Head removal

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
I havent been able to find a single how-to thread on removing the head from the vortec 4.2l. I have low compression on cylinder 1 and want to pull the head to see what happened. I have the valve cover off and am going to proceed tonight with removing the cams if necessary? to undue the timing chain. I still need to pickup a service manual for timing purposes when reassembling and whatnot. But if I set the #1 cylinder to top dead center I should be good to remove the chain right? Ive read other posts about people saying to be carefull not to let the chain come off the crank but does it even matter since ill have the top end off anyway? Also how do I relieve/ reset the tension on the chain? I plan on replacing the head with a used low mile head that I found for $125 at a scrap yard, that is unless i find a hole in the piston or other damage.

If anyone could answer any or all of these questions Id appreciate it.

Thanks
 

felicie

Member
Jan 13, 2013
171
Have you thought of doing a leak down test, it will tell what the problem is without taking the head off. Are you familiar with this prosess?
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
Yeah I am. I believe I actually might have the components to make a tester myself too, Im going to try that. Im almost positive its a valve issue tho. The car went from running fine to suddenly missing, and has 0 compression. the other 5 cylinders have 195-205psi which really amazes me for a 170k mile engine
 
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gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Hope I'm not too late.....first thing I would do is try to determine where the leak is. A vacuum gauge will flutter if the intake valve is hanging, and a 3x5 index card folded against the exhaust outlet will snap back if it's the exhaust valve....this is most of the time, not 100% but a good starting point.

You could have a piece of carbon, part of a ring, something stuck in the valve seat, sometimes it will pop or backfire through the intake if it's the intake. I would pull the valve cover and see if any of the valves are hanging, should be easy to tell.

Please post progress before you think about pulling the head, it's somewhat involved and you don't want to drop the chain, especially since you have a 4WD.

Many people report breaking head bolts and I would think one way to help against this is to warm the block...question is how?

I was thinking about this months ago if I ever had to pull the head and I personally would want to try to release some of the tension on the bolts, one way is to warm the block and I thought of a block heater, or something that could warm the coolant without running the engine. Not sure what is out there but another option is to fill the block with hot water after you drain the coolant.

Right before you are ready to break the head bolts loose, I would fill the block with hot water...maybe 180-200 degrees and that's just a guess. Maybe go with 120-140 deg water to warm it slowly initially, then drain and add some hot water. This should expand the aluminum much quicker than the hard steel bolts. Then, rap on the head bolts with a hammer before you turn them.

I honestly feel this is a better way then going about it with a cold block....it's at least worth a shot and physics is on your side.


Now for the important part.....don't try to mess with the timing chain until you have an understanding of what all those bolts hold together under the cam chain cover...ie. the valve cover in the front. Get yourself an appropriate tool to hold the chain in place, and make sure it's secure. Once it's secure, use a bungee strap with a hook and make a secondary catch just in case it comes loose.

Make no mistake, if you drop the chain, your nightmare has only begun. You will need to pull all 3 cross members, the steering rack, the front suspension needs to be separated to pull the axle shafts from the oil pan, the front diff needs to be removed from the oil pan, then the oil pan, then the front timing chain cover which means everything from the fan to the accessories bolted to the front cover.

At this point you would replace the front cover since it's the oil pump since it's a mountain of labor saved if it ever goes, as well as the rod bearings since the pan is off.


Morale of the story is...... Don't drop the chain.
 
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Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
Thanks for the replies. Ill do a leak down test tomorrow, I didnt have the right thread size for the spark plug hole to make one here. I already have the intake manifold, and valve cover off right now. I wont do anything with the timing chain yet then. I wasnt able to find anything out of the ordinary on the 1st cylinder once the valve cover was off. No broken springs or anything.

Doesnt the tension tool they sell that hooks onto the chain use the head as the point it tightens up against? making it impossible to remove the head with it in place?

