Micro scratches on the paint

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
Do any of you guys know how to get rid of the Micro Scratches on the cars paint. When the sun hits the paint at a certain angle you can see like spider webs almost assuming that is from a towel or something. A buddy of mine said wax will fix that, true? Or should I clay bar also?
 

jrSS

Member
Dec 4, 2011
3,950
Only thing that will fix that is. .....a porter cable and a cutting pad with some polishing compound. Hand waxing wont do shit for the spider webbing or any wax in general. www.adamspolishes.com
Welcome to the world of having a black vehicle
 

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
Yeah black is the biggest pain in the ass to keep up with. No idea how a micro fiber towel caused those in the paint. Not happy about it. What the heck is a porter cable? You think the swirl remover polish will work?
 

jrSS

Member
Dec 4, 2011
3,950
Youve gotta make sure all dirt is off the vehicle before drying it off.
 

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
Got ya! I think I am still going to clay bar the car and wax it because I think it needs it, car is some what dirty. Also Can't I use a drill and put a polish head on there? I have seen people do it but don't know how good it is to do
 

DocBrown

Member
Dec 8, 2011
501
jrSS said:
with some polishing compound. [/url]
Welcome to the world of having a black vehicle

Ohh, no. Not polishing compound. Its too course to remove micro scratches. Use a body shop quality micro polish instead. 3M makes a good one that you can buy at NAPA stores that mix paint. Follow with a good quality wax and your black paint will pop. I used to have a black '95 Suburban. It was the only way to keep that beast looking good.

ItsOnVoy said:
Got ya! I think I am still going to clay bar the car and wax it because I think it needs it, car is some what dirty. Also Can't I use a drill and put a polish head on there? I have seen people do it but don't know how good it is to do

No, you don't want to do that, especially with any kind of polish because its abrasive. If you hold it in one spot too long it'll burn through the paint. use an orbital buffer and move it in small circles so that you never rest on one spot. Work in small areas of no more than 2 square feet so the polish doesn't dry out too fast.

You'll see a big improvement with a clay and wax job. But you have to use good wax. I prefer paste waxes. They just seem to fill in the micro scratches really nice. But with black, you have to wax more often to hide the micro scratches.
 

jrSS

Member
Dec 4, 2011
3,950
Ok polish....wtf ever. I use meguiers polish. The synthetic stuff.
 

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
DocBrown said:
Ohh, no. Not polishing compound. Its too course to remove micro scratches. Use a body shop quality micro polish instead. 3M makes a good one that you can buy at NAPA stores that mix paint. Follow with a good quality wax and your black paint will pop. I used to have a black '95 Suburban. It was the only way to keep that beast looking good.



No, you don't want to do that, especially with any kind of polish because its abrasive. If you hold it in one spot too long it'll burn through the paint. use an orbital buffer and move it in small circles so that you never rest on one spot. Work in small areas of no more than 2 square feet so the polish doesn't dry out too fast.

You'll see a big improvement with a clay and wax job. But you have to use good wax. I prefer paste waxes. They just seem to fill in the micro scratches really nice. But with black, you have to wax more often to hide the micro scratches.

So a clay bar job and wax will help at least. Because there is a ton of them through the car and really annoying me and I know its my fault from the towel (learned the hard way). I have paste wax which is what I use anytime I do wax the car. But I do not want to wax the car a ton of times just to keep the scratches from showing, I want them gone for good which seems like a buff will do but I do not have anything to do that right now. Might have to wait till next summer when it gets warm again.

Autozone will have some polish that removes scratches, wont that do the trick for these simple ones? I just don't want the ruin the clear coat or the paint itself

jrSS said:
Ok polish....wtf ever. I use meguiers polish. The synthetic stuff.

I have meguiars wax myself
 

xtitan1

Member
Jun 5, 2013
467
The term for what you are describing is "swirls".
How-To Remove Swirl Marks
View attachment 31021
(Picture Credit: Mike Phillips, Autogeek, http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...chings-other-surface-defects-your-camera.html)

These are random, shallow scratches that go in every direction all over the paint. When you look at the reflection of a light source, the scratches in the paint around the image of the light source will catch the light and reflect it back, making it appear that there are cobwebs or circular scratches all around the light source. You will need to abrade the paint to remove these. Swirls are a very common problem with cars. Using those automated car washes, using dirty towels on the car, even just normal wear and tear from driving around can cause swirls.

