guide Plate meant for a VW-Porsche application that I'll drill out and modify to hold the Knurled Bolt Hole Guide with more stability than the one in the Kit that is meant for use on creating SERT Threaded Steel Holes @ M10 X 1.50 "shorty" Lengths in Aluminum Crankcase Oil Filler Drain Ports. All of this will eventually be photo-covered for GMTN posterity in my other Thread:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126111508@N07/albums/72157701032583401
 
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JayArr

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Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
Thanks MRRSM, The engine is hanging on a hoist right now but I've got a spare engine stand that I can assemble and put it on for the procedure. As for having some of the valves leak, that's a simple solve, I'll do the cylinders that have two closed valves, then when they are clean I'll rotate the crank to close some others and do them and then rotate again etc etc until they are all done properly. No need to do all 6 at once if some patience will produce a better job.

Is there any danger of some "chunks" of carbon being freed up by this stuff but not making it out of the chamber? I wouldn't want damage later because some carbon got freed up and then jammed under a valve keeping it open. I don't have a camera to look inside the cylinder to make sure.

Have you actually done this to an engine yourself?
 
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mrrsm

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The Answers are YES.... WITHOUT using the ACDELCO TEC...

There is one thing (it's almost funny... now that I think about it...) that WILL cause ENORMOUS Chunks of semi-circular rings of Greasy, Oil-Fuel Soaked Carbon Chunks to drop down when freed up from around the Valve Seats inside of every cylinder. This WILL happen under the Extreme Violence necessary to Beat The Hell out of the (14) Primary Head Bolts (Cap Screws) using an Impact Grade H-10 Socket fitted into the top of each Head Bolt and a Ball Peen Hammer to loosen them up enough NOT to have ANY TTY Bolts Snap Off inside of the Engine Block.

Then... while using a "Sacrificial Adapter" plugged into the 1/2" Square Hollow of the H-10... they all get POUNDED on with a Hammer to attempt to loosen all of the Head Bolts prior to trying to Unwind them to Remove the Engine Head. The incredible vibrations induced throughout the Engine Head and Lower Block WILL soon dislodge those Carbon Rings and other fractured plates of Carbon Residue loose from the Upper Combustion Chambers and have all of the Carbon Crud fall down on the top of each Piston Head.

This is of course, a Fools Errand... because almost without fail... at least a few of those (14) Head Bolts WILL Snap Off due to the Necking Down the TTY Bolts went through during their OEM Installation experiencing some serious 'plastic deformation' to achieve a "Full Nelson" that will eventually make many of them "Tap" Out (pun intended) and Snap Clean Off at their weakest sections of the Bolt Shank when being unscrewed.

...and NO... WITH using the ACDelco TEC in sufficient amounts and time of soaking exposure:

The Carbon Busting qualities of the ACDelco Top Engine Cleaner cannot be over-emphasized... and it bears repeating that it is NOT the Carbon that is the Physical Left-Over portion of Carbon "ASH" Build-Up that the TEC acts upon ... but rather the Organic Compounds from the Oil and Gasoline Residues that are mixed in with this sturdy stuff that allows it to congeal, congest and then Bake On Hard to the Piston Tops, Upper Combustion Chambers and the circular grooves around all of the tiny 24 Valve Seats that causes the by-products of incomplete combustion to "stick" and grow in size over the lifetime of passing Volatile Mixtures of Fuel and Air that have been burned under enormous pressure and temperatures.

ACDelco TEC...DISSOLVES THOSE ADHERENT CHEMICALS down into a THICK, SOUPY BLACK MUNG... that can ever so easily be wiped off with ease by using a soft Micro-Fibre Lint Free Cloth if the Engine Head gets removed ... or ...in the case of having the Intact Engine left for a good while ...Upside Down... will allow Gravity to do the rest of the Horrible Black Porridge Drain Down into a LONG CARDBOARD BOX covered with a Garbage Bag and shaped like a Rectangular Fish Pond to capture all of this Noxious Stuff.

