May have ruined my steering gearbox (recirc ball)

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In the middle of replacing most of my front suspension / steering components; currently in the process of removing the pitman arm. (note: if you're also replacing inner / outer tie rods, just remove the center / drag link, to give yourself more room). For the uninitated, the frame crossmember (non-removable) sits right under the gear drive shaft that the pitman mounts to, so a puller is practically useless, with the box in that position (I tried.) That leaves one with the following options:

- Disconnect the steering box (while immobilizing the steering wheel, lest you move the clockspring - for this reason, it became my least preferred option).

- Take an air hammer to the arm (I tried this, after reading about some success using it, and will NOT recommend it -- see below). Incidentally, there's a South Main Auto vid on YT showing our favorite mechanic using one on a Tahoe, which is where I got the idea.

- Use a cutoff wheel to cut away 90% of the arm from the shaft (parallel), then take a chisel & break the arm. (my next step, after making a trip to go get one. Thankfully, with the bigger compressor, I should be able to run one of these now (they use a ton of air.))

So... using the air hammer (on various spots around the circumference of the arm), I noticed that the end of the arm was starting to move / bounce when I'd pull the trigger (duty cycle for me seems to be about 5 sec 'on', then 30 sec 'off' to rebuild pressure). Great! Movement! Redouble efforts, and let's get this b!tch off!

Unfortunately, I found out that the 'movement' isn't quite up/down, it's side-to-side. So now the gear has lateral play, which I'm pretty sure it didn't have before putting the air hammer on it. What I'm worried about is that the 1/8th - 1/4 in play in the gear is now going to translate to a multiple of that at the steering wheel.

As Moose stated in a post a couple of years back, recirculating ball just isn't as 'tight' as R&P to begin with, and I can attest to that, as well. So making that even worse is unacceptable, in my book. And although the steering box has almost 250K on it, it was working fine, and had no leaks -- so I'm a bit reticent about just pulling out the parts shotgun & putting a new box on (and it would be new, not a reman, since the remans seem to be universally panned as crap.) But now I may wind up replacing the box anyway, later on, if the steering gets worse. (if any of you know for sure that I'm going to have to do it anyway, speak up). No, I'm not spending $400 (plus core) for a Redhead for this truck.

Not sure if this post was 'fyi', 'helpful hint', 'rant', 'time killer' -- make of it what you will. :laugh:
 

Mounce

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Mar 29, 2014
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Yeah she's probably cooked. You've got a 1500 right? I've done my pitman twice now, once on vehicle and once I took it out as a whole unit when replacing the box.

Trick is, remove pitman from drag link, unbolt the box from the frame, and move/tilt the box a little and you'll gain access with a standard pitman puller. Very little clearance but possible. Factory pitman arm just about whipped me when doing this, but amidst a breaker bar and 3 ft cheater it did eventually come off. I didn't have a good compressor nor a strong impact at the time, both of which would've probably saved me many tears lol.

The one I did off-vehicle was a walk in the park though with an impact.

*ps when shopping for the replacement box I couldn't find any straight reviews anywhere. Every brand had great and terrible reviews. I ended up going with Cardone from advance and it's been great for 10k or so that I've had it installed. Just thought I'd give you first hand review in case you struggle with decisions like myself.
 

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Yeah she's probably cooked. You've got a 1500 right?


@Mounce -- thanks for confirming my fear about the box; I've been thinking about it and resigned myself to that fact that I should probably replace it. Priced them out, and they are hella expensive for 'new'. :yikes: It's almost cheaper for a Redhead, believe it or not (I'll have to go back to their site and check out their warranty)

I have the 1500HD - which is really a 2500HD with a badge job, so it has the 2500 frame all the way to the rear axle (it sits 2in lower, and doesn't have the full-float axle; other than that, it's really a 2500HD). Anyway, that means there's a non-removable crossmember right underneath the pitman, unlike the LD 1500s. I must've watched 5-6 YT vids, and every one of the LD pickups were basically clear under there.

When it comes to parts, it's actually easier to just source for a 2500HD -- I had ordered a pitman for the 'old' Sierra that I sold (also a 1500HD), and got the wrong one (the LDs seem to use a 4-spline arm, while the HDs use a 3-spline). Still have it, if anyone needs one...

