SOLVED! Just a Case of Crushed Bushings??

Blckshdw

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Nov 20, 2011
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Tampa Bay Area, FL
Was driving back to the office to drop off some coworkers, when we passed through an intersection I've been through a million times before (coming from 3 of the 4 directions), but this time from the 1 direction I never come from. There was a crest in the middle of the intersection, and some damaged asphalt after it, which caused a larger dip that usual. The front end didn't come up enough to catch air, but it came down super hard. There was a loud bang, and a scrape that I wasn't expecting :eek:

The truck seemed to drive fine the rest of the way, except it sounded much different when I went over any bumps. Got home, rolled under there to look around, and noticed the strut yokes appearing to be sitting lower than I thought they should be. Both sides are the same. Is this just a case of crushed bushings? Or anything more serious (ie expensive)

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Also noticed that the UCAs came up so much, that they cracked the fender liners front and back, same on both sides there too. :suicide:

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Sorry you had such a struggle. I've done 2 of these front ends and didn't have the same amount problems. Had one lower bj that required the BFH and heat and one capitive nut on a UCA break the tack welds. Both on the truck that had 1/2" play in outer tie rod on passenger side. Was like that when I bought it unsure how long it was like that. The previous owners also drove it for 2 years with a 171 code.

Reprise

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Top of the shock towers / bolts look OK? No broken springs? If things look good there, I think you'll get away with new bushings on those yokes. Not that it'll be any 'fun' to replace those.

I can only imagine how hard you bottomed out, to do that to both bushings. Ouch.
Having the extra weight of the coworkers contributed, for sure.
 

Blckshdw

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Nov 20, 2011
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Yeah, usually just me. 3 other riders, conservatively we'll call it 200 lbs each might have made all the difference there. Everything else looks normal, although I didn't remove the wheels and check the springs fully. Looks like the soonest I can get a new set is Monday, even from local stores cuz they don't stock them. You see any issues continuing to drive on them as is, much more gently of course, until then?
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,262
Ottawa, ON
More than likely they were on their way out and the hit just finished them. Can't make it any worse than they are now but they will need replacing. Probably a bitch of a job to replace them so might be worth it to go with complete LCA's.

Definitely check the springs. My son broke one on the EXT when he did some too exuberant off-roading. It was at the lower end near the perch and almost missed it. Never got to replace it before the tranny died and scrapped it.
 

Blckshdw

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Nov 20, 2011
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Tampa Bay Area, FL
Hmm, yeah that makes sense. Occasionally when I hit big speed bumps a little faster than normal, I'd hear a clank when coming down. I thought it was the springs compressing fully due to the lift spacers, but a near end of life bushing seems more plausible.

Just like with the transmission failure, comes on the heels of some large spending, so really bad timing, seeing how much more complete LCAs are. But at the same time, I don't want the hassle of dealing with stubborn bits. Ahh, decisions decisions...
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
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Ottawa, ON
But then as worn as they are, they might be easy? The spindle might just push out and leave you with just the bushing to deal with. But then, having done the other bushings, it's a bitch requiring a torch to burn out the rubber, a air hammer to punch out the old casing and a press to push in the new one. And with that spindle, you need a longer than normal spacer than what is in a balljoint press kit.

How are the other bushings? The ball joints? It might be worth it to replace the complete LCA's.
 

Blckshdw

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Nov 20, 2011
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Tampa Bay Area, FL
I'll have to pull the wheels when I get home after work this evening and give everything a good look. Was going to do that on my holiday break when I did the rest of the maintenance and brake check. I know the upper passenger side ball joint has a damaged boot, so the uppers were on the to-do list eventually.

I couldn't remember what people said the torch was needed for on the LCAs, I always thought it was the nut. (or was that for the end links? :undecided: ) I looked at GMSI last night and saw it said to torque to only 82 ft lb, so figured maybe locktite was involved? Burning out the rubber does sound like and annoying job, but not as bad as nuts/bolts that won't budge.
 

Maverick6587

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Dec 16, 2018
730
Sterling Heights, Michigan
I couldn't remember what people said the torch was needed for on the LCAs, I always thought it was the nut. (or was that for the end links? :undecided: ) I looked at GMSI last night and saw it said to torque to only 82 ft lb, so figured maybe locktite was involved? Burning out the rubber does sound like and annoying job, but not as bad as nuts/bolts that won't budge.

