Has anyone here used "Red Tek" 12a Freon/Refrigerant?

[hockeyman]

My '11 Acadia has a decent a/c temp, but I'd like to try and get it a bit colder. I know I should just check and top off what's needed, but I have been reading on Red Tek's site saying that their refrigerant operates at a lower head pressure, improved cooling properties and requires much less product. [Example]: My Acadia says the a/c specs are 37 ounces, so I will only need 13 ounces of Red Tek to do the job.

http://redtek.com/English/product.asp?ID=26
and...
http://redtek.com/English/product.asp?ID=18

Anyhow, has anyone here used it before?
Did you notice any difference in the a/c output temp compared to other 134a refrigerant brands?
Would there be any difference in fuel economy with lower compressor/head pressure?

If I do this, the plan would be to take the old 134a out and have it recycled, then put a vacuum on the whole system and install the Red Tek with my manifold gauges.

Got into a conversation at my local bar a few nights ago and one guy there mentioned to me that since the Red Tek is flammable, it's quite possible that they're selling regular propane in the 6 ounce cans. And I couldn't really tell if he was joking or not...

 

[Mooseman]

It's basically propane. Really.

 

[mrrsm]

Unlike LNG (Liquid Natural Gas)...Propane tends towards exploding when mixed with ambient air... and should an R12A or an R22A leak happen in your Evaporator within the occupied parts of the vehicle with an ignition source present...or if the Condenser Coil gets punctured during a collision ...and the same types of ready ignition sources from a sparking Battery, or Steel on Steel sparks ignite the stuff under pressure... there would be an uncontrolled Flaming Jet shooting out from underneath the Dashboard (or under the hood with the Condenser Coil) ...possibly becoming a fully involved fire with anything else that is flammable catching fire as a result.

Many years ago... some Australian HVAC Experts were performing a test involving just such an event... and an explosion happened while one of the Techs was still sitting in the Passenger's Seat. The windows (which had been purposely rolled up )...and the man's ear drums were violently blown out and his clothing caught fire. He received facial injuries from the explosively propelled debris...and serious, but not fatal second degree burns. Fortunately, this did not occur while he was driving the small Test Vehicle.

If either of these events were to happen in your situation... your Insurance Company would probably not indemnify you if the Accident Investigators and/or local Fire Officials discovered that a Non-HCFC or Non-HFC Gas was used inside of the A/C Unit... assuming you were still alive in the aftermath to argue the issue with them. The Europeans have been using R-12A and R-22A inside of their very small refrigeration units for quite some time now... but where there is far less than a full pound or three of the stuff is involved. Ordinarily... it is scented with a Pine-like odor so as to draw attention to this very serious problem. But... Hmmmm.

 

[I_Shoot_Back]

Unlike LNG (Liquid Natural Gas)...Propane tends towards exploding when mixed thus... with ambient air... and should an R22A leak happen in your Evaporator inside the occupied parts of the vehicle occur with an ignition source present...or if the Condenser Coil gets punctured during a collision ...and the same ignition from a sparking Battery, or Steel on Steel sparks ignite the stuff under pressure. If either of these were to happen... your Insurance Company would probably not indemnify you... assuming you were alive to argue the issue with them. The Europeans have been using R-22A inside of their small refrigeration units, but where far less than a full pound of the stuff is involved. Ordinarily.. .it is scented with a Pine like odor to draw attention to this problem.

But is it colder tho?

 

[Bow_Tied]

Propane can explode but is less volatile than the gasoline which runs in tiny tubes the length of the vehicle. The flammability limit in air is low. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammability_limit

I am not saying the HC based refrigerants are completely safe, but there is perspective to consider vs. gasoline for accident impact. I recommend the OP read a lot more on forums dedicated to the topic before making a decision.

 

[hockeyman]

Damn, never thought of it from an accident perspective...

I am trying to find forums on Red Tek, but they're few and far between. I literally just read the one on the Ford site that was posted on 6-20-14. Yeah, propane.

I will go ahead and top off my system with regular 134a, but still curious on this red tek stuff. I will do some more research.

Thank you to all for the replies and help!

On a side note; I was doing research on R22 freon about a year ago for the fact that I may needed some added to my pool heat pump outside, and found stuff called Ecofreeez. Site says that it's completely compatible with R22 systems, but now know that I'd basically be buying propane...just and a higher cost.

 

[NJTB]

As an aside, let's not forget propane (at least R12, don't know about the others), mixed with freon makes fosgene (SIC?) gas, used in WW1 to kill people.

 

[Sparky]

Well to be fair, breathing a bunch of propane or gasoline fumes isn't really gonna do you many favors either

 

[m.mcmillen]

On a side note; I was doing research on R22 freon about a year ago for the fact that I may needed some added to my pool heat pump outside

Something you should look into, it is called MO99. It is a direct drop-in replacement for R22.