You use a polisher, such as the Porter Cable 7424 XP, to ever so slightly abrade away the paint to bring the surface to a flat, even level.

Dual Action Orbital Polisher Guide: how to remove swirls, scratches, & oxidation with an orbital buffer. Porter Cable 7424, foam pads, backing plate,

Also, I disagree with above posters saying he needs a polish and not a compound. A polish is just going to round the edges of the scratches, not abrade the paint down to the level of the bottom of the scratches, which is what you want and it was what compound is designed for. Before doing any of this, you need to wash the car and clay it so you aren't just rubbing contaminants around with your polisher. If you don't own a polisher and don't have a friend who does, or you don't have any desire to do this yourself, find a local reputable detailer who does "paint correction" which will include swirl removal as part of the service.

If you want to know more, I highly recommend that autogeek site. They have plenty of guides, as well as a highly active forum. The head of instruction for their company also is a heavy poster there with over 40k posts. They also have like 250 instructional YouTube videos and several e-Books.

How to Articles - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum

I don't have experience with 3M compound, but they aren't a go-to in the polish/compound world.
 

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rcam81

Member
Dec 3, 2011
209
Onsted, MI
I have used a Porter Cable 7424 for years. I use Meguiars SwirlX 2.0 followed by Meguiars Ultimate wax. I have a red jewel tint TB and a black Grand Prix and the paint on both comes to life when I am done.
 

DocBrown

Member
Dec 8, 2011
501
ItsOnVoy said:
Autozone will have some polish that removes scratches, wont that do the trick for these simple ones?

Not by hand. You'll be disappointed and frustrated if you try it by hand. As xtitan1 said, use a machine even if you have to borrow or rent one.

xtitan1 said:
I don't have experience with 3M compound, but they aren't a go-to in the polish/compound world.

I guess I haven't learned much then in 34 years of restoring and painting cars. BTW, Autogeek sells a number of 3M products.
 

xtitan1

Member
Jun 5, 2013
467
DocBrown said:
I guess I haven't learned much then in 34 years of restoring and painting cars. BTW, Autogeek sells a number of 3M products.


You only use polish to remove scratches? What are you using compound for, then? Your statement about compounds being "too coarse" to remove scratches doesn't make any sense, 34 years or not. I do recommend following up with a polish after the compounding, but not instead of the compounding.

And I am aware autogeek sells 3M compounds and polishes, along with 100 other brands' compounds and polishes, that doesn't mean they are a "go-to" polish for detailers. Now, take that as you will because we recently had a discussion on here about everyone's love affair with M105/205 and how it's overrated in practice. If 3M polishes work for you, more power to you, and maybe I will try them myself then on your recommendation.
 

xtitan1

Member
Jun 5, 2013
467
Another resource for you:

[video=youtube_share;OgSLEVi_SPg]http://youtu.be/OgSLEVi_SPg[/video]
 

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
Thanks a ton for the input guys that helps a lot. xtitan1 thanks a lot for the links they help me a lot. I got some reading to do with them lol Now when you apply this compound to help remove the scratches how much does it hurt the clear coat or does it hurt it at all? Will this hurt it in the long run? From what I know when you wheel the car it heats up the paint and helps it blend right?

Brand wise I really like meguiars stuff, I have there clay bar and wax (paste) and I have seen amazing results so I might go with that compound brand and get there swirl remover. Too bad the Porter Cable is a bit costly, I might have to see if a buddy has buddy as one I can use or something. Learned from my mistake and won't be getting these scratches again like now. Or at least as much as I have now.
 

xtitan1

Member
Jun 5, 2013
467
ItsOnVoy said:
Thanks a ton for the input guys that helps a lot. xtitan1 thanks a lot for the links they help me a lot. I got some reading to do with them lol Now when you apply this compound to help remove the scratches how much does it hurt the clear coat or does it hurt it at all? Will this hurt it in the long run? From what I know when you wheel the car it heats up the paint and helps it blend right?

