Finding the proper full size tow vehicle

Busterbrown

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
253
Last weekend, my wife and I had a chance to visit the biggest Camper and RV exhibition show of the year in the Detroit area. It motivated us to move forward on a future travel trailer purchase. But before our next big ticket purchase, we have to think about mating it with an appropriate tow vehicle. I love my 06 Rainier but the GMT360's in my eyes won't tow any TT weighing north of 5000 lbs SAFELY. No way am I selling it as it still has a purpose in our family.

I'm looking for some recommendations on a full size SUV/Pickup that could accommodate up to 9,000 lbs of tow weight. Trailers that interest us range from 6,600 to 8,200 lbs.

The remaining criteria includes a $30,000 max price, 2006+ model years, and one damn good reliable power-plant. I've opened up the doors to light and medium duty trucks as well as body-on-frame, full-size SUV's. Any truck would have to be a crew cab.

Options I've been exploring include:
  • 2006-2007 Sierra/Silverado 2500 Duramax 6.6L (per Duramax diesel forums as later models snuff power and efficiency via added emission controls)
  • 2007+ Tahoe/Yukon/Denali with either 6.0L or 6.2L gasser
  • 2007+ Suburban/Yukon XL 2500 series
  • Mid 2000 Ford Excursion with 7.3L turbodiesel
  • Late model Ram with the Cummings 6.7L diesel
  • 12 Generation Ford F150 (2009-2014) 6.2L gasser
  • Late 2000's Ford F250 6.4L Powerstroke Diesel V8

I'm really considering a diesel as they offer a compelling advantage of low-end torque not to mention their longevity. Long-term maintenance and ownership costs have to be addressed as I plan on keeping this rig for the greater portion of a decade. As far as light-duty trucks, it seems the newer models have very nice towing capacities. Just don't know how they would handle pulling 8000lbs across high-elevation passes. The Yukon's and Tahoe's are options with the larger engine but I'm still not sure on long distance marathan trips.

Finally...fuel economy. I've been reading that some of these turbo diesels can manage respectable mileage even under load. I know some consideration has to be placed on gear ratios and overdrive gears when it comes to mpgs. Again, more personal experience is requested as I have never towed with full size vehicles before.

Much appreciated....
 

Playsinsnow

Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
How many miles a year will you tow? I wouldn't worry about the elevations, everyone struggles up the big grades. If you can tow it, don't race up grades and you'll be fine. Unless you are driving them weekly.


My experience with the power strokes is that the turbo holds its mpgs. Tow 7500lbs or nothing and we got the same mileage. Gassers will lose more when towing.

I have towed 2,200 miles one way. If you can safely tow it, comfort is inside the truck. Yukon would be nice driving west.


:twocents: Find a cherry someone hasn't towed with. Big motor GM or Ferd.
 

Bartonmd

Member
Nov 20, 2011
545
You say "light and medium duty," but I only see light duty trucks up there. I'd stay away from medium duty, as they can really only be serviced at MD/HD truck dealers and service centers, which are much less prevalent than the Chevy or Ford dealer that every town has. Plus, they stock parts for semis a lot of the time, as they're all similar, but medium duty trucks tend to be kind of an "in between" and are not all that standardized. It's fine if you're towing 20k# all the time, but there's no need for a medium duty truck to tow a 9k trailer.

Now, in light duty trucks (1-ton or less), to tow 9k, I'd go gas. The newer diesels are so expensive to fix, and not as reliable as the older diesels, that I'd stay away from a diesel if you don't tow more than 10k# more than 50% of the miles that the truck does. The gas engines, especially with the 6-speed automatics, really, REALLY tow very well! The Max package of 1/2 ton Silverado is rated to tow 10k, and my sister had one which she liked, but it's still a 1/2 ton and you can feel it in the frame and suspension.

Me, personally, I'd go with a 6.0 or 6.2L Chevy 2500HD with the 6-speed automatic (I think that's 2009+) or the Ford F250 SD with the 6.2 V8 gasser. If you're going 4WD, the Chevy will ride much better.

ETA: I had a Cummins tow pig and went to a 2002 K2500HD 6.0/NV4500. Even though the mileage is lower, the cost per mile of fuel is the same or less with the gas, because gas is so much cheaper per gallon and you don't have to use the pump lubricant additive or the DEF on the newer ones. No more worrying about if this gas station has diesel, or getting a load of wet diesel from someplace other than a truck stop (let alone getting fuel at a low altitude, then having it gel when you head over a mountain in the winter). Parts are cheap and easy to replace. I just like owning it a lot better.

Mike
 

glfredrick

Member
Jan 14, 2014
172
I've towed with almost everything down through the years, including towing my off-road rig behind the Trailblazer (close to 8000 lbs on a 2-axle heavy trailer). I've had Ford F250s with 390 and 460, Chevy big block trucks, and have even towed with many of my cars like a Chevelle, Lumina, Rav4, etc.

I switched to an older (95) Dodge with the 12-valve Cummins diesel and the difference is remarkable. I get 16-18 mpg towing (same load above! -- 24 mpg running empty) and I can run with traffic. Hills? What hills... :biggrin: Just spool up the turbo and let it sing. Only time I have to back off is when my exhaust gas temps start to peg 1300F, and if driven right, that rarely happens, even when pulling through the Ozarks or other hilly areas like Kentucky or Tenessee (we pull our off-road rigs all over the country for UCORA events).