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338077216&icep_item=302345009433

The fleet I maintain has a coach bus and the a/c system on it is R22. The front seal on the compressor went out and leaked most of the refrigerant out. Since it holds 25 pounds and with R22 being over $100 per pound, I was going to buy the kit to change it over to 134a. I called the bus dealer I buy parts from and he told me to not waste my time with 134a and to use this stuff. He told me to change the oil in the system and change the dryer. It works just as well as it did before.

 

[hockeyman]

Something you should look into, it is called MO99. It is a direct drop-in replacement for R22.

Good to know. I wouldn't need that much R22 in the pool heater since the freon is only within the unit itself. There are no copper lines running into the house, but I wouldn't pay that much for it anyhow. If there were no other 22 alternatives, I'd simply pay to have it converted to something newer.

Thank you!

 

[littleblazer]

Duracool is another one. I wouldn't be too worried about it being propane considering r1234 is essentially the same... it's a floronated propane pr something like that...

 

[Chickenhawk]

Lots of people in Canada have experience with Red Tek, which is a brand name for R12a. Yes, it is mostly propane, which is of course flammable. But so is gasoline. The oil in air conditioning systems is more flammable than the small amount of propane in R12a. There have been no documented cases of vehicle fires or injuries from R12a in an accident in Canada. Little know fact: pyro technicians use propane to create those big fiery explosions that you see in action movies. It is the safest material for this purpose because the resulting explosion causes a large pressure wave and huge fireball but the fireball dissipates very rapidly. It is not as easily ignited as gasoline and when ignited, the explosion is less likely to cause secondary fires. (That's why we use propane for fireball explosions on film sets.) Obviously, the explosion and resultant fireball is very dangerous to anything or anyone nearby, and propane in larger quantities can gather in pockets near the ground but I would certainly worry less about the small amount in an air conditioning system versus the large amount of gasoline in our cars.

When reading users reviews and internet forums, there is a certain amount of misinformation and scare stories that have been originally created by the air conditioning industry who sees their livelihood being reduced by home DIYers. Forum users often perpetuate these stories and myths because they "read it somewhere." Also, a lot of forum members don't understand the difference between R12 (Freon) and R12a such as Red Tek. They are vastly different products.

If I had a vehicle with R12 that needed a recharge, I would most assuredly use Red Tek to replace the R12 instead of trying to convert to R134a. (A very pricey alternative to get an older system working.)

If I had an R134a system like in our Trailblazers, I would use R134a to top it up. Yes, Red Tek can result in cooler temps but if I add or use Red Tek, I am limiting the ability of an air conditioning tech from working on it in the future. If you add Red Tek, it comes with a label to identify it, and you should always tell any techs in the future. They will need to completely vacuum all the Red Tek out of the entire system before they can work on it.

The proper way is to vacuum the entire system of R134a and to replace it with Red Tek using both a system of weight, plus a set of low pressure and high pressure gauges.

That being said, lots of people in Canada have simply added a can of Red Tek at home without doing anything else. (It mixes just fine with either R12 or R134a.) If a very slow leak is causing problems, it often fixes it with no ill effects. (Stupid people who can't read instructions or don't know how to read a pressure gauge probably shouldn't do this because there are major consequences to overfilling the system.)

But even adding a can of Red Tek means informing any future techs before they work on the system and it will increase the cost of the repairs.

When my system stopped running once or twice in really hot weather last month, I decided to add R134a instead of Red Tek because I felt that if the seals leak in the future and I needed it serviced, I wanted to keep the system pure.

Before I added a can of R134a, I bought the Red Tek gauge and hose kit from Canadian Tire. I ordered the R134a from Amazon.

The Red Tek gauge and hose kit broke the very first time I used it. The slip collar for the low pressure port jammed upwards and I could not get a good seal. When I examined it closely, two of the four detent balls have fallen right out. It is now in the garbage. The problem is that if the quality of their stupid hose is so bad, I question the quality of their entire product line.

 

[littleblazer]

I get about 33 degrees out my vent on 90+ days. That being said I know newer gm ac isn't the same.

 

[m.mcmillen]

You mentioned R22 several times. Do you guys use that in Canada? Older cars here use r12.

When I mentioned the bus, I just wanted to be clear that in fact does have R22 which is normally used in stationary HVAC units. It actually uses the same compressor as stationary units. The only difference is the bus compressor has a belt drive on it.

 

[Chickenhawk]

Sorry, I meant to write R12 instead of R22.

 

[Dr.Fiero]

I've been using Duracool for many many years. Before it came along, I was blending my own mix that turned out to be about the same. Propane & isobutane (high altitude camp stove fuel).