I recommend that you do NOT allow this work to be done INSIDE OF A CLOSED GARAGE... as this TEC is such a strong enough solvent that inhaling the vapors can damage your Liver, Kidneys and Lungs when breathing in the concentration of its VOCs for ANY length of time. (Remember... No Kids, Dogs or Ogling Neighbors should be present while this Clean Out is going on). Here is where all of that Carbon Mung Chunks wind up after a "Good Thrashing" on the Head Bolts. And if you examine all of the tear Down Images at this link ...you will see from the cleanliness of the Pistons in many of the images showing my using the TIME-SERT Kit ...just how Pristine Clean all the Pistons came out after soaking them in ACDelco TEC for a Day or So

http://s557.photobucket.com/user/60...NEREPAIR/TRAILBLAZEREPAIRTOOLS?sort=3&page=11

Please bear in mind that I have assembled a VAST Library of GM 4.2L Engine Images in a whole raft of unique categories that are publicly avaiable HERE as well:

http://s557.photobucket.com/user/60dgrzbelow0/library/0000TRAILBLAZERENGINEREPAIR?sort=3&page=1

Here is an Image of my 2002 Chevrolet Trailblazer 4.2L Engine after removing the head (Post Pounding) and observing these Mysterious Carbon Chunks down inside the Cylinder... Highlighted inside of the Red Circle in the attached Image:

GM02TB42LENGINECARBONCHUNKS.jpg

GM02TB42LENGINECARBONCHUNKS.jpg
 
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JayArr

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Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
It sounds like this GM product is similar to 2+2 Instant gum cutter by Berkebile, Nasty stuff but works like a dream!

What I've got is a clean, running engine. I haven't impacted or hammered on the head bolts at all so whatever is in there should be stuck to whatever it is stuck to.

I think before I do something like this I'll try to find $100 to buy a camera or borrow one so I can snake into the cylinder to see what it looks like. In theory pouring this stuff in and rotating the engine sounds good but the number of times in my life that I've been bitten hard in the ass trying to do shortcut repairs has taught me to be sure there's a problem before taking a chance. If I stick a camera in there and it looks like your pictures I'll pull the head and clean it properly. If it doesn't, if it's fairly clean I think I'll leave well enough alone. The last thing I want is to think I'm spending an hour doing a quick clean only to lose compression in a cylinder and have to pull the head anyway. It would only take one chunk in one cylinder slighly larger than the exhust valve clearance to have me pulling the engine all over again.

I'll see if I can take pics inside the cylinders and post them up.

BTW, I got 11/14 of the head bolts out of the last engine while removing the head while the engine was still in the car. I thought that was pretty good. I think I could do even better with an engine out of the car because the rear bolts would have better clearance for hammer swings. The remains of the three that broke came out easily enough later with a reverse twist bit on my air drill, they just reversed right out of the holes, I had a hard time believing it was that easy, I should have bought reverse twist bits years ago!
 
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mrrsm

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For anyone else thinking about which way to approach this R&R... Please consider quite a few more excellent reasons to PULL THE HEAD OFF THE ENGINE... BEFORE... PULLING THE ENGINE. In the first instance... it provides immediate and MUCH easier access to remove those Two Damned High Transmission Bolts and speed the "Remove" portion of the R&R Repair Process along.

Many others have argued that performing an Engine Head R&R with the Motor still inside of the vehicle avoids all of the "Engine Yank Agonies"... But I would argue against that philosophy for these reasons why you should consider doing these jobs while the Doing is GOOD:

In other words... While The Change is EZR on the Engine Stand.

(1) You should Change The Timing Set & Timing Chain Tensioner
While The Change is EZR on the Engine Stand.
(2) You should Change The Motor Mounts
While The Change is EZR on the Engine Stand.
(3) You should Change CPAS, CPS & CKP Sensors
While The Change is EZR on the Engine Stand.
(4) You should Change The TC Cover, Gerotor Oil Pump& Oil Pick Up Tube"O" Ring
While The Change is EZR on the Engine Stand.
(5) You Should R&R the Oil Pick Up Tube and Soak the Screen in Gunk Engine Carb Solvent
While The Change is EZR on the Engine Stand.
(6) You should Change the Rear Oil Seal and Flex Plate if it is Cracked
While The Change is EZR on the Engine Stand.
(7) You Should Change the TC Cover Front Crankshaft Oil Seal
While The Change is EZR on the Engine Stand.
(8) You Should Remove any Broken Off Head Bolts or Exhaust Manifold Bolts
While The Change is EZR on the Engine Stand.