And Yes I also was thinking about how to heat the head bolts before removal after I read about people having better luck with loosening the bolts after hitting them with hammers. I was thinking of using a heat gun since a torch would just set the oil on fire. And then of course tap them with the hammer, or maybe slowly have a half inch impact gun tapping on it.
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
Funny I just rebuilt the engine on my Chrysler 300c Awd with the 5.7 a couple months ago and had the same setup with the AWD running thru the oil pan. I decided I wouldnt do another one. Little did I know these trailblazers/Envoys were the same type of setup
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
I wish I could help with the chain but I haven't explored that area.

I would probably not heat the bolts as you want the block to heat before the bolt. There's alot of aluminum to absorb the heat which is why I recommend heating the block. I would fill it half way with about 140 deg water, let it soak...then top it off with boiling or near boiling water.

I've never done this but is how I would go about it.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,317
Ottawa, ON
This is a very famous thread detailing the removal of the head. Suffice to say it ended in failure due to broken head bolts necessitating pulling the entire engine and a bad machining job on the rebuilt head. It's a long read but very informative:
http://gmtnation.com/forums/topic/4373-42l-i6-head-removalengine-restoration/#entry85017

I have a feelig that they snap because they are torque to yield and stretched to the limit. Apart from preventing the chain from falling, you aslsdo have to prevent the chain tensioner from pushing out and "shortening" the chain so you have to keep tension on it. Those hook tools to prevent the chain from falling do use the head to hold it in place. There is another tool, which looks like a small pickle fork, is used to jam the chain against the tensioner to keep it in place but you still have to use wire or something to prevent the chain from dropping. Otherwise, it's the nightmare scenario. It's not as bad as what gmcman described. Only one crossmember needs to come out and the rack and pinion can stay in place. BTW, I have to pull the timing chain out because the tensioner died and allowing the chain to flop around while idling. If you do have to go in there, I recommend replacing it as a preventive measure.

BTW, check my sig for manuals, which has the instructions you need, except preventing the head bolts from snapping.
 
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Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
Thanks for the link, Ill read thru it later after it gets dark out. I bought a leak down test today. Got the timing marks up and the piston as high as it will go. And the air seems to be leaking out the exhaust as fast as its going into the engine.


Huh, I must have some time settings messed up. Its 5:47pm here and it says I posted this at 11:47pm
 

felicie

Member
Jan 13, 2013
171
Did you make sure that it was on TDC on the compression stroke In the cylinder in question?
 

IllogicTC

Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
Catriderf7 said:
Funny I just rebuilt the engine on my Chrysler 300c Awd with the 5.7 a couple months ago and had the same setup with the AWD running thru the oil pan. I decided I wouldnt do another one. Little did I know these trailblazers/Envoys were the same type of setup
But it makes more sense there, since the car isn't exactly designed for higher clearance. They're road-huggers!


Also when removing the head, there is a special tool that snaps onto the backs of the cams to hold them in their proper position; I'm betting if you have some basic machining or wood-working skills, you can measure up the flats on the back and work something up to slap on there without tossing tons of cash at Spent-More (sorry, Kent-Moore) for a hopefully one-time-use tool that's for one single purpose.
 
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Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
felicie said:
Did you make sure that it was on TDC on the compression stroke In the cylinder in question?
Yes. The timing marks on the cams were lined up with dark links on the chain.

And yes thats true about the car.

About the cams I wasnt aware of this tool ill have to try to find it to see what it is. I already ordered that convenient, but ridiculously expensive $135 wedge tool for the timing chan tensioner. Im strongly considering just buying a used engine. Theres lots of them around for about $600. I would really hate to have to spend the money on all these specialty tools and parts and have $500 into this job when I couldve just spent $600 and replaced the entire thing without having to mess with taking all the internal stuff apart. Not to mention the whole head bolt snapping issue. I think if I snap a head bolt thats going to be enough to for me to say screw it and pickup a different engine.
 