Anywho... I did figure out that I could remove 2 of the 3 bolts, and 'swing' the box. Shortest distance is forward, and I need about 2 in., I'd estimate. Only thing that worries me there is the steering shaft, as I'm pretty sure I'll have to disconnect it to get the 2". But -- I'll have to disconnect it to replace the box, anyway, so it's really immaterial now, right? LOL

There's also the matter of the send / return hoses that connect to the box, but I think they're flexible enough to move 2". No one mentions having to disconnect those -- only the steering shaft. And everyone warns about the clockspring, when you separate the steering shaft from the box.

It's easy enough to strap down the steering wheel to the brake pedal, while I R&R the box.
Plus, if I replace the box, I won't have to worry about removing the pitman from the old one, so there's that.

Again, thanks for confirming about the shaft end play. Stands to reason that if I didn't see the arm bouncing when I hit it the first few times with the air hammer, then I wrecked the shaft assembly when it did start moving. And I was careful, too (at least, not to hit the splines on the shaft).

Burns me up to have to replace it, but... you live and learn. And now I have a 1 5/16 wrench to add to my tool collection (there's enough room to get the retaining nut off the shaft with the box in place). I should prolly keep it in my truck for self-protection, as it's "big enough to kill someone" with.
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
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Ottawa, ON
As Moose stated in a post a couple of years back, recirculating ball just isn't as 'tight' as R&P to begin with, and I can attest to that, as well.

Really? Although I can't remember posting it, it is true :biggrin:

And I think I also remember having to replace the pitman arm on my son's 1500 and the box had to come out, or at least unbolted and moved in a way to allow the use of a pitman arm puller. yeah, I remember that frame piece. Sometimes you just have to do it the hard way.

I've tried various bonehead shortcuts with basically the same results. Live and learn that not all shortcuts are created equal.
 
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Really? Although I can't remember posting it, it is true :biggrin:

Yeah... your post came up when I searched this site for 'pitman arm'... that's the only reason I knew...lol... (as if I'd remember, otherwise)

Looking at my choices, the AC Delco reman is only about $20 more than the Cardone, and reviews seem to be good for it, so I may go for that one.
 
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Mooseman

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I've had better results using an ACDelco reman PS pump compared to Cardone so well worth the extra money.
 

littleblazer

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Jul 6, 2014
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Is it a 3 spline or a 4 spline? I agree that it's probably cooked as well... brian is on his second redhead gear box on his truck... first one leaked like a sieve lol.

And as far as tightness, after I did the front end on the escalade it was every bit as tight as the trailblazer. The slop in the gear can be adjusted out via preload and then the rest is the pivot arms. I wouldn't have known the sierra or escalade wasn't rack and pinion had I not looked under them. They were tight as hell when new. :rotfl:
 

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Is it a 3 spline or a 4 spline? I agree that it's probably cooked as well... brian is on his second redhead gear box on his truck... first one leaked like a sieve lol.

And as far as tightness, after I did the front end on the escalade it was every bit as tight as the trailblazer. The slop in the gear can be adjusted out via preload and then the rest is the pivot arms. I wouldn't have known the sierra or escalade wasn't rack and pinion had I not looked under them. They were tight as hell when new. :rotfl:

It's a 3-spline. That's what I was saying earlier -- I had ordered one for Sierra #1 a couple of years ago; when it got here, I could immediately tell it wasn't the right one (too small, for starters). From what I see (of the GMT800s), the HD variants got the 3-spline; 1/2 tons got the 4-spline. But I could be wrong; wouldn't be the first time.

Re: preload / pivot arms... by preload, I'm guessing you're referring to the pitman gear lash adjuster - I found a procedure for that yesterday for 2011-16 2500 and 3500 trucks (and prolly adaptable to mine; the Saginaw gearboxes are old (but good!) tech).

But - what is the 'pivot arms' you're talking about? Curious.

And to add my own experience on rebuilding the front end on Sierra #1 -- everyone who drove that truck when I was selling it remarked on how good the front end steering / suspension was (so I guess I did a good job!). And I remember posting here after it had been sitting awhile & driving it again, how good it felt. So I've got that to look forward to, once I finish with this one.

Thanks for the heads-up on the Redheads. I think the owners of F**d and Ram pickups benefit from them, as their gearboxes are built differently (according to the Redhead company.) The Saginaw (GM) boxes have been around for a long time; their biggest issues seem to be leakage. Watched a guy rebuilding one on YT -- he had one from a late-60s Chevelle, and one from a pickup. Other than the way the pitman attached, they looked pretty much the same. Most of my GM beaters from the 60's - early 70's probably had them, TBH. And it tells you why GM continued to use them in the HD pickups, long after the 1/2 tons started incorporating rack & pinion -- they can take more punishment (not to mention that GM amortized the R&D on them 40 years earlier!)
 