It's probably that yoke nut and the links. If you've never replaced them, they come stock with red loctite and heavy heat is required. I attempted to torch that yoke lower bolt once to replace just the yoke bushings and I called it quits pretty quickly. Even using an oxy/act torch, it wasn't looking good. I'm still pending replacing the LCA's because of those bushings.
 

Blckshdw

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Nov 20, 2011
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Tampa Bay Area, FL
I had the control arms replaced long ago before I was doing much of my own work, and I replaced the end links myself a couple years ago. Guess I should check those for any movement too. Now that I think about it, when I went to put the lift spacers in last year, I ended up separating the strut from the yoke, cuz that bottom nut didn't come off (quickly) when I put my cordless impact on it.

Last night I sprayed that nut with PB blaster, since I knew it would have to come off whether i tried just the bushing, or the whole arm, so when I am in there looking at everything else this evening, I'll put the impact on it again, see if it wants to move at all. If not, guess I'll be buying a torch this weekend too.
 
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Maverick6587

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Dec 16, 2018
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Sterling Heights, Michigan
If you don't want/need to spend much on torches (oxy/act). I would go for this MAPP/Oxy torch. It has come in handy a few times for quick small jobs, vs getting out an oxy/act torch.

It's about $50-$75 for the combo depending on seller/location. As long as you're indoors, it should work pretty easy for you. It worked "Ok" in a little wind outdoors, but it's pretty picky (low volume) with much wind.

If you purchase this... Make sure that you turn that O2 VERY slowly once you have the MAPP gas set. It tends pop if you bring the O2 in too quickly. As soon as you realize that it's a pretty simple torch. It's just not as easy to add O2 to this MAPP system as Acetylene is.


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Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
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You don't want to burn those bushings indoors. TRUST ME!
 

Blckshdw

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Nov 20, 2011
10,665
Tampa Bay Area, FL
Well gents, I'm pleased to say, no torch will be needed. PB Blaster for the MF win!!! :wooot: Got the wheels off, and both yoke nuts spun off in a few seconds without putting up a fight. @Maverick6587 maybe that will be the trick you need to move your LCA swap forward?

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Got my work light out this time, and up close, I can see just how far gone the yoke bushings are. Here's the driver's side front...

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Passenger side rear... None of the other control arm bushings that I could get eyes on, without taking more stuff apart, looked anything close to how bad these 2 are. But for the sake of not messing with trying to press in the new bushings, I'm just gonna go ahead and throw in some new arms and spring for an alignment.

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Hit all 6 of the LCA bracket bolts with some PB Blaster on the upper threads, let that trickle down. Don't think I'll get the new arms until mid week, so I'll probably end up doing the job Friday night, Saturday morning. Did notice the sway bar bushings have seen better days, shout out to @xavierny25 for giving me that set when he was in town, they will get put to good use shortly. :yes:

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And as previously mentioned, passenger side upper BJ has been done for a while. Driver's side looks fine, but will replace it anyway, just because.

20191205_170614.jpg
 

mrrsm

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Great Images... The lack of rust underneath there will make our Brothers in the Rust Belt jealous. At least this lets your Passengers Off The Hook for seeming to be "Food Giants" and Squashing the Hell out of those Bad Bushings. Also... Very glad to see that you replaced your Old Floor Jack. Looking forward to seeing the 'Post Op' Images when all of this hard work is finally finished.
 
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Blckshdw

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Get your bfh ready for the strut yoke. I had no issues with the nut but absolutely could not get the yoke off of the arm, even modified a pitman puller and chickened out when it started bending and just removed it from the pinch joint. I've since acquired a bfh.

An excuse to buy more tools, just what I needed right now :rolleyes: lol I was planning on doing exactly what you did, use a puller if it fought me too much. Who knows, as low as the yoke sits because of the amount of play in that stud, maybe it's already broken free. (shoulda gave it a shake test last night when I had the nut loose :duh: )

Great Images... The lack of rust underneath there will make our Brothers in the Rust Belt jealous. At least this lets your Passengers Off The Hook for seeming to be "Food Giants" and Squashing the Hell out of those Bad Bushings. Also... Very glad to see that you replaced your Old Floor Jack. Looking forward to seeing the 'Post Op' Images when all of this hard work is finally finished.