IllogicTC

Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
A borescope would be a pretty-good use of money to hopefully aid in diagnosis. If it doesn't, there's always other uses for it.
 

felicie

Member
Jan 13, 2013
171
That $600 sounds like a good deal, and it seems that you have means to test it?
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
IllogicTC said:
A borescope would be a pretty-good use of money to hopefully aid in diagnosis. If it doesn't, there's always other uses for it.
I have a bore scope, i could see the top of the piston/cylinder walls but thats it going thru the spark plug hole.

felicie said:
That $600 sounds like a good deal, and it seems that you have means to test it?
I wouldnt have a means to test it (Other than compression) until its in the car. But for $600-$700 theres a few with 100k-125k miles that are tested by the salvage yards and warrantied for 90days to 6 months depending on the company. Surprising how cheap they are. I know the 5.7 in my chrysler is a bigger motor but those were $2300 all the way up to $3500 at salvage yards with 140k miles+. So that makes the $600-$700 engines pretty appealing.
 

felicie

Member
Jan 13, 2013
171
The only other thing is removing the engine from a 4x4 is a lot of work.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Can you see if the one of the valves are hanging open on the exhaust side? Do they open at the same time if you bump the starter?

Moose: I meant to say the rack just needs to be suspended and pulled from the cross member.

Out of curiosity, how do you remove only 1 cross member to pull the pan? If that's the case then that's great...gives me warm fuzzies if I need to pull my pan. :smile:
 

Texan

Member
Jan 14, 2014
622
Just a thought. Remove exhaust manifold and inspect exhaust valves on #1 cyl.
Could it be a broken valve spring?
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
The valve cover and intake manifold are off of the engine. Valve springs look fine. I assume that one of the exhaust valves are burnt or chipped. Leak down test resulted in air escaping thru the exhaust. I dont really care to spend any time diagnosing further, either way at this point the head needs to come off to fix it, whatever the issue is. Ill get the borescope in there tomorrow to check for damage to the cylinder walls but there was no engine noise when it was running. Just a missfire, so I dont think there was anything bouncing around in the cylinder. It has been using oil at a pretty fast rate for the past year or so

I guess it could just be carbon build up? the spark plug from this cylinder was black and all corboned up. I dont know if its from the oil this cyl was burning or if it just happend the day it started misfiring. it was probably ran for a good half hour after it started running rough
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,317
Ottawa, ON
gmcman said:
Moose: I meant to say the rack just needs to be suspended and pulled from the cross member.

Out of curiosity, how do you remove only 1 cross member to pull the pan? If that's the case then that's great...gives me warm fuzzies if I need to pull my pan. :smile:
I'm just going by what's in the manual I'm attacking this one starting later today so I'll be learning as I go. Will likely do a tutorial.
 
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Mounce

Member
Mar 29, 2014
13,667
Tuscaloosa, AL
Catriderf7 said:
I guess it could just be carbon build up? the spark plug from this cylinder was black and all corboned up. I dont know if its from the oil this cyl was burning or if it just happend the day it started misfiring. it was probably ran for a good half hour after it started running rough
Might have worn out rings on that piston... That would explain oil loss and compression loss. Do you know that it's the exhaust valve leaking or are you assuming that's what it is? Either way, rings or valve, the head has to come off. It'd be better if it was a valve though, if it was the rings you'd have to tear into it much deeper to replace them.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
If the spring is broken, perhaps you could remove the exhaust manifold and use a long nose vise grip and grab the stem? If there's sufficient clearance cover the jaws with vinyl tubing. Worst case if you scuff the stem it's not in an area that rides in the guide so no worries.

I would try that before pulling the head.
 

BlazingTrails

Member
Apr 27, 2014
19,409
I have heard of people using the leak down tool to pressurize the cylinder to change springs.

Also

"yep.....feed the rope into the cylinder (put a knot in the end to keep it from going all the way in)....rotate the motor by hand slowly, until resistance is felt. Inexpensive, hillbilly way to do it & it works".

