Hidden fuse/relay box

movietvet

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I have had great luck with my girl's TB and except for the recent TCCM replacement, have only done a fuel pressure regulator, VVT solenoid and basic maintenance. Under the d/s rear seat, I discovered a hidden to me, fuse and relay box. How often and when will that come in to play? In other words, what problems will I likely be facing if this fuse relay box is involved in the problem search?

I will say that this TB is soooo basic, it does not even have key fobs. There is no module that supports that.
 
It is difficult to visualize all of the aspects of the Left Rear Under Seat Fuse Box... unless it is completely removed from the Vehicle. So... have a look at these images and note that if there are any Weak Points in its design... it rests with the fact that the Flat, Rectangular Bolt-On BCM Unit attached to the side of the Fuse Block Portion via a Flexible Copper and Green Cable can become compromised whenever filled with an Acidic Spilled Coke or damaged by contact with other debris and make for sketchy connections. B-Pillar Bad Ground Connections can also cause issues.

Also... the Unit can Vibrate violently enough over time via BAD MOTOR MOUNTS at Idle to cause BCM to PCM communications problems on the Single Wire Class 2 Network. I think @TJBaker57 has some excellent Bench Top Views and advice on servicing that Flat Green-N-Gold Ribbon Cable, too, Here you go...

TBENVOYREARFUSEBOX1.jpgTBENVOYREARFUSEBOX2.jpgTBENVOYREARFUSEBOX3.jpgTBENVOYREARFUSEBOX4.jpgTBENVOYREARFUSEBOX5.jpgTBENVOYREARFUSEBOX6.jpgTBENVOYREARFUSEBOX7.jpgTBENVOYREARFUSEBOX8.jpgTBENVOYREARFUSEBOX9.jpgTBENVOYREARFUSEBOX10.jpgTBENVOYREARFUSEBOX11.jpgTBENVOYREARFUSEBOX12.jpg

Take some time to view the second half of Will Robinson's Eponymous Video on Class 2 Network Diagnostics as he attacks the Passenger Under-Seat Splice Pack and addresses access via the Rear Fuse Box to his Oscilloscope to perform Class 2 Network PWM Monitoring and while performing some Basic Powers and Grounds Tests an a different Module:


BONUS STUFF:

Here is the official list of ALL the GM-GMC Re-Programmable Modules dating from 1995 up to 2008...including the BCM if it needs to be replaced:
 

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I have had great luck with my girl's TB and except for the recent TCCM replacement, have only done a fuel pressure regulator, VVT solenoid and basic maintenance. Under the d/s rear seat, I discovered a hidden to me, fuse and relay box. How often and when will that come in to play? In other words, what problems will I likely be facing if this fuse relay box is involved in the problem search?

I will say that this TB is soooo basic, it does not even have key fobs. There is no module that supports that.


Back there under the drivers side rear seat lives the rear fuseblock and standing vertically attached to it is the Body Control Module, BCM.

A great deal of wiring passes through there, even circuits that are in the end bound to the PCM.

As long as it stays clean and dry it generally presents no common troubles.


On the opposite side under that same seat there is a slit in the carpet. In there is a second serial data hub/splice pack.

As far as key FOBs go that service, when equipped, is built into the Lift Gate Module (LGM) in the rear hatch. The RPO sticker in the glove box would reveal if keyless entry was available.

My own 2002 has RPO "AU0 LOCK CONTROL,REMOTE ENTRY(KEYLESS ENTRY SYSTEM)"
 
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Rectangular Bolt-On BCM Unit attached to the side of the Fuse Block Portion via a Flexible Copper and Green Cable

I have seen this cable referred to in service literature as the "Body Harness Extension" or something quite similar.
 
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Back there under the drivers side rear seat lives the rear fuseblock and standing vertically attached to it is the Body Control Module, BCM.

A great deal of wiring passes through there, even circuits that are in the end bound to the PCM.

As long as it stays clean and dry it generally presents no common troubles.


On the opposite side under that same seat there is a slit in the carpet. In there is a second serial data hub/splice pack.

As far as key FOBs go that service, when equipped, is built into the Lift Gate Module (LGM) in the rear hatch. The RPO sticker in the glove box would reveal if keyless entry was available.

My own 2002 has RPO "AU0 LOCK CONTROL,REMOTE ENTRY(KEYLESS ENTRY SYSTEM)"
I did just check the RPO code and there is no "AU0" code.

I also did a cover pull and looked at this fuse/relay box and it does look pristine. The TB only has 77k miles on it and lived it's life in a "no salt on roads" state of Oregon. You would think I would have noticed this box before but never had a reason or opportunity to look under there.
 