It works great. And as pointed out, it's far safer than the gas that runs the car (from an accident perspective). Gas leaks and puddles. The propane mix simply turns to vapour and 'goes away' in the slightest breeze, never reaching its stoichiometric ratio.

Another bonus is that you don't need to pull a full vacuum before injecting it into the system (not everyone has a pump). Replaced your dryer, orifice tube, or whatever that's had the whole system open? You can just shoot it right in. There's nothing in it that will turn to acid if there's water vapour present (the problem with r12!).

If you CAN pull a small vac (10" or so), it just makes it easier to pull it in.

 

[hockeyman]

Well, I will still check my system to first see if the 134a is low before doing anything. If it is, I know it's possible that I have a leak somewhere and need to address it. I might add dye and check a week later.

My a/c has been working since I bought this vehicle back in Dec of 2016, but I think it could be colder. It just takes a bit too long (for me) to cool the interior. The wife agrees.

 

[m.mcmillen]

I just bout a 2012 Acadia a few weeks ago and it freezes everyone out (except me, colder is better!). My kids are sitting in the back with blankets even after we turn off the rear a/c.

It sounds like something is up with yours.

 

[hockeyman]

I just bout a 2012 Acadia a few weeks ago and it freezes everyone out (except me, colder is better!). My kids are sitting in the back with blankets even after we turn off the rear a/c.

It sounds like something is up with yours.

I agree. Could be that it was flushed and filled prior to when I bought it. Don't know. Maybe just has a leak in it when it's charged at a certain pressure...??

Either way, I'm going to check the pressure and put a dye into it this weekend. I'll drive it for a week or two, then check it with a UV light. I just created this thread thinking that maybe Red Tek is a better and possibly colder alternative. I want my interior temps just as cold as you're describing on your '12!

*Oh, with the hopes of maybe the previous owner(s) having an issue and putting dye into the system already, I recently checked and did not find any sign of a leak.

 

[m.mcmillen]

GM usually puts die in the system from the factory. Maybe there's an actuator or something causing a problem if the system isn't low.

I changed the compressor on a 2013 Impala and a 2006 Express van last week. Both had dye in the system and both had said on the label from the factory that has the refrigerant amounts on it that it had dye in the system.

 

[mrrsm]

Look... Everyone is entitled to their own opinions about whether or not to use any variants or flavors of an HVAC Substitute that contains Propane in ANY amounts of a substantial enough quantity to replace the original volume and mass of the Freon Class Refrigerant. However, we are not entitled to have our own sets of Facts. And THESE are the Facts about using this stuff:

(1) Gasoline... is neither as Volatile nor as Explosive as Propane Gas.

(2) Gasoline is volatile on its exposed surface areas and burns only as it evaporates into ambient Air Pressure at a Room Temperature...as a pure Liquid. However... Propane MUST remain compressed to liquefied condition and will only remain so when it remains confined within a closed compression cylinder. Once any leak occurs... virtually all of the 1-3 Lbs of Propane will escape without stopping.... Regardless of whether the Propane is being used in a Bar-B-Cue Stove ...or an Auto HVAC System . The Gasoline leaks will of course burn from the top down in any puddles at ambient temperatures of the stuff once ignited.

(3) Once exposed to atmospheric pressure ... Propane immediately goes through a "Phase Change" or "Change of State" from its liquefied form ...into a Gaseous Cloud. If this were not true... you simply could NOT use it as an HVAC Refrigeration Substitute. You will never hear of anyone using Gasoline for this purpose, as it fails to possess these same chemical and physical properties.

(4) Trying to explain that "Gasoline running through Metal Lines is just as dangerous" as the Freon inside of the A/C Lines and A/C Evaporator is a facile and erroneous argument. Of necessity, HVAC Freon Lines and the Evaporator Coils are always present INSIDE of the confined spaces of all vehicles. There are NO Gasoline lines running through and present within any Cars and Trucks in this like manner.

(5) The fact that so far, nobody has described any empirical evidence to prove that Propane is actually very much more dangerous than one might think...simply because they've never seen it happen with their own vehicles ...is also not an argument that this cannot and has not happened to others before.

(6) Real Safety does not arise from thinking about what has NOT happened a lot... but from realizing that if something Bad COULD happen, however RARELY... Then eventually... it WILL HAPPEN if all of the elements involved are in concert with either accident and misfortune and component failure. And thus... this should make us all very wary of inviting this danger. THAT is the true scenario to think upon and then we can all make an informed decision to either use Propane as an HVAC Refrigerant Substitute ... or Not.