Mounce

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Mar 29, 2014
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FWIW the 1500s don't have a removable crossmember in the front either.

-not one that I noticed or fooled with anyways. Being a different frame there's bound to be some different geometry though.
 

littleblazer

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Jul 6, 2014
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It's a 3-spline. That's what I was saying earlier -- I had ordered one for Sierra #1 a couple of years ago; when it got here, I could immediately tell it wasn't the right one (too small, for starters). From what I see (of the GMT800s), the HD variants got the 3-spline; 1/2 tons got the 4-spline. But I could be wrong; wouldn't be the first time.

Re: preload / pivot arms... by preload, I'm guessing you're referring to the pitman gear lash adjuster - I found a procedure for that yesterday for 2011-16 2500 and 3500 trucks (and prolly adaptable to mine; the Saginaw gearboxes are old (but good!) tech).

But - what is the 'pivot arms' you're talking about? Curious.

And to add my own experience on rebuilding the front end on Sierra #1 -- everyone who drove that truck when I was selling it remarked on how good the front end steering / suspension was (so I guess I did a good job!). And I remember posting here after it had been sitting awhile & driving it again, how good it felt. So I've got that to look forward to, once I finish with this one.

Thanks for the heads-up on the Redheads. I think the owners of F**d and Ram pickups benefit from them, as their gearboxes are built differently (according to the Redhead company.) The Saginaw (GM) boxes have been around for a long time; their biggest issues seem to be leakage. Watched a guy rebuilding one on YT -- he had one from a late-60s Chevelle, and one from a pickup. Other than the way the pitman attached, they looked pretty much the same. Most of my GM beaters from the 60's - early 70's probably had them, TBH. And it tells you why GM continued to use them in the HD pickups, long after the 1/2 tons started incorporating rack & pinion -- they can take more punishment (not to mention that GM amortized the R&D on them 40 years earlier!)
I drank a little too much before that one lol. It doesn't apply to our trucks but on the really old stuff you could set preload on the ball of the idler... so that would make the wheels harder to turn... theres parts on the floor of my aunts garage. Don't know what they came off of but they are set up that way.
 
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(responding to @Mounce 's last post... Littleblazer jumped in while I was writing this one...) :laugh:

Yeah... I didn't state it explicitly (rare for me...lol), but my inference was 'no crossmember' in that area on the 1/2 ton. On the 3/4 ton (or those with torsion arm), the LCAs connect to that crossmember, but that's the only thing that can be removed (which doesn't help for this, of course). On the 1/2 ton (800-series), the 'big' thing in the way is the anti-sway bar.

The idler arm is super easy on the 3/4 ton, compared to the pitman; I've done that twice now, and this time took me about 1/3 of the time to get it out, compared to the first time. But I do replace the arm & bracket as a unit, so I don't even separate them on removal.

Because I had disconnected the outer tie rods, and hadn't secured them back to the knuckle, I was able to just slide the entire center link out, once I'd gotten it free of the pitman. Had to use the pickle fork for that side; thankfully, I was replacing the arm to begin with, so I didn't care about the boot. And not having axle shafts or a diff up front definitely made things more roomy.

Off to validate 32 or 33 spline (tooth) on the shaft & get the replacement ordered up. While I'm waiting for it, I can start with the pressure lines on the steering, which I have waiting -- turns out the wetness on the driver's side undercarriage isn't oil -- it's P/S fluid. Will be nice to get that cleaned up & stopped.

A miracle I didn't blow the P/S pump (but I did fill the fluid awhile back, having found it low when I first got the truck). Since my truck has hydroboost, that would've taken out the brakes, too, so I'm very lucky, there. Hoping all of this will take out the slight 'delay' w/ brakes engaging that I have when I stab the pedal on a fast braking action (it's flawless on 'normal' braking... as 'flawless' as GM's traditional 'soft pedal' feel is... :frown: ... but I'm used to that feel, both on GMs & Hondas)
 
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Updating this thread...

Got the new steering gearbox. Didn't have too much trouble putting it in (it does take some effort to drive the intermediate steering shaft onto the 'stub' shaft on the gearbox, but a few minutes with a deadblow hammer and a flat screwdriver took care of that.)