That sounds completely awesome!
 
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gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
BlazingTrails said:
I have heard of people using the leak down tool to pressurize the cylinder to change springs.
Also
"yep.....feed the rope into the cylinder (put a knot in the end to keep it from going all the way in)....rotate the motor by hand slowly, until resistance is felt. Inexpensive, hillbilly way to do it & it works".
That sounds completely awesome!
I agree, I've heard of that before but has been awhile.

Also, probably can't pressurize the cylinder with the leak.
 
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felicie

Member
Jan 13, 2013
171
It's not the leak down tool it's just compressed air pumped into the cylinder with no restriction.
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
The springs look fine but ill try looking at them again to see if they feel loose or something.
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
Cant really tell anything with the borescope. other than the Piston looks fine. no chips or holes. The light in the scope just makes the cylinder walls all reflective so I cant tell if theyre scored. turned the engine by hand a few times and the valves seem to be working how they should. I cant wiggle the springs and dont see any breaks in them. They look like they are sitting nice and evenly
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Not trying to insult your intelligence but I have to ask.....

You are looking at both valves for cyl 1 correct? The front valve is hidden behind the cam phaser hardware and is slightly out of sight.

Just want to be sure since the compression is going somewhere.

What does your coolant look like?
 

felicie

Member
Jan 13, 2013
171
I just reread what you said is happening during the leak down, sorry do not know how to do that box thing. If air is going out the exhaust it is most definitely a exhaust valve, if it was the rings or blow by the air would go into the oil pan come out the dip stick or fill cap. If it was the intake valve it would come out the intake, and if it was the head gasket it would come out the cooling system air bubbles in the radiator.
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
Yes lol, the valves are pretty open and easy to see. At least I think so. Unless your short and unable to lean under the hood over the engine I guess

The coolant question made me wonder tho, I never checked the coolant. So I did the test again, and it does actually seem to be leaking into the coolant. The gauge on the leak down test shows "Moderate leakage" and when i took the radiator cap off the coolant slowly rose up and started to overflow. so now its looking more like a head gasket. Maybe I just didnt have the engine at the exact right point last time when I heard the exhaust leak

Strange thing is the coolant looks fine. Wasnt being burned, never had to ad any to it. Its nice and orange/pink like it should be
 

felicie

Member
Jan 13, 2013
171
Maybe that the gasket has not deteriorated to the point were liquid was able to pass, just the air pleasure on the combustion stroke.
 

jimmyjam

Member
Nov 18, 2011
1,634
idk, its pretty rare to blow an MLS head gasket.

last time someone posted that they blew a head gasket, it ended up being something else IIRC
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
Yep scratch that whole post. I just pulled the radiator cap off again with no air pressure going into the engine and the coolant still started to overflow. I think its just the temperature change. The engine is cold, but the body of the car is pretty warm from the sun shining on it all day. I put the leak down tester on it again and turned the pressure up higher this time and i could hear quietly coming out the exhaust pipe. I should have that tension tool for the timing chain tomorrow, And ill be pulling the head off
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Just a thought....if it were mine, I would pull the exhaust manifold since it's wise to change the bolts anyway once the head is off. Only problem is if you don't need to pull the head and break the rear bolt...it's a major pita to extract.

I would try to secure the valve somehow with the piston at TDC then lower it by hand and look at the valve face through the spark plug hole with a scope.
 

Catriderf7

Original poster
Member
Sep 16, 2014
47
Im going to take the manifold off again to aid in head removal. I just had the manifold off to replace it due to cracks in it last weekend. None of the manifold bolts broke.

I cant see the valve with the scope. When you stick it thru the spark plug hole its looking straight at the piston, theres no way to turn it around and face it up at the valve
 

Texan

Member
Jan 14, 2014
622
If you had a cracked exhaust manifold, you may have a warped valve.
Remove exhaust manifold and use your scope to look in through the exhaust
port in the head. Rotate by hand to open valves.
 

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