Head removal

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
Texan said:
If you had a cracked exhaust manifold, you may have a warped valve.
Remove exhaust manifold and use your scope to look in through the exhaust
port in the head. Rotate by hand to open valves.
Yeah thats why i was thinking itd be a burnt or otherwise wrecked valve.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Catriderf7 said:
I cant see the valve with the scope. When you stick it thru the spark plug hole its looking straight at the piston, theres no way to turn it around and face it up at the valve
Sorry, easier to reply now that I'm at a PC.... With the manifold off, I would try needle nose pliers or locking pliers...even if I had to sacrifice a pair to the grinder wheel to make it work through the port. If you can hold onto the stem, you can release the keepers and with the piston at TDC, the valve won't fall through the guide.

Rotate the crankshaft by hand lowering the piston until the valve was low enough to see but still in the guide. At this point you could probably see the top of the valve with the scope looking down onto the piston.

I'm guessing the valve is just barely open, which would still allow the engine to run but not constantly misfire.

With that being said, going back to the reason you're doing this....what were the symptoms that caused you to perform a compression check, how was it running? Constant misfires...engine shaking or was it intermittent.

Carbon doesn't usually build up on the exhaust valve, could be anything but I agree it could be warped ever so slightly.
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
The car was running good. Had a noticeable exhaust leak from the cracked manifold for a good year now. It just recently started getting louder so I ordered a manifold for it. I was going to put it on last saturday afternoon. My girlfriend drove the car somewhere in the morning and when she got back it was missing. Not horrible but enough to where you could feel it inside the car. Plugs are original so I figured id let it cool off, replace the manifold to get rid of the noise and then diagnose the misfire. I started it up and it was still missing, I started to back up the driveway and notice a good amount of smoke coming out the exhaust so I pulled it back in the garage. plugged in my scanner and it just came up as a cyl 1 missfire. so I disconected the coil on #1 while it was running and nothing changed. Then I checked compression and it had 0 compression, doesnt even move the gauge
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
I see what you mean now about looking at the valve. But I think before I do the work of removing the cam and everything Id rather just pull the head and leave the cams in place
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Was smoke coming from the tailpipe or engine bay? Either way that's surely a bum deal, smoke points to a head gasket or a severely worn/damaged valve guide...unless some other fluid made it in there but sucks you have to pull the head.

Good luck, I would still try the hot water, anything is worth trying to reduce the chance of breaking a head bolt.
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
How do you relieve tension on the timing chain to remove the gears and put that wedge tool in to keep the chain in place? Or am I supposed to manuver the wedge tool in while the gears are still on? I have a manual but it only tells how to remove the head with removing the front cover. I have the exhaust manifold off and everythings ready for the head to come off besides the chain.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
I wish I could tell you the procedure for securing the chain. But for me, I would be using safety wire through the links along with whatever is prescribed. ...basically triple redundancy.

Unfortunately you must remove the oil pan first in order to remove the front cover.

I would have bungee cords and safety wire holding the chain and once the head was up, I would secure the chain under the head and remove any overhead items holding the chain, then resecure it under the head once it's out of the way.

Make sure whatever you do you keep tension on the chain so it doesn't come loose from the crank gear.

This would give me sweaty palms, if you are still uncertain, visit a dealer and ask a few technicians how to secure the chain.
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
Yeah it sucks theres really not much info out there at all on doing it this way. im going to go back out and see what I can figure out
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
I did it to remove the cam phaser and that's all I did. I had used the two hook tools to hold the chain, removed the top chain guide, just unbolted the phaser and pulled it off with the chain.
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
So after a lot of consideration the past few days I decided to just go the long way and remove the oil pan. Yes it takes a lot longer but i feel a lot more comfortable being able to see and know where the timing chain and crank is when I put it all back together. I just kept picturing all the different opportunities there would have been for the chain to come off the crank while I was removing the head. and then I wouldve had to pull the pan anyway. Or worst case scenario having it all back together and then having it missfire because the timings off 1 tooth. So Id rather take the time beforehand and make sure its done right when I put it back together. Plus If I break a bunch of head bolts im probably just going to buy the salvage yard engine and swap it out to save time.

So anyway I have the axles out, tie rod ends, brakes, spindles etc, both crossmembers, which are way less work than most people make them sound like, taking both off only took maybe 15min with air tools. I stopped at the power steering rack. I need to get a deep well socket thats long enough to go on the nut end of the 2 big bolts. The bolt goes so far past the nut none of my sockets are long enough. After thats removed ill be ready to pull the pan
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Sweet, yeah, that's the way to do it if you have the means and time.

I agree it's not terribly difficult but quite the labor intensive task to get the front cover off along with the head. Going from a valve cover to a front cover removal would surely suck if it wasn't needed.

I haven't had my pan off so let me know if the rod bearings are accessible without removing the bracing for the mains...looks like they would be.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
I'm at that point too but my problem is that I can't remove the balancer. I even got the Spent-Moore tool specified in the manual and it doesn't fit. Tried a 3 arm gear puller, it keeps popping off and the balancer won't budge. If you figure a way, please let me know.
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
Harmonic balancer puller wont work on it? Like this one? thats what I have and was planning on using. I hate trying to use jaw pullers on those things.
 