Brand wise I really like meguiars stuff, I have there clay bar and wax (paste) and I have seen amazing results so I might go with that compound brand and get there swirl remover. Too bad the Porter Cable is a bit costly, I might have to see if a buddy has buddy as one I can use or something. Learned from my mistake and won't be getting these scratches again like now. Or at least as much as I have now.

Yeah no problem.

If you can't borrow, a cheaper option is the Griot's Garage 6" polisher. It's recommended in the video above for people who's budget doesn't allow for the PC.

No, heating up the paint is very bad - that's what you want to avoid. That's the reason they make the dual action polishers now because the rotaries require a lot of experience to use without heating up the paint. More on this in the video above.

Does compounding "hurt" the clear coat? It makes it look better by taking out the scratches. But I think what you are asking is, does compounding abrade the clear coat. The answer is yes. That's how it works. The scratches are little sharp valleys in the clear coat. The polisher used with compound abrades away the clear coat until all of the clear coat is lowered to the level of the bottom of the valley of the scratches, so now there are no more scratches. Typically, paint these days is about 6 mils thick. I'd say you have about 3 mils of that to play with (extremely rough estimates). Optimally, you would protect the paint from getting scratches in the first place right off of the dealer's lot and never need to abrade the paint.

Obviously that's not always done, and therefore compounding is necessary to get out the scratches that were induced. However, you wouldn't want to be compounding very often, because it is abrading the paint and you don't have an infinite amount of clear coat on the truck. Once you correct the paint, you should protect it with a sealant and/or wax, and avoid automated car washes and dirty towels being used on the truck so that you don't incur any additional scratches and you don't require additional compounding. This is what I did with my truck.

Meguiars is a good brand. Everyone raves about the M105 compound and the M205 polish which would be a good combo for you. Now, some people may get carried away with the hype, but nonetheless I think these will get the job done for you. Do LOTS and LOTS of reading on that website. And watch that video, I know that guy - he's a good dude.

Again it's Wash -> Clay (with lube) -> Compound with polisher using a test spot to get the least aggressive method that gets the results you want -> Polish -> LSP (last step product, either paint sealant and/or wax)


My personal method was

BF WD Conditioing Shampoo w/ dual grit guard bucket method -> mother's clay w/ DP Clay Lubricant -> BF WD SRC Compound w/ Flex 3401 and 5" Hybrid Orange pad -> BF WD SRC Finishing Polish w/ Flex 3401 and 5" Hybrid White Pad -> BF WD All Finish Paint Protection Paint Sealant -> Collinite 915

Not having the scratches and having the surface be super smooth gives it this very wet look. Sorry for the crappy picture. Focus on the hood and how reflective it is, it's like ink:

View attachment 31032
 

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ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
xtitan1 said:
Saw this kit randomly and thought of you:

Griot’s Garage & Meguiar’s Paint Perfection Kit 3rd Generation!

Usually better deals can be had than what are on Autogeek, but that kit is a pretty good deal.

rcam81 said:

So these are the prices I should be looking for when I want to get one? There is a Lowes right by my house, might stop by and check them out
 

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
jrSS said:
Bought my pc 7424 online on ebay. That pad it comea with sucks balls!!

was it too stiff or something?
 

xtitan1

Member
Jun 5, 2013
467
ItsOnVoy said:
So these are the prices I should be looking for when I want to get one? There is a Lowes right by my house, might stop by and check them out


I'm not up on the latest prices of everything bro, I know the prices they list on Autogeek for them are probably pretty good but not the absolute best you can find. And you can always try to snag some crazy deal on craigslist or eBay for a used one.

Just be heads up about those links for the other PC products as I don't have any knowledge of whether those are good or not. If you go PC I would recommend going with the 7424. It sounds like that's not right for your budget though, so I would go with the griot's garage one I linked IMO. Autogeek has a good phone service to help you pick stuff or if you have a problem with anything.
 

