Head removal

[gmcman]

Now, with these head bolts, I wonder if they put on red Loctite on them too, causing them to snap when trying to remove them?

Just an idea.

I would think that's worth investigating. I can ask a buddy of mine tomorrow and pick his brain.

I would also think that with the head bolts, steady gradually increasing pressure would be better than a good hard tug. Maybe the bolts would start to give slightly reducing the torque on the head. I would work them easy at first.

 

[Mooseman]

Found this bulletin on head removal. Not much but it has ideas:

View attachment 59636

 

[Catriderf7]

Seems like a lot of people had an issue with snapping manifold bolts. I used an impact and all mine came right off easy. The head bolts are another story. Ive gotten one head bolt to pop like it broke loose, 2 times in the left direction when i first applied pressure, I can get it to pop and tighten a little or loosen. But it wont go the rest of the way, feels like im going to snap it. I too have had a lot of experience in feeling like im going to snap a bolt. Then heating it with a torch and having it loosen almost effortlessly. I think I may just clean the tools/bolts off the floor and rinse the top of the engine out with hot water to remove most of the oil, so that I can heat the headbolts without having to worry about starting a fire. Otherwise i dont think ill be able to get the block hot enough to actually do the job just with hot water

I also saw that bulletin somwhere last week

 

[gmcman]

That would be great if the torch works. I agree 200 deg water will only work so much and I also think you would need big heat to make a difference.

 

[Grimor]

When I took the head off mine trying to turn the engine before pulling it, all but 2 of the head bolts snapped. Manifold bolts, on the engine I pulled and the one I put in, none broke while taking them off. There was one already broke when I got my replacement engine but it turned out easily with this style of bolt extractor.

With the head bolts, after one or more break, It's almost a new block or different engine IMHO

 

[Catriderf7]

Well I tried the heating it. The first bolt i had heated up with the mapgas torch for 2 min or so, It probably sat for 30 seconds and then I got the socket on it and tried to crank it and it snapped the bolt with what felt like less effort than i was putting on it yesterday trying to loosen it. Second bolt I tried heating for longer 3-4 min and was well over 600 degrees (checked with infared thermometer) I let it cool completely down to 75 degrees or so on the bolt head, and I put the wrench on it and snapped my brand new craftsman socket.

Looks like im just going to change the engine out completely. I dont feel like doing this 15 more times on all the rest of the bolts. Its a shame this engine has such good compression on the other cylinders. A lot of them at junkyards are showing 125-145psi compression. This one has 185 on all but the problem cylinder. Oh well

 

[gmcman]

Heating expands the metal, bolt gets larger or the female thread of the head gets larger. Too much heat and that could be the cause. Good heat for a short time on the bolt and let the block absorb the heat may be a more viable option.

 

[gmcman]

Of course based on the history of this motor I don't think it's your fault...don't get me wrong.....just poor design.

 

[Catriderf7]

Yeah Ill try some different techniques on them once I get the engine out. Just put one on hold for $600 at a junkyard nearby ill be picking up tomorrow. Now time to get this one out.

 

[Catriderf7]

Any tips on getting the top bellhousing bolts off? I have the trans brace out and the engine is tipped all the way back i was able to get the 2 below the starter hole on the driver side but I think theres one above the starter that I cant even feel or see from underneath. And on the other side, does everyone removove the exhaust? I can barely even see them on that side because of the exhaust

 

[BlazingTrails]

About 20" of extensions and your ratchet will be at the end of the tranny. They are easy that way.

 

[Catriderf7]

With or without a swivel? I couldnt even see them so itd be hard to get on them with a swivel. Maybe I just need try from a different viewing angle

 

[gmcman]

The way I've seen people do it is what BlazingTrails described. One guy had an impact with about a 2 to 3 foot extension and a swivel socket and stood behind the trans while in the air and said....

"This is my money maker"

Lol

 

[gmcman]

I wonder if a gearwrench from the top with a cheater bar would work.

 

[Catriderf7]

I have a 3ft long 1/4 inch extension, ill try that. Otherwise ill try varying lengths of 3/8 extensions. Its a pain laying under the car and trying to get to all these bolts. The transmission brace took me a good hour to get out lol. My next house will have a 2 post hoist in the garage or driveway for sure

 

[gmcman]

I would think you may snap a 1/4 setup on those bolts, at least the square end.

 

[Catriderf7]

I might, but they're all craftsman so no harm done ill just take it back for a replacement if need be

 

[gmcman]

The only problem is with extra long extensions is the absorbtion of torque. Generally an impact 3/8 setup with a swivel socket works best with a strong gun. The 1/4 may work, Craftsman stuff is good.

 

[Catriderf7]

The only problem is with extra long extensions is the absorbtion of torque. Generally an impact 3/8 setup with a swivel socket works best with a strong gun. The 1/4 may work, Craftsman stuff is good.