Since you are NOT going to be tearing down any of the Rotating Assembly Components... it just makes Good Common Sense to perform ALL of these other tasks... While The Changes can occur EZR on the Engine Stand because they are either Very Difficult or otherwise Impossible to do with Engine Installed in the Vehicle.
 
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mrrsm

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Okay… even though the following material relates to my own Engine Swap (Re-Build) Thread on the “04’ to 02’ GM 4.2L Engine...” I wanted to at LEAST cover the latest additional information with New Images since we recently discussed the subject here about the possibility of “Installing M10X1.5X24 MM TIME-SERTS in the (14) Crankshaft Main Bolt Holes” The Latest Imagery is at the Link Below to show just how very straightforward this “Atlas Vortec 4200 Engine Bottom End Bullet-Proofing” can be:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126111508@N07

I took one of the M10X1.50X24MM New STEEL SERTS and stood it up on top of one of the Stainless Steel Block Mains Dowel Pins with the Engine Block inverted ...to determine whether or not the OD of the Outer Threads of the SERT matched up close enough to be able to carefully extract those Dowel Pins that plug with Precision into the bottom of all the Crankshaft MAIN CAPS.

BESTSERT2GUIDEPINVIEW.jpg

I have not as yet Miked all of these dimensions out… but from the looks of how things line up… there seems to just enough room to make this work. But I won’t know for sure until I figure out how to remove one of those S/S Dowels and introduce the SERT THREAD TAP into that Free Space just above the Thread Lines in the Engine Block and NOT have it leave so much as a Scratch on that smooth cylinder space.

The other question that needs to be answered is “Exactly How Long are the Thread Lines Inside of the Crankshaft MAIN Cap Bolt Holes?” I puzzled about this for a bit…. But it seems that based upon the presence of Black Built Up Engine Varnish on portions of the Thread Lines on those OEM Bolts I removed from the 04’ Swap Engine … the ACTUAL Contact with Threads only goes down to about 30 MM or so to the bottom of the Threaded Portion of the Bolt Shanks .

Now this is VERY important ... because of necessity ...when installing TIME-SERTS into Blind Holes in Aluminum Engine Blocks which IS the case here with the GM 4.2L LL8 Engines… There MUST be a Free Space of at LEAST (6) MM (or about 1/4” SAE) from the very Bottom of The Main Cap Holes in the Upper Engine Block. This open area down there allows enough room for that Special SERT Installation Tap to pass through the threaded inside of the SERT until the Flange at the Top of it makes solid contact with the Counter-Sunk area at the surface of the Engine Block Crankshaft Support Buttress down in the Bolt Hole ...and then STOPS.

Then it follows on that the SERT Install Tap has to be turned a few more times to pass the expansion nose of the Tool completely THROUGH the SERT… swelling and locking it in place by Cold Forging and Expanding those Last Few Threads.

If this can be done so that afterwards… those S/S MAIN CAPS Guide Dowel Pins can be re-inserted over the submerged SERT Flange ...and then drifted all the way down to make accurate contact at the proper OEM depth over the Counter-Sunk SERT Flange again… then THIS Job is Definitely Well Worth Doing!

When I was threading in the OEM Used Crankshaft Bolts into the vacant Crank Main Cap Holes to see just how far down they would go… I could NOT believe how LOOSE the Bolt Thread to Threaded Bolt Holes were! In fact … I only needed to use my Index Finger and Thumb to twirl them all the way down to the very bottom of the holes.