The remaining problem is getting the old pitman off my old gearbox. Spent longer than I care to admit trying to get it off with the puller / impact (think: 1 sec runtime, yielding 1/16" or so of movement on the forcing screw in the beginning, followed by 20sec refresh time.) As time went on, I was able to get the screw to turn more and more -- and yet, when I finally gave up, it really didn't look like the arm moved that much off the gear. In the end, I think I broke the internal gear on the impact (the nice HF Earthquake we'd discussed in previous posts -- which is now out of warranty, of course).

Broke out the new $12 air cutoff wheel. Same problem as with the impact gun -- 1 sec of actual cutting, followed by a 20sec recovery time. It does cut, but I can see it would take just about forever at a 1:20 run / recovery rate. Although I did get real good at counting to twenty, between the rattle gun and the cutoff wheel :Banghead:

I think I'm going to just throw the gear & still-attached arm into the box and let the rebuilder worry about it. I'm sure I'm not the first person who's done that, and I certainly put the time / effort into trying to remove it.

Got the pressure lines replaced without too much trouble. Just need to finish hooking everything up & fill / bleed the system (after I finish reconnecting the centerlink / tie rod assembly).

Once I've got that done, I'll add one more post with some tips on the R&R. Maybe a few pics to go along with it.
 
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As promised, some observations...

- I decided to pre-fill the new steering gearbox and pressure hoses with P/S fluid, in hopes that it would ease bleeding. To get the fluid in the small orifices of both, I picked up a ketchup / mustard set of squeeze bottles at the dollar store (the kind that you'd find in a burger shack). These were more useful than a funnel, IMO.

- I had the front wheels off b/c of doing suspension R&R; the company supplying the gearbox recommended wheels off the ground to ease the turning back / forth for bleeding, etc. Makes sense.

- Filled up the P/S reservoir to the bottom of the 'neck', pulled the ignition & fuel pump relays, and cranked the motor for a few seconds while turning the wheel back / forth. After a few rounds of this, the level was right at the 'cold' mark. "Great!", I think. "I'm all set". Umm... not quite.

- Started the engine, and nearly immediately, I hear an unfamiliar sound. Get back up on my step stool to check fluid level...and it looks bone dry. That unfamiliar sound was the pump. Shut down the motor, and watched some fluid return to the reservoir, full of foam & bubbles. Let that settle down for a few minutes and refilled, again to the bottom of the neck. Started the motor again, and this time, the pump wasn't cavitating. Turned the wheel & movement was pretty smooth.
Shut off the motor & filled one more time. 3rd time was the charm; fluid level was stable (and no 'churn', either). Post-shutoff, showed no more foam.

- Haven't driven yet, due to a lighting issue (long story; should have parts today / tomorrow).

I do think the 'pre-fill' of the steering gearbox helped. The high pressure hoses, probably not so much.

Might as well fill up to the tippy-top of the neck on the pump reservoir, especially on that first start up.

I easily used 1/2 gal of P/S fluid, and I didn't 'flush' the system as advised (the old fluid that I pulled out with the suction gun looked just as clear as 'new' fluid, so I didn't bother with flushing. If you do, you'll probably use another 1/4 to 1/3 of a gallon to flush, so it's not a waste to purchase the P/S fluid by the gallon.

With the new hoses in, it's really nice to look underneath and see my perpetual 'wetness' since I got the truck now 'gone'. Thought for the longest time I had some oil leaks to rectify; all along it was P/S fluid from the HP hose. Now I survey the underside, and things are dry as a bone.

Was going to replace the low pressure hoses, but after inspecting them, they still looked very good. Plus I found out that the ones in the p/s cooler are crimped (like a HP hose); the molded replacements expect you to cut the hose & splice theirs in. Decided to leave that alone, for now. If they ever go, I'd lean toward replacing the p/s cooler as a unit (and the cooler itself only has light surface rust, so it's fine.)

Since the orifice tube that is at the end of one of the cooler lines is available separately, I did replace that, gaining a new o-ring in the process. And while others mentioned lubricating them, I had no problems with them at all. One came off of the old hoses, but I found it on the garage floor and didn't need to dig it out of what it was connected to.

If you do decide to replace the low pressure hoses, the three of them (for a Hydroboost system) run about $100 at Rock, which was the cheapest place I found them. For about $35, I picked up 25' of Derale 3/8" I.D. hose from Amazon, and was going to make my own low pressure replacements.
 
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