(7) We can remain 'Good Stewards of Our Brothers' by not suffering from any deliberate "Failures of Imagination" when it comes to considering potentially dangerous events... and steer one another away from harm. This Video demonstration will provide a more than equivalent comparison as to what would happen if an Auto HVAC System filled with Propane pressured to 125-150 PSI...equalized on both the High and Low sides of the system... sprang a leak inside of the Evaporator Coil under the Dashboard ...and a very small ignition source was present... or even if a very small spark from a short circuit occurred:

 

[littleblazer]

So I'll do some math real quick. Afr required for propane to combust is around 26:1 so 26 grams of air to 1 gram of propane. Let us assume the car is a perfectly sealed vessel. Let us also assume that the full can of redtek is 100% propane or 11 ounces of liquified propane. Down and dirty conversion gives ~160 grams. So let us just round that up to 200 just to be safe. Cargo volume of a trailblazer is 80 cubic feet. So that's roughly 2900 grams of air. 2900/200 is 14.6. Cargo volume of the truck doesn't include drivers area. That being said you are within the stoic for combustion... if the cabin is perfectly sealed and you only leak propane into it. Actual cabin volume is probably closer to 120 cubic feet that stoich ratio comes out to be about 27:1.

My conclusion, if your car is sealed up and it leaks out into the cabin and diffuses them yes... it is dangerous. In reality, to have a leak that bad you wouldn't be charging it to begin with or you're in a massive accident and that would be the least of your worries. Again, I don't think it is that big of an issue.

 

[Chickenhawk]

That car explosion is EXACTLY what I predicted - a massive pressure wave and a fireball that burns itself out so fast that is doesn't cause any secondary fires. This jives with houses completely destroyed when someone has foolishly stored a 20-pound barbeque propane tank inside their house, and the house explodes with enough force to destroy even a neighbor or two, but rarely starts any secondary fires.

Watching that video, you can see exactly why our pyro techs use propane for fireball explosions for action movies. Everyone must be WELL away, because that presure wave can really travel, and it can toss debris for 100 feet easily. BUT the fireball is so fast that it can only be captured at full intensity by a high speed camera filming it in slo-motion. (That's why every explosion you see on television is in slow motion!)

The video is impressive but let's not forget that they filled the car with 20 pounds of propane (320 ounces) which is a far cry from 11 ounces in a can of Red Tek. They also sealed the car with tape on all the seams to better contain the gas.

Yes, propane is potentially dangerous. I have seen barbeque lids being tossed two blocks away. But in my opinion, one shouldn't worry about the small amount of propane in Red Tek when the oil in the air conditioning lines might not explode, but in a car fire, it will burn and will be far more difficult to extinguish.

 

[Mooseman]

And for that to happen, it would have to leak at the evaporator into the cabin. Not unheard of but not common. My '02 had a leaking evaporator and was a slow'ish leak, lasting a day on a fill.

Now you would think that if there had been explosions reported using these propane based refrigerants, the various government safety agencies would have pulled these products off the shelf. In all the years that it has been on the market, you would think by now that any such incidents would have been reported but so far, zilch.

And aren't there commercial building systems that use basically the same stuff?

 

[mrrsm]

In this video... The German Car Industry Safety people were comparing what would happen in Head-On Collisions if the A/C system were compromised and two different Refrigerants were released in the presence of ahot engine (probably turbocharged as well) ....first by using R-134A and then the New Drop In called R1234YF... supposedly its replacement that GM intends to begin using at the EOL and Phase Out of R-134A.

The results are surprisingly scary...as according to the attached WIKI on R-1234YF describe not only how flammable it can become...but that it also releases a pair of highly corrosive acids that emerge as the stuff catches fire and burns away.

Here is the WIKI on R-1234YF

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,3,3,3-Tetrafluoropropene#Flammability

 

[Mooseman]

In both. they purposely created the conditions to cause them to catch on fire or explode. The first one was just an idiot. Second one, looks and sounds like they're revving the crap out of it and disabled the high pressure switch.

Smells a lot like this:

 

[littleblazer]

In both. they purposely created the conditions to cause them to catch on fire or explode. The first one was just an idiot. Second one, looks and sounds like they're revving the crap out of it and disabled the high pressure switch.

Smells a lot like this:

Lol. I heard about this. It was apparently safer than any other gas tank location in testing even when compared to dodge or ford.

 

[hockeyman]

Update:
I checked the system last night and it was infact low. I poured a small amount of dye into the charging line and charged the system up with regular 134a. I will not vacuum out the system and put any new type of freon in it until a leak (if any) is located and fixed. Since I have rear a/c controls, I guess I'll have to remove a few rear panels and check the lines for leaks back there, also. Not sure exactly what panel(s) to remove and where to look...yet. I will drive it for a week or so and check back here with my results with a UV light.

It'll be fun looking for a UV leak with all of the snakes that litter my driveway at night.