So THIS is yet another reason to install those Crank Main Bolt Hole SERTS and allow the Brand New OEM TTY Bolts the chance to enjoy the Smooth, Reliable and Strong action that can only come with “Steel on Steel”. I will need to determine whether ...or what kind of Engine Fastener Lube can or should be used.... or NOT. This link will take you to the TIME-SERT Folder on my “Flickr-Bucket” and you’ll see how neatly those TIME-SERT M10X1.50X24MM SERTS mated up lengthwise to those OEM Old Bolts:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126111508@N07
 
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mrrsm

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I did some more research after thinking about how easy it would be to FUBAR the Crankshaft Main Cap mating Aluminum surfaces in the Upper Engine Block and most importantly the Alignment of the Main Steel Caps to the Upper Block "Clam Shell" contact areas... and THIS Tool seem to be the Best Option for solving this problem:

I think that this is the Most Likely Tool to work on the Atlas Vortec 4200 Upper Interior Engine Block and uniformly pulling out all (14) Dowel Pins with a "Slide Hammer'" is probably the least likely approach to either damage the Block Main Buttresses or end up distorting the Dowel Guide Pins.

This Specialty Tool is Very Rugged and has enough variation in size options to fit over the 13 MM OD of the Dowel Pins. And for the amount of aggravation it might save me... (14) Times in a Row... it also seems modestly priced and is available on Amazon as well as from Motion Pro:

Motion Pro Dowel Pin Puller (Solid and Hollow)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01IE4PC6A/?tag=gmtnation-20

MOTIONPRODOWELPULLER.jpgMOTIONPRODOWELPULLERA.jpgMOTIONPRODOWELPULLERB.jpgMOTIONPRODOWELPULLERC.jpgMOTIONPRODOWELPULLERD.jpg
 
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mrrsm

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There is another Excellent Reason to Install the Complete Crankshaft Bolt SERT SET of all (14) into the Upper LL8 Engine Block Bolt Holes and that speaks to the issues of the need to use Plasti-Gage on all (7) Crankshaft Journals with EACH Main Bearing Cap properly Fastened Down to allow the thin Wax Lines placed on all (7) Jornals and achieve the proper stock pressures under which to expand and produce a TRUE OIL LUBRICATION CLEARANCE MEASUREMENT for each and every one.

Well... in Conventional Cast Iron Engine Blocks... installing the New Fasteners and Torquing them down for this important confirmation is a Breeze... and ordinarily ...this Poses NO Threat to the condition and stability of the either Engine Bolts or their Thread Lines inside of each Engine Block Bolt Hole. Unfortunately... such is NOT the case when trying out this desirable Pre-Assembly Method for such necessary clearance confirmation inside of an All Aluminum LL8 Engine Block.

The two problem areas involve the fact that unless (1) ...you possess a Duplicate Set of (14) GM TTY Crankshaft Bolts to sacrifice to this task ... then you will need to use NON-TTY Bolts for the procedure and (2) ...hopefully, follow the Recommended FelPro Torque Table Guidelines found in THIS Document to achieve the right amount of Main Cap Pressure:

(I recommend that you Download and KEEP this PDF handy for future reference)

http://oldwayrod.com/images/Felpro_torque.pdf

In this Example... the TTY Specs are for the LL8 Head Bolts:

GM42LTORQUETTY.jpg

GM42LTORQUETTY.jpg

It would have been nice if the GM Engineers had done the "Initial Tightening + Torque To Yield" Calculations to come up with a Standard, Pre-Assembly "Absolute Ft/Lb Number" to use in this situation... because otherwise... the Engine Builder is just making a Best Guess as a compromise to achieve the desired level of snugness.

However... The RISK OF PULLING OR STRIPPING BOLT HOLE THREADS is greatly diminished in the manner of have the TIME-SERT Inserts properly installed and MORE than capable of tolerating a higher range of tightening that will exceed what the ordinary Tapped Aluminum Bolt Bores would be able to handle inside of any "Stock as Clock LL8 Engine Block".

The last option here of course is to simply ignore taking these measurements and assembling an Engine by Guess Work that may come back to Haunt The Engine Builder when the Main Bearings seize to the Crankshaft Journals... and spin freely inside of a Newly Built Motor. Then the whole, crazy, complicated and expensive process has to be done ...all over again.

A while back ... I had obtained some Chrome Steel Bolts in the M10X1.50X70MM and M10X1.50X100MM range in anticipation of trying to solve the "Plasti-Gage" conundrum ...and when the New SERTS have all found a Home in the Upper Innards of my Stand Mounted Engine... I'm confident in being able to put all of these ideas... to the test.