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Let me ask you this, if I had a BCM that is flashed for the AU0 or had the existing one flashed with AU0, is the wiring and actuators already there to allow just a "plug and play" with the correct BCM? I know that she can use her master switch, at driver's door, that allows for the liftgate and all doors to be unlocked and locked from that driver's door.
 
Let me ask you this, if I had a BCM that is flashed for the AU0 or had the existing one flashed with AU0, is the wiring and actuators already there to allow just a "plug and play" with the correct BCM? I know that she can use her master switch, at driver's door, that allows for the liftgate and all doors to be unlocked and locked from that driver's door.


Funny you ask that, here just now I was wondering myself if the programming was already in a BCM that didn't have keyless entry from the factory.

The switch in the drivers door has no wires for unlocking the rear doors and the hatch. It is accomplished by sending network messages. This would mean the BCM is already programmed to unlock the 2 rear doors upon receipt of said message from the drivers door.

And the hatch also receives the same message from the drivers door like the BCM does. The hatch unlocks in response to the message.

I am wondering if the only missing piece is an LGM programmed for keyless entry.


I will look over my network messages to refresh my memory of how the while thing operates.

I know this much... on my vehicles I leave a bluetooth dongle installed and I can unlock the vehicle by sending a message using my phone and a serial terminal app. However, both of my GM trucks already have keyless entry.
 
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Funny you ask that, here just now I was wondering myself if the programming was already in a BCM that didn't have keyless entry from the factory.

The switch in the drivers door has no wires for unlocking the rear doors and the hatch. It is accomplished by sending network messages. This would mean the BCM is already programmed to unlock the 2 rear doors upon receipt of said message from the drivers door.

And the hatch also receives the same message from the drivers door like the BCM does. The hatch unlocks in response to the message.

I am wondering if the only missing piece is an LGM programmed for keyless entry.


I will look over my network messages to refresh my memory of how the while thing operates.

I know this much... on my vehicles I leave a bluetooth dongle installed and I can unlock the vehicle by sending a message using my phone and a serial terminal app. However, both of my GM trucks already have keyless entry.
When I would buy key fobs, assuming we can do the BCM flashing, do I already have to have a working key fob, because we have no key fobs at all for the TB. Or, the key fobs are designed in such a way that they can ALL be brand new and just mate to the BCM?
 
When I would buy key fobs, assuming we can do the BCM flashing, do I already have to have a working key fob, because we have no key fobs at all for the TB. Or, the key fobs are designed in such a way that they can ALL be brand new and just mate to the BCM?


Actually the key FOBs register with the LGM, not the BCM.

I have been reviewing the serial data and it may be that both the LGM and BCM need to have the programming for keyless entry.

I just still wonder if all BCMs have the programming as it doesn't require any different parts. Just some lines of code. Why would they want to maintain different software for no other reason? But it wouldn't surprise me if they did I guess.

The LGM needs the radio receiver for the FOBs. That would perhaps be a cost savings if no keyless entry.
 
So, the fobs register with the Lift Gate Module? Does the LGM control all doors actions thru the fobs? I am confused. I would like fobs for my girl but need to "understand" how it all works in "laymans" terms.
Are you saying the existing actuators, doors and liftgate, will be fine and no hard wiring is needed?
 
As per my Thread for Various Modules, Harnessing and Tear Down Images, first here are more close up images of the BCM ...followed on in the next Post by the LGM Images as it is mounted under the Rear Lift Gate Panel:


BCMCONNECTORS.jpgDSC01609.jpgDSC01610.jpgDSC01614.jpgDSC01616.jpgDSC01618.jpgDSC01619.jpgDSC01620.jpgDSC01623.jpgDSC01625.jpg

...and the related Wiring Diagrams for LGM Class 2 and Power Actuation Diagnostics:

90SCORVETTESPLICEPACK.pngBCM2004DIAGRAM.jpegDATABUSDIAGRAM.jpegPCMNETWORKEDCOMPONENTS.jpg
 
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...and these cover the LGM with additional images of the Wiring that can often break down by work-hardening inside the insulation as well as make cleans breaks via the bending and flexing of the LGM Harness via the Rear Window Wiper Motor Power Wiring or Class 2 Communication Wires separating as they pass through the Upper Rear Body into the Lift Gate...and cause issues with Non-Working Key Fobs:

LGM.jpg
LGMINSTALLED.jpg
s-l1600C.jpgs-l1600B.jpg
LGMTHRUTHEBOOTWIRING3.jpgLGMTHRUTHEBOOTWIRING2.jpgLGMTHRUTHEBOOTWIRING1.jpgLGMTHRUTHEBOOTWIRING.jpg
LGMWIRECOLORS.png
 

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So, the fobs register with the Lift Gate Module? Does the LGM control all doors actions thru the fobs? I am confused. I would like fobs for my girl but need to "understand" how it all works in "laymans" terms.
Are you saying the existing actuators, doors and liftgate, will be fine and no hard wiring is needed?