Yeah I hate the way that works. I was able to get them all last night. I didnt realize that I needed to take the cross member off and that extra bracket with the aluminum arm that holds the exhaust, once I removed that the trans really dropped and I was able to get to them by putting my impact above the back of the trans and running extensions. Ill be buying a long 3/8 extension after this experience. putting 6 or 7 short extensions together majory eats up the torque of the impact thats for sure.

I picked up the other motor yesterday, i pulled the coils to check the plugs and 4 of the 6 had oil in with the plugs, 2 of them were full to the top of the plug with oil, looks like im going to have to get a valve cover gasket set

 

[gmcman]

With the motor out I would personally, without a doubt, check the rod bearings and likely change them regardless....that's just me.

I would clean the oil pan, replace the pickup screen, and if time permitted a new front cover which includes an oil pump.

Front and rear seals...Rock n roll.

Edited to add the reason for the seal change is you don't know how long the motor sat. The seals may weep at first, may not but cheap insurance since it's out.

 

[Catriderf7]

I was considering a rebuild. But I decided against it. We had the envoy for sale before it broke down, and it will be for sale once its up and running again. Selling a car with an engine rebuilt by someone who isnt a certified mechanic Ive learned isnt a selling point for most people. And I was able to run a carfax on the Vin# on the engine since I have an unlimited subscription to carfax and it was in a trailblazer that was rear end totaled less than a month ago. The junkyard didnt powerwash the engine like some do, and the engine looks nice and dry, So I think the seals are fine other than those seals around the spark plugs.

 

[Catriderf7]

Also one thing factoring into the decision to buy a used engine was the fact that I could just take it and drop in a complete engine that hasnt been taken half apart. Which reminds me. Anyone whose taken your engines out, have you re installed them with the intake and exhaust manifolds on the engine? The exhaust manifold isnt bad to install in the engine bay but the intake seems like itd be a real pain being that when I removed it I dont think I could see half the bolts, just had to go by feel

 

[gmcman]

That makes sense then if it was recently running and shows no leaks I would toss it in there as well, especially if you are flipping it.

I haven't pulled a motor but the intake is a snug fit and probably won't allow alot of wiggle room. As well as being plastic I wouldn't chance it being attached. It's an easy install with the alternator already out.

 

[Mooseman]

I have pulled an engine. Bought mine with a knocking engine and replaced it with an '03.

I reinstalled it with the intake but If I were to do it again, I would take it off. Doesn't add that much more work and the bolts don't snap off (a lot of time, they're loose). Also installed it with the differential and exhaust manifold attached. Make sure to check the exhaust manifold for cracks (both my original and the one on the '03 were cracked). I didn't use actual exhaust manifold bolts, just regular 10.8 strength bolts so that they don't snap later like the torque to yield ones.

I would also recommend opening it up and cleaning the inside of the pan and pickup. I'd also open the top to see if there is a lot of coked up oil and here's why. I didn't open my top end, only the pan to swap it due to the lack of the oil level sensor hole in '03. Later, I had to change the cam phaser due to errors coming up. Everything was all coked up pretty bad indicating poor oil maintenance. So changed the phaser and all was well. That was two years ago. Now, today, my timing chain tensioner is dead with a flopping chain. It is currently sitting in my driveway with the top and oil pan pulled (that was a biatch to do) and waiting for a puller for the harmonic balancer. I'm certain that the same poor maintenance caused the timing chain tensioner dying as it is hydraulically oil fed. Oh, and my 2 year old phaser still looks like new with my good maintenance. And this engine had only just under 100k miles.

But then, you're selling it after so, I wouldn't bother.

 

[Catriderf7]

I have pulled an engine. Bought mine with a knocking engine and replaced it with an '03.

I reinstalled it with the intake but If I were to do it again, I would take it off. Doesn't add that much more work and the bolts don't snap off (a lot of time, they're loose). Also installed it with the differential and exhaust manifold attached. Make sure to check the exhaust manifold for cracks (both my original and the one on the '03 were cracked). I didn't use actual exhaust manifold bolts, just regular 10.8 strength bolts so that they don't snap later like the torque to yield ones.

I would also recommend opening it up and cleaning the inside of the pan and pickup. I'd also open the top to see if there is a lot of coked up oil and here's why. I didn't open my top end, only the pan to swap it due to the lack of the oil level sensor hole in '03. Later, I had to change the cam phaser due to errors coming up. Everything was all coked up pretty bad indicating poor oil maintenance. So changed the phaser and all was well. That was two years ago. Now, today, my timing chain tensioner is dead with a flopping chain. It is currently sitting in my driveway with the top and oil pan pulled (that was a biatch to do) and waiting for a puller for the harmonic balancer. I'm certain that the same poor maintenance caused the timing chain tensioner dying as it is hydraulically oil fed. Oh, and my 2 year old phaser still looks like new with my good maintenance. And this engine had only just under 100k miles.

But then, you're selling it after so, I wouldn't bother.