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jimmyjam

Member
Nov 18, 2011
1,634
ours don't have round holes to stick bolts through like that. although I'd think if you're having problems taking it off, you could take two pieces of steel stock, drill holes in that, and put them behind the balancer to try and yank it off... idk, three jaw worked fine for me. however I live in florida, land of rust-free cars...

sounds nuts doing all that work in the car, I'd much rather pull an engine than spend my day hunched over a fender or crawling underneath
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
That sucks. Sometimes (if you can get a good enough hold with the claws) I tighten the 3 jaw puller and hit it with an impact a little bit. I wouldnt do it to a puller that doesnt have a lifetime warrantee tho. If your going to be replacing all the seals anyway i wouldnt be afraid to hit it with a torch a little bit. Sometimes heat makes all the difference
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
I would put the heat on the balancer and not the end of the crank, might be able to wick some candle wax between the crank and balancer, or some oil.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Yeah, I'm thinking heat too. I had to "modify" the puller a bit to fit behind the balancer as well as fit into the indents in the hub. Why didn't they just put the three tapped holes??? So much easier. Oh and there isn't much space behind the pulley part neither and would be afraid of damaging it.

And pulling the engine is not an option. Too many bad memories when I first swapped it.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Can you post a pic of the balancer, I would look at mine but easier with everything removed.

I wouldn't try pulling from the outside as your pulling force will only go into deforming the dampening material and possibly ruining the balancer.

I know you said you're also pulling from the middle also but just looking out
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Can you get a bolt through the opening in the balancer, secured with a washer and nut on the backside? Even if you need long nose pliers or a magnetic pick up tool to hold the nut?

If so, another option is welding a nut on the back of some 1/8 flat stock and use the stock to position the nut, using the slotted hub from a puller on the frontside.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
gmcman said:
Can you get a bolt through the opening in the balancer, secured with a washer and nut on the backside? Even if you need long nose pliers or a magnetic pick up tool to hold the nut?

If so, another option is welding a nut on the back of some 1/8 flat stock and use the stock to position the nut, using the slotted hub from a puller on the frontside.
I`m having trouble visualizing what you`re suggesting. Anyway, I will try different things like a different 3 jaw puller or grind the Spent-Moore tool so it will fit between the pulley and chain cover. I will also apply some heat to the hub to expand it a bit. Took the day off tomorrow so I`ll be back at it.

Please stand by...
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Catriderf7 said:
Disregard this post
So, did you get the diff off? ( I got the email notification with your original post :biggrin: )
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Mooseman said:
I`m having trouble visualizing what you`re suggesting. Anyway, I will try different things like a different 3 jaw puller or grind the Spent-Moore tool so it will fit between the pulley and chain cover. I will also apply some heat to the hub to expand it a bit. Took the day off tomorrow so I`ll be back at it.

Please stand by...
What does the balancer look like? Are there holes or slots large enough to fit a bolt through?

If so, a slotted puller hub like the one pictured a few posts above could have bolts pushed through it, then through any openings in the balancer, secured by a washer and nut behind the balancer if there's enough room between the back of the balancer and the front cover.

Or, you could get some flat stock about 8-12" long, drill a hole, then mig weld a nut over the opening of the metal stock then use the metal strip with nut attached to get behind balancer.

Then use the center pointed bolt of the puller to work the balancer off.

Pretty much like any 2 or 3 bolt puller but instead of using the threaded holes in the balancer....in which we don't have, just secure the bolts behind the balancer.
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
Mooseman said:
So, did you get the diff off? ( I got the email notification with your original post :biggrin: )
Yep I got it off. Took a LOT of wedging and prying to get it to finally loosen up but slowly i got it worked off. I pit a picklefork between the pan and the differential and had to keep moving it from one side to the other wedging a little more. Im all done under the car and lowered it, rest of the work is on top now
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Did a bunch or research. I HATE GM! Although I have a 2002, I swapped the engine for a 2003, which means I don't need the special tool, just a 3 jaw puller. Midway through 2003, they changed the balancer design and they added slots for a regular puller, which is also why the special tool won't fit. So I picked up another puller and will give it a try. If that one fails, this one should do it, $60 on Amazon:
http://www.otctools.com/products/harmonic-balancer-puller
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
gmcman said:
What does the balancer look like? Are there holes or slots large enough to fit a bolt through?

If so, a slotted puller hub like the one pictured a few posts above could have bolts pushed through it, then through any openings in the balancer, secured by a washer and nut behind the balancer if there's enough room between the back of the balancer and the front cover.

Or, you could get some flat stock about 8-12" long, drill a hole, then mig weld a nut over the opening of the metal stock then use the metal strip with nut attached to get behind balancer.

Then use the center pointed bolt of the puller to work the balancer off.