Well, the 2 who were sitting on the passenger side, are well fed we'll say, and that also happens to be the noisy side of the suspension so... :shhh:

That jack is actually my old one, it does look a lot better after wiping it down and cleaning it up. Even though I replaced one of the seals, there's still a leak, cuz there was a tiny puddle under it, in a different spot though. It lifts faster and easier since I topped off the fluid and bled it, but it still won't hold weight for too long. I actually plan on getting a different type of floor jack this weekend. Hope it works out the way I'm planning.

With the little amount of rust on the frame, etc., I'd replace just the LCA and the bushings. Replacing the bracket that holds the LCA turns the alignment into a giant pain.
Yes, MRRSM, I'm totally jealous of the minor amount of rust.

I was thinking about doing it this way to save a few $$$ since I went on a shopping spree last month. A little encouragement is all I needed, so thanks for the nudge.
 
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Mounce

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An excuse to buy more tools, just what I needed right now :rolleyes: lol I was planning on doing exactly what you did, use a puller if it fought me too much. Who knows, as low as the yoke sits because of the amount of play in that stud, maybe it's already broken free. (shoulda gave it a shake test last night when I had the nut loose :duh: )

I just got one of the cheapies from HF. Think it's the 4lb hickory handled variety. I've gave it hell and it isn't complaining or showing wear yet lol, well worth the money. I seem to remember the stud having a hex in the end like a end link stud and that scared me too not wanting to deform the starting threads using the puller.
 

Reprise

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Definitely the pitman arm puller for the yoke. I used the $15 HF one. The 'point' on the end of the screw fits beautifully on the hex hole on the stud (and won't deform it; not that you'll need a hex wrench for it).

The difficult part is keeping the fixed arms of the puller centered, as they won't be grabbing the yoke by much. It'll probably slip off once or twice before you break the torque, whereupon it will suddenly give way (with a satisfying 'pop')

Having the top of the shock mounts loose before you tackle the yoke may help, as you won't be fighting against the thing being fastened at both ends.

If you look up the torque spec for the yoke nut, it's a seemingly small 48 ft-lb, IIRC. It's kind of like outer tie rods -- it's not the torque of the nut, but the torque of yoke / bushing on stud that's so difficult. Unfortunately, you can swing that BFH like John Henry on the yoke, and about all you'll get is frustration, compared to hitting the side of the mount on the tie rod and watching the rod literally fall out.

In fact, if you were to attack the yoke in the same way, I'd be a bit afraid of bending the stud, if you hit the side of the yoke arm at the bushing. Use the puller.

(on edit) : The hammer @Mounce mentions is spot-on; it's a 4lb 'engineer's hammer', and it's got a decent amount of heft, yet can be managed in a smaller space vs, say the 8lb sledge, with it's roughly 3ft handle. I use mine on many jobs on both trucks, and it's worth every penny (not that it's very expensive... or at least didn't use to be. Seems everything's gone up at HF lately, IMO. Probably an effect of the tariff war; HF is but one source I've noticed that's been increasing prices the last few months.)
 
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Blckshdw

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Kinda kicking myself a bit. Got most of the passenger side dismantled, down to separating the lower ball joint from the steering knuckle, and got stuck. The puller with the correct shape, simply isn't big enough. Not by a long shot. Fought with it in vain out of frustration, before putting everything back together again to drive to Autozone to rent a tool.

Brought my puller with me and asked if they had a larger version. They did, but not by much... Figured I'd try it and hopefully get lucky. Negative. Can't even open it wide enough to get over the post of the joint. Anybody have any tricks up their sleeve for this one?

The difficult part is keeping the fixed arms of the puller centered, as they won't be grabbing the yoke by much. It'll probably slip off once or twice before you break the torque, whereupon it will suddenly give way (with a satisfying 'pop')

This was accurate. On first look there was nothing for the puller arms to hold onto. Ended up using my air chisel on the underside of the yoke to wedge itself in there, give me enough separation and leverage to pry a bit and get some room. Once I got the puller arms in, it was just a matter of holding the 2 arms in place, with a few blips of the impact and it popped free.
 