DocBrown

Member
Dec 8, 2011
501
xtitan1 said:
You only use polish to remove scratches? What are you using compound for, then? Your statement about compounds being "too coarse" to remove scratches doesn't make any sense, 34 years or not. I do recommend following up with a polish after the compounding, but not instead of the compounding.

I was away for a long weekend. Thanks for the followup. Actually I didn't say just polish, I said micro-polish. Its one step courser than a swirl mark eliminator. I do respectfully disagree with the compounding, especially on older paint that's in generally good condition. If it needs it I'll start with a polish, go to micro-polish, then the swirl mark eliminator. Scratches, and I mean real scratches (not micro scratches like you picture shows), yes, compound. But more often than not I find polish works just fine without cutting too much off the surface.
 

xtitan1

Member
Jun 5, 2013
467
DocBrown said:
I was away for a long weekend. Thanks for the followup. Actually I didn't say just polish, I said micro-polish. Its one step courser than a swirl mark eliminator. I do respectfully disagree with the compounding, especially on older paint that's in generally good condition. If it needs it I'll start with a polish, go to micro-polish, then the swirl mark eliminator. Scratches, and I mean real scratches (not micro scratches like you picture shows), yes, compound. But more often than not I find polish works just fine without cutting too much off the surface.

Well, going with the least aggressive approach that gets you the results you desire is definitely a philosophy I agree with. The OP should definitely practice doing a test spot first so as to not waste time. If he can get them out with the micro polish, then definitely stay at a micro polish since that would be less aggressive. I'd just be worried he'd be making a lot of work for himself with a non-forced rotation tool like the PC and a product that wasn't very aggressive, and if it turned out he needed something more aggressive, he'd have to go and buy the compound anyway.

Considering he's starting his inventory from scratch, I wanted to suggest something that would definitely fix the issue. Also, because it seems he hasn't ever properly taken care of the paint, I doubt it's in very good condition and the clear has probably oxidized somewhat (clear oxidizes too, doesn't it?), and he probably has the original thickness of paint still on there to work with.
 

strat81

Member
Dec 29, 2011
399
jrSS said:
Bought my pc 7424 online on ebay. That pad it comea with sucks balls!!

You need a backing plate and pads that utilize a hook and loop (Velcro) attachment system. Autogeek has what you need, and they have kits available.

Foam colors vary by manufacturer, but you'll probably want a light cutting pad, a polishing pad, and a buffing/finishing pad. I'm a fan of microfiber bonnets that go over the pad.
 

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
Just to make sure this is for my new car by the way and thank you a ton on all the helpful info you guys gave me. I did speak with the dealership since I just got the car and after a bit of bugging them etc etc I got the manager to approve a detail one more time on the car. I guess they do not usually do this but let it go for me. The detailer will wheel it etc. But he said he cannot promise that they won't be there after the wax and all goes away. Going to hope for the best on it then
 

xtitan1

Member
Jun 5, 2013
467
ItsOnVoy said:
Just to make sure this is for my new car by the way and thank you a ton on all the helpful info you guys gave me. I did speak with the dealership since I just got the car and after a bit of bugging them etc etc I got the manager to approve a detail one more time on the car. I guess they do not usually do this but let it go for me. The detailer will wheel it etc. But he said he cannot promise that they won't be there after the wax and all goes away. Going to hope for the best on it then

Hey keep your fingers crossed man, sometimes the dealerships hire a bunch of idiots because they have so many cars and it would be too expensive to get someone good to do it
 

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
xtitan1 said:
Hey keep your fingers crossed man, sometimes the dealerships hire a bunch of idiots because they have so many cars and it would be too expensive to get someone good to do it

Most deff agree with you man, i am a bit scared but if they do happen to screw it up its on there ass not a random shop or myself. They will have to fix all of it on there cost and I am sure that's the last thing the dealer wants. Apparently the guy that is there that does the detail jobs has been there for like 30 years I guess, so i think I should be ok. Only thing is I just feel like they will do a half ass job you know but its free and better then nothing just going to hope it will be better then now. I dropped it off this morning and will pick it up in the afternoon. Ill update on how they did.
 

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