Thats good to know I was wondering if I could put the differential on the oil pan before dropping the motor in. And just like yours, my old exhaust manifold was cracked, and so is the one on this engine, funny how they all seem to do that. I havent had an issue with the bolts tho, theyve all came right out easily with an impact. We'll see how it looks once I pull the valve cover, oil is pretty dark although carfax shows pretty regular oil changes at a dealership, so thats always a good sign

 

[felicie]

Just a thought for anyone who chooses to rebuild their motor and plans on keeping the GMT's. Rather than keeping TTY's on the head what about studs, are they available?

 

[jimmyjam]

Just a thought for anyone who chooses to rebuild their motor and plans on keeping the GMT's. Rather than keeping TTY's on the head what about studs, are they available?

IDK if I'd go with studs because removing the head in the car is pretty much out of the question but definitely a set of ARP head bolts. I've never put stock bolts back in a block, always swap out for ARPs. I doubt they sell a specific kit but i'm sure you could go alacarte

 

[felicie]

I say that because then the problem of broken bolts would go away.

 

[Mooseman]

But then, what torque do we use? TTY work differently than regular bolts. Yeah, studs wouldn't allow the head to clear them with the firewall overhang in the way.

 

[felicie]

The torque would be the same as it is now, even though the TTY clamp differently the still must achieve a torque number.

 

[Catriderf7]

I think itd be hard to figure an actual torque number since youd have to get bolts from a different engine. Maybe just go with the torque rating and dont go the extra whatever on the degree gauge, anythings better than the tty bolts thats for sure, at least as far as people who end up working on them are concearned

 

[felicie]

From what I can come up with it's between 55 to 65 pound feet. I know 10 pound feet is a large span but the I think 65 wouldn't over torque studs.

 

[felicie]

Do you think its because of the high tempts these engines run that the bolts breaking is an issue? I always remembered Chevys running at 180-190 rather than 210 degrees.

 

[Catriderf7]

I was thinking it was the corrosion factor of putting steel bolts into an aluminum block. I havent ever seen a head bolt break on a cast iron block. Its obviously something specific to these engines or maybe the supplier they got the bolts from. Plenty of other cars used TTY bolts and I havent ever broken one yet until this one

 

[ChrisinVictoria]

When I installed a used engine I had the intake off, exhaust manifold and differential on. I got a low kilo. engine and have not had any issues since I did it in March this year.

 

[Catriderf7]

I installed the engine with the intake on, I couldnt see most of the bolts when I removed it, so Installing it to me seemed like a real pain, Plus it was already on the salvage yard engine so I figured why open it up. I also had the differential on, and exhaust off because that was just another thing to have to worry about lining up while dropping the motor in.

Got it all hooked up and it started right up and runs good, Oil filter was stuck on more than any ive ever tried to remove. I stripped the 3/8 square on my filter cup/socket, then i tried the metal strap wrench style and it just crushed, and puntured the filter. I spend about an hour and a half trying different techniques. I was so pissed, thinking id have to pull the radiator or something just to get a better angle to cut the filter off or something, I just walked away from it. came back at it a few hours later and remembered I have the 3 prong filter remover that tightens as you crank it, and I tried that and it worked. Although it was so hard to turn for the first full turn I couldnt believe it, it felt like I was just twisting the casing around the filter. Anyway I got it off, changed the oil and filter and it seems to be good to go. Just need to get an alignment done since I replaced the tie rod ends and the steerings a little weird now. Hopefully I wont be back on here for any problems related to this job. Thanks for the help guys

 

[rayking]

Help,can the timing tensioner be turned back ?reset?with the front cover in place?
Only 60k on my tb drives as new .A few weeks ago,here in Panama ,C,America had A/C gas refilled,and so called mecanic broke rad neck,not informing me.Anyway ,while my freind was driving it overheated !!!! Head gasget blown.
When young l served my apprenticeship as a mechanic for Jag,s in Britain,things have changed so much since then!!
Now aged 60 had to do job myself,WHAT A PAIN IN THE ASS !!
But apart from all the pain ,from stretching ect,and with NO broken bolts .
Im ready almost to replace,but l have the tensioner problem.
Brains and parts ,special tools,ect, hard to get here,
Chain is up and tight ,but tensioner clicked out ,even though l tried to Jam,in place ,when removing head it moved out!! ,
I THERE A WAY,OR WILL IT RETURN UNDER PRESSURE ?????????

 

[rayking]

Hi,must l buy a new chain tensioner??? or can my50+k old be reset ,in place ??,desperate for answer .

 

[Mooseman]

No need for a new tensioner. It can be reset but will require a long piece of stiff wire and patience. Have a look at my thread about the replacement to give you an idea about where it is and how to go about it.
http://gmtnation.com/forums/topic/12240-how-to-replace-i6-timing-chain-and-tensioner/

With the wire, you will have to hook into that little arm on the tensioner, pull it up and it will release. Pull on the chain and put it back on the cam gears in the correct position with the marked links on the marks on the gears. Let go of the little arm and it should extend a bit to take up the slack. If not, push on the chain on the passenger side and let it take the slack. You want to take the slack out of the non-tensioner side and bring it over to the tensioner side so it can extend.