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xavierny25

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Mar 16, 2014
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I need a little help trying to figure out what exactly your trying to do. I've done lower control arms on my Voy twice and never had an issue. Unless you consider that I used moog in the first place that didn't last hence why I had to do them a second time. Lol20190508_111258.jpg
 
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Reprise

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A ball joint separator (pickle fork) would separate LBJ from knuckle, but be sure you have new ball joint on hand, etc., as you'll most likely (+90% chance) destroy the boot on the old joint driving it in. Since you're replacing, that's not a real problem, but be advised.

You'll need a few (several) good quality raps with the bfh to drive the fork in. You also may need to flip the fork over to improve the wedge angle, once it starts separating.

If you have a HF around, they run $15 -$20. Or you can rent them from AZ and the like.
 
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Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
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All I use is a BFH on the knuckle at the BJ. Just that vibration gets it off unless it's badly rust welded on there. Might need some heat on the knuckle just to expand it a bit. I haven't used a pickle fork in over 20 years using this method.
 
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Mounce

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Mar 29, 2014
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I had luck with a bj seperator but just barely and struggled for way too long on both sides as it barely fit. I second the pickle fork and generous knuckle beating methods. Both will likely give you a workout but it can be done.

Edit: I bought this set back when I had my run of ball joints. The bottom center piece is what I used. Had to remove the hinge pin, beat the fork piece into the crevice between the joint and knuckle (mainly just to tear the boot off to get space for the fork to go over the stud shaft) then put the leveraging arm back on and pin it in which just barely engaged half of the end of the stud. Worked like a hot damn but was overly obnoxious to get set up. Unless I have a perfect case I won't use it again and will just go the pickle fork / beating direction.

Screenshot_20191213-201644.png
 
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Blckshdw

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Everything is back together, so I'll hit up HF in the morning after taking the AZ puller back, and try the pickle fork and bfh method. Will be nice to release some frustration a few times for sure. :yes:

I need a little help trying to figure out what exactly your trying to do.

lol, I didn't think this whole misadventure should be this hard either, but welcome to my life. Murphy is my alter ego, that's the only way I can explain it.

Essentially I had the LCA hanging from the steering knuckle, because I couldn't get the LBJ to disengage and pop loose. The puller from my kit is on bottom, AZ puller on top. Mine was too shallow, and couldn't get deep enough over the steering knuckle lip, for the jack screw to engage with the LBJ post.

The AZ puller seems like I can get it deep enough, but the jack screw has that head on it, and I can't retract it far enough to get over the tip of the LBJ post. I just wish I tried this part first, would have saved a lot of other work getting everything else apart! 😵

20191213_212347.jpg
 
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Blckshdw

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Edit: I bought this set back when I had my run of ball joints. The bottom center piece is what I used.

That's the kit I got too. Started to try that same piece, didn't think about taking it apart, but it wouldn't budge so I tossed it back in the case. @jimmyjam came through this morning on his way to the junk yard, and let me borrow his pickle fork. Worked like a charm, as expected, with several wacks with the hammer.

Got the new arms in, went for a quick test drive to return the AZ puller. Lots of clunking when hitting the front side of bumps, even just on rough pavement. Got home and quickly realized my mistake, torqued things with the suspension unloaded :duh: Put my scissor jack under each rotor and tightened things up. The lower ball joint nuts had visible gaps, so I assumed they were the culprits.

Went for a drive around the block, and still have something rattling on the driver's side. Running over manhole covers is enough to cause it. I checked the nuts on the ball joint, tie rod, yoke, and arm to brackets, everything clicked the torque wrench at the proper setting. Looked at the yoke to arm connection again, and there's a much bigger gap with the new arms compared to the old. If they aren't fully seating, I'd imagine that could be an issue. Old ones had almost zero gap.

It won't move by hand, or using a hammer with a block of wood. Anyone think trying to pull it tighter with the ball joint press would be a good idea here?