Pretty much like any 2 or 3 bolt puller but instead of using the threaded holes in the balancer....in which we don't have, just secure the bolts behind the balancer.
OK, I think I get it. There are three holes as the balancer has 3 arms to the outer ring. I'll keep it in mind if all else fails.
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
Mooseman said:
Did a bunch or research. I HATE GM! Although I have a 2002, I swapped the engine for a 2003, which means I don't need the special tool, just a 3 jaw puller. Midway through 2003, they changed the balancer design and they added slots for a regular puller, which is also why the special tool won't fit. So I picked up another puller and will give it a try. If that one fails, this one should do it, $60 on Amazon:
http://www.otctools.com/products/harmonic-balancer-puller
Are you saying the normal puller should work with the 3 or 4 bolts? Mines an 05
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
A normal 3 jaw puller should work. I just tried and she's on tight and broke the puller! Ripped the jaw links right off. I tried another bigger one and it initially puts a lot of pressure but eventually slips off. Added some heat from a propane torch (I was out of acetylene), didn't help.

I don't think that any redneck homemade tool will work so I went ahead and ordered that puller from Amazon with 2 day Prime shipping. $60. Not bad.
http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B000P6UT2I/ref=ox_ya_os_product_refresh_T1

I'm also going to refill my tanks in case I need real heat on it.
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
Huh, well ill be finding out tonight if mine will come off easy. Had to custom make a redneck tool out of flat steel to hold my waterpump pulley while I loosen the fan clutch.

I tried 2 loosen a head bolt and i think im going to break it. Tried giving it some good hits with a hammer but even with a 24 inch breaker bar it wasnt coming loose Just felt like it was about to snap so I let off. I even tried applying pressure with the breaker bar and pounding on the top of the bar and nothing. Ill try getting the motor warmed up and see what happens. If I break bolts Im just going to pull the motor and get one from the junkyard. Thatll be much less time consuming for re-instalation anyway
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
I would definitely try to warm the block before removing bolts. Whether you can start it or pour hot water into the upper hose. Once you drain some of the hot water I would get a large pot boiling then add that.

Aluminum will suck it up and it may not work but it's at least a good try. Anything to release some of the clamping pressure on the bolts.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Problem with running the engine is you get the head hot and that will be counter productive....so I would scratch that idea.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
What about using one of those flushing attachments that goes on the heater hose and hook it up to a hot water tap? If you can go to the bottom of your hot water tank with the hose, you'll get really hot water from there.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Mooseman said:
What about using one of those flushing attachments that goes on the heater hose and hook it up to a hot water tap? If you can go to the bottom of your hot water tank with the hose, you'll get really hot water from there.
I was thinking of that initially and I figured that hot water from the tap would be a few degrees from the bottom of the water heater....but it's a good idea. Just keep in mind it will likely ruin a garden hose unless it's rated for hot water. Hose will still work but will be weak.

I would get the hot water in there, let the block soak it up, then once it's good and warm I would add the boiling water to ramp it up a few more degrees. I don't know if this would even work but it looks good on paper. :smile:
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
It does seem like a good idea, I just cant figure out how to control it without making a mess. Im doing this in a carport on a gravel driveway with plywood as my flooring and have tools/bolts all over the floor under the car, and no radiator hooked up so whatever I pour into the upper end is going to come right out the bottom. I suppose I could buy a rubber stopper to put in the bottom hose to hold the water.

On another note, the jaw puller and some heat worked fine for me on the balancer. I had to heat the bolt with a map gas torch before it would come off with the impact. Then I put the puller on and cranked it til it started to turn the engine. I put a steel rod thru the timing gear to keep the engine from moving and with a little more heat on the pulley it turned off broke a little sweat turning it at first but over all not too bad. The puller I used was the big 3 jaw they sell at autozone for around $40. OEM is the brand and its got a liftime guarantee so if it gets wrecked you just take it back and get a new one
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
And there is no room whatsoever to get anything behind the pulley. The front cover is cast in a way that it actually bumps out and sits inside the pulley
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Catriderf7 said:
And there is no room whatsoever to get anything behind the pulley. The front cover is cast in a way that it actually bumps out and sits inside the pulley
Copy
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Catriderf7 said:
It does seem like a good idea, I just cant figure out how to control it without making a mess. Im doing this in a carport on a gravel driveway with plywood as my flooring and have tools/bolts all over the floor under the car, and no radiator hooked up so whatever I pour into the upper end is going to come right out the bottom. I suppose I could buy a rubber stopper to put in the bottom hose to hold the water.
A ball valve would be kinda pricey for a shut off valve....maybe a gatorade bottle jammed in the lower hose...with the top on....easy to twist off to get out of the hose, just keep turning to the right.... :biggrin:
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
You could jam an extra large beer bong hose in the lower hose and just hold it up above the fender until you need to drain it. :biggrin:
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
I wonder.... When I removed the exhaust manifold during my engine swap, some of the bolts snapped. I applied torch heat to red to the broken off pieces and they came out easily. Have heard that they used red Loctite on them so the heat would have released it.

Now, with these head bolts, I wonder if they put on red Loctite on them too, causing them to snap when trying to remove them?

Just an idea.
 

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