Nonetheless... I should very much like to consult with "The Legendary Mac" @m.mcmillen for his expert ideas and suggestion on this matter.
 
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JayArr

Member
Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
If you think about it you should be able to use the old bolts to do the Plasti-Guage test.

In order for the Plasti-Guage measurement to be accurate all you need is to tighten the bolts until the cap is flat against the block. If you can't get a 1 thou shim in between the cap and the block then your reading will be accurate to within 1 thou, if you can't get a .0005" shim between the cap and block your reading will be accurate within .0005" etc.

Think of two scenarios:

1) Using new TTY bolts you tourque the cap down so that the bolt is the tourque in the manual plus the number of degrees the manual calls for (60 for eg). The gap between the cap and block will be non existant, you won't be able to slide a 1 thou shim between them. The Plasti-Guage will read the gap between the crank and the bearing. This cost you the price of a set of TTY bolts since they must be tossed when you remove them to read and clean the Plasti-Guage.

2) Using bolts that have been previously used you tourque the cap down so that it is tight against the block, I'm thinking the tourque in the manual plus 1/2 the number of degrees the manual calls for (30 instead of 60 for eg). The gap between the cap and block will still be non existant, you still won't be able to slide a 1 thou shim between them. The plasti-guage will read the gap between the crank and the bearing. This cost you nothing.

I'd bet the reading you get from the Plasti-Guage will be the same in both scenarios, it is after all only measuring the clearance between the crank and bearing with the cap on tight, additional clamping force on the cap after zero clearance isn't necessary and won't change the crank gap so there is no reason to spend a bunch of money to achieve the added clamping force the TTY bolts exert.
 
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mrrsm

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Actually... I can't use either the Old TTY Bolts ...or the Brand New, Updated Felpro versions either as my intent it to fit the Main Caps to the Journals Halves in the Block... Solo... Without the Cradle being installed... hence my obtaining the Chrome M10X1.50X70MM Bolts in advance of the task.

But I do agree that since preliminary process of performing the Plasti-Gage Checks happens when the Engine Block, New Bearings, Crankshaft and Main Bolts will all be sharing the same reasonable Ambient Temperatures... with none of the Thermal Dynamics of High Engine Temperatures present for the brief amount of time is takes to perform this task ...your idea about using the designated GM OEM Torque Specifications... in this case... cautiously modified for the MAIN CAPS to avoid harm to the Engine Block makes perfect sense.

Those GM OEM Specifications are 18 Ft/Lbs followed by 180 Degrees of TTY Torque Angle....and halving the TTY to 90 Degrees for the Torque angle makes good sense. I doubt that this will exceed the ability of the Chrome Bolts to tighten the Main Caps held by the SERTS and will still be enough to "Put The Squeeze" on the Plasti-Gage...and get (7) proper Journal Clearance Readings.

By the way... I penned what is arguably a Very Comprehensive Document on the GM LL8 4.2L Engine Specifications as a GMT Nation Thread. I tried to include as many of the Component Tolerance and Fastener Torque Specs as possible that I could discover, so I think that this link is worth copy-pasting over into a LibreOffice Writer Document because it may prove very useful for your own project. Thanks again for your considered suggestion! :>)

https://gmtnation.com/forums/threads/the-gm-vortec-ll8-links-and-specs-library.16738/
 
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limequat

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Member
Dec 8, 2011
520
Wow, this thread went on some tangents :smile:

So I'm back at it. Yesterday I scored a 2009 4.2 out of a Saab 9-7x w/120k miles. I got to hear it run after the junkyard had already cut the catalytic converter out. The sound reminded me of why I love this damned engine.

The pic is the engine coming home in a rented Home Depot pickup. Gotta say, $20 to rent a truck for an hour is a sweet deal.
 

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Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Complete with PCM too. Nice!
 

JayArr

Member
Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
So Limequat, if I'm assessing this correctly you now have a 4.2 with a spun bearing but a good head right? Care to sell the head? I've got a good bottom end with a bad head. I've even already bought a new head gasket and new head TTY bolts because I hoped the gasket was all that was blown. Maybe I can help offset the price of that engine you just hauled home.
 

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