20191214_123917.jpg
 

Reprise

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(on edit: ) The shaft that the yoke attaches to is TAPERED, as I recall. I don't think you're going to drive the yoke on much further (so discount what I wrote below about tightening the nut past spec.)



If you think the gap between the yoke & LCA is the problem, you could try either torquing down the nut, or removing the yoke and putting a second bushing (or spacer) in. You could also examine other manufacturer's LCAs and see if they use a different / thicker bushing than the one on yours. Also compare the old ones you took off.

I'm a bit curious as to the LCA bushing on your photo - I thought the bushing extended on both sides, not just the back / outer -? Although I'm not looking at my Envoy as I write this. It seems to me that I did have the bushing on the inner side that mates with the yoke -- that's why I mentioned that it would be difficult to get the pitman arm puller to grab to the yoke (no / very little gap)

IIRC, I may have a set of new LCAs in the garage (I had bought them for the Envoy, but didn't put them on.) I'll see if I can find them, and look at the bushings on them. To me, if that bushing doesn't extend out from both sides, it could cause the noise you're talking about. Just a WAG, I'll admit.

If I can't find them, I'll pull the Envoy in later (finishing up on the Sierra now) and see what kind of gap I've got on mine (since I have stock yoke and LCA) I don't recall that it 'looked different' when I reassembled - ?

Nice to hear you had a (former) owner close by that helped out with the pickle fork. :thumbsup:
 

Blckshdw

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Nov 20, 2011
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Tampa Bay Area, FL
Honestly I'm not sure where the problem is, the yoke is the only thing that appears different to the eye. I've tried gripping, yanking, and shaking everything under there and nothing moves at all. Since this noise is new, it's gotta be a connection to the LCA somewhere. Only thing I went off-book about was the arm to bracket bolt orientation. Bolts pointing forward has the tie rod boots in the way, so I reversed them for ease of install.
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
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Ottawa, ON
Did you replace the end links? Did you torque them like a mofo? Holes not egged out in the bar?
 
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Blckshdw

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End links were replaced some years ago with Moogs. Torqued them to spec each time I've had to disconnect them. Holes in the bar were still round and clean.

Went out this evening, and it's definitely only on the driver's side. If I have my window up, and the passenger window all the way down, I can almost not hear anything.

:undecided: Only thing I didn't check were the calipers. I'll check those in the morning.
 

Blckshdw

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Did you replace the end links? Did you torque them like a mofo?

Turns out this was the issue after all. Was able to replicate the sound by rocking the truck side to side. Ended up having to lay partway under the truck so I could see all the joints, reach my foot up to the top of the wheel well and push up to cause the truck to rock. Then I was able to see a slight wiggle in the link. The lower nut ended up needing about a full turn. :Banghead:

Cranked that down, went for a drive around the neighborhood, and now the suspension is damn near silent over the giant speed bumps on the main roads that pass through. :2thumbsup:
 

Reprise

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Looks like you got it resolved; I did take a couple of pics, and will post one here, just for reference. Again, these are the factory parts (and a lot of rust)

Yoke_LCA_3_20191215_114546.jpg
 
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Blckshdw

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Nov 20, 2011
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Tampa Bay Area, FL
The gap you've got looks pretty close to the gap I've got now actually. The ones I took off were much closer. Had to use the air chisel to get enough of a gap to pry them apart enough to get the puller arms in. With the current gaps, I'd be able to get the puller arms in without a problem.
 

Mounce

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Mar 29, 2014
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Tuscaloosa, AL
Figure as the bushing wears it probably yields towards the rear. Seems like I recall it having a big metal end on it so it's not able to slide out towards the yoke, as it ages down and rearward is likely the only slop it can find.
 

Blckshdw

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With mine both of them are pretty sloppy in front, the rear is still anchored in to some degree. Now that it's disconnected, you can wiggle the stud around like a joystick
 

2001ZR2

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Jul 16, 2019
93
Kansas
Sorry you had such a struggle. I've done 2 of these front ends and didn't have the same amount problems. Had one lower bj that required the BFH and heat and one capitive nut on a UCA break the tack welds. Both on the truck that had 1/2" play in outer tie rod on passenger side. Was like that when I bought it unsure how long it was like that. The previous owners also drove it for 2 years with a 171 code.
 
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