I still as of yet cannot definitively say that the BCM needs flashing for keyless entry. And I cannot yet determine if there were different LGMs with and without keyless entry capabilities. More research and perhaps experimentation is needed.

I see all manner of conflicting information online. I saw one ebay listing for a used LGM that stated it was without keyless entry but they included an image of the RPO sticker that clearly showed the keyless entry code AU0.

Then another official looking site lists an LGM that again says without keyless entry but goes on to list the various models it supercedes and there in that list is an entry for a model that definitely does have keyless entry.

In short, I have yet to find a parts listing that clearly states different model LGMs with and without keyless entry.



Now to the matter of how it works and why no additional wiring would be needed.... I will try to explain. I may over simplify a bit but it will still be somewhat confusing nonetheless.

@mrrsm posted a listing of various programmable modules in GM vehicles. Scattered throughout the vehicle you have a bunch of microcontrollers (modules) that serve various systems. The PCM handles the engine and transmission, the HVAC module handles the heating and cooling, the TCCM handles the 4wd system, PDM handles the front passenger side door, DDM is the drivers door module, LGM handles everything at the liftgate/hatch and so on. Even the radio and the instrument cluster are modules.

In days of old when you flipped or pushed a switch you actually sent power to some device like a door lock or what have you. That meant there had to be separate wires for each operation from the switch location to the controlled device location That added up to a hell of a lot of wire, cost and weight.

Then electronics and microcontrollers came on the scene. And they can communicate with each other. Now you could could just put a microcontroller (module) here and there in locations where stuff had to be controlled and instead of running separate wires you just run one communications wire to the modules.

In these GMT360/370 vehicle all of the various modules are interconnected on a single wire network. Every message from every module is heard by every other module on the network. I might liken it to a group chat/text. No private messages, it's a big party line.

If some function like unlocking a door needs to happen you just need to send a message out on that big party line instructing whoever is responsible for that function to do it. No separate wires needed. The module already has power and ground at all times and is also connected to the devices that it is responsible for. Like door lock/unlock actuators or window defog grids and so on.


So how does the keyless entry actually work?

The key fob sends out a radio signal when a button is pushed. The radio message contains the key fob ID of some sort and the details of what button has been pushed.

The LGM has the radio receiver for the keyfob radio signal frequency. The LGM will check the key fob ID to confirm that the particular key fob is recognized and registered to this vehicle. If yes then the LGM puts a message on the vehicle network to "wake up" the network from a sleep state. Even when the key is off the modules still have power and are monitoring the network for traffic.

The BCM receives the "wake up" message and broadcasts a "power mode" message to the network. This notifies all modules what the desired operational state of the vehicle should be.

The LGM follows up the "wake up" message with a functional message that details which key fob (driver 1, driver 2) was used, and what function is being requested (lock, unlock, etc.) and so on.

The BCM is programmed to act on this second message sent by the LGM by responding with a different functional message directing the relevant module(s) to perform the action requested.

The relevant modules(s) get the functional message the BCM sent and perform the function then report back the results of that action.

All of this usually happens in less than one second.

Mixed in among the messages are a host of other messages about vehicle security, interior lighting and all manner of other stuff.

I keep using the term "function" because that is how these messages are addressed. These messages are not directly sent from one module to another specific module but rather to "functional address". There are functional addresses for nearly every operation of the vehicle. "External Access", "Door Locks", "Tires", "Mirrors", you name it. The modules are programmed to act on functional messages that deal with devices or actions that they are responsible for.

Clear as mud, right?



So for a vehicle to have a working keyless entry system the LGM must have the radio receiver circuitry and the programming to go with it. That part is simple enough because I think a used module can be just swapped in without VIN specific flashing. It may set a code if the swapped LGM has features the vehicle does not have. Like rear window defog grid or rear wiper. But it won't set the CEL or the like.

And the BCM must have the programming to act on the message(s) from the LGM that deal with keyless entry. That part is much more of an issue. It's not so easy to add capabilities to a BCM. The BCM DOES retain the vehicle VIN number and uses it for security.
 
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Short answer.... Sounds like it would be easiest to use an aftermarket keyless entry add-on system, with or without remote start.
 
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Just some more Ad Hoc On Topic Information from a "Light Scrape" of the Internet that may prove useful in answering many Questions (I believe @TJBaker57 has assisted many of these Folks out there in these other Forums, Too ):

LIFTGATEISSUES1.jpgLIFTGATEISSUES2.jpgLIFTGATEISSUES3.jpgLIFTGATEISSUES4.jpg
 
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