Of course, I've bumped up my power levels some -- my rig stock was configured to 160 HP and about 400 lb-ft torque. I'm now at about 325 hp and 750 lb-ft torque. Added fuel air, exhaust, different profile on lift pump, governor springs, and timing advance. I run 265 X 70X16 rubber (not dually) with 3.54 gears, which the Cummins just LOVES because it makes most of its power so low in the rpm range. My max revs are about 3600 rpm and most of my power is in by 2200 rpm.

I run next to guys with gassers, one has a new Toyota V-8, another a Chevy with the big engine. They do ok, but their fuel mileage is no where near mine, either towing or empty, nor can they pull hills with me. I'm always coasting over the top and waiting for them to catch up.

I'll never look back to gas rigs for towing heavy. But, I also realize there are trade-offs when moving to diesel. Fuel costs more (thanks to new regulations put in place by Clinton to mandate sulfur removal) parts cost more, oil changes and filters cost more, and the heavy E-range tires cost more, but if you want real towing capacity then that is the price you pay, and it is REAL towing capacity.
 

AV8ER

Member
Apr 19, 2012
260
For an idea of fuel mileage with a big gas, my fathers 2003 Avalanche 2500 with the 8.1L and 3.73gears gets about 8mpg with 10k lbs behind it. My mothers 01 excursion with the 6.8 v10 gas got about 9mpg with the same trailer. Both tow 10k without much struggle mountains and all just no remarkable fuel mileage.
 

Bartonmd

Member
Nov 20, 2011
545
AV8ER said:
For an idea of fuel mileage with a big gas, my fathers 2003 Avalanche 2500 with the 8.1L and 3.73gears gets about 8mpg with 10k lbs behind it. My mothers 01 excursion with the 6.8 v10 gas got about 9mpg with the same trailer. Both tow 10k without much struggle mountains and all just no remarkable fuel mileage.

An 8.1 in a truck tows better and gets better mileage. They didn't want to redesign the frame and tunnel on the Avalanche and the 'burb (same thing) for the Allison, so they put the 4L85E behind the 8.1 in those, and torque-managed the crap out of it to get those transmissions to live behind the 8.1. The trucks got the 5-speed Allison and very little torque management. MUCH better package!

My '02 K2500HD 6.0 NV4500 gets 8.5-9mpg towing a 9k travel trailer (leaving it in 4th even on the flats) and 9-10mpg towing a 9k trailer with a truck and other scrap on a trailer. My manual trans Cummins would get 13-13.5mpg towing a Jeep on a flat-bed trailer. Even loaded, there ended up being very little difference in cost/mile for me, diesel to gas. The 6.0 doesn't have problems with normal hills in 4th, and doesn't have problems on any hills at long as you are fine with spinning the engine like a gen 3 or gen 4 Chevy engine is meant to spin to make power.

Mike
 

Busterbrown

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
253
Thanks for the input so far....

Playsinsnow said:
How many miles a year will you tow? ...If you can safely tow it, comfort is inside the truck. Yukon would be nice driving west.
As a tow vehicle, I'd expect about 5,000 miles. The future trips out west are going to be countless with our young boys. Even with endless home renovation projects, the truck would be very versatile. My wife is pushing for a Suburban/Tahoe/Yukon but doesn't understand the dynamics behind tow requirements on the trailer she wants.

Bartonmd said:
You say "light and medium duty," but I only see light duty trucks up there. ...Now, in light duty trucks (1-ton or less), to tow 9k, I'd go gas. The newer diesels are so expensive to fix, and not as reliable as the older diesels, that I'd stay away from a diesel if you don't tow more than 10k# more than 50% of the miles that the truck does. The gas engines, especially with the 6-speed automatics, really, REALLY tow very well! The Max package of 1/2 ton Silverado is rated to tow 10k, and my sister had one which she liked, but it's still a 1/2 ton and you can feel it in the frame and suspension.
Me, personally, I'd go with a 6.0 or 6.2L Chevy 2500HD with the 6-speed automatic (I think that's 2009+) or the Ford F250 SD with the 6.2 V8 gasser. If you're going 4WD, the Chevy will ride much better.
I meant to say light duty (very light heavy duty) class 2a, vehicles around 6000lbs under 1 ton. As far as some of the fuel economies with your gasser, it's the main reason I have been leaning toward a duramax diesel. Even with the additional cost per gallan of diesel, members on many of some truck forums I've been perusing are clearing acheiving 20+mpg both empty and pulling 10K. Heck, I recently spoke with someone who delivers new 15K# 5th wheel trailers across the country for dealers with his Ford 350 dually achieving around 20 mpg's.
What I hear about the gassers in the 1/2 ton variety are that they are frequently searching for low gears under load. RPM's are always dynamic on any change in grade. Probably the main reason for horrific MPGs.

glfredrick said:
I'll never look back to gas rigs for towing heavy. But, I also realize there are trade-offs when moving to diesel. Fuel costs more (thanks to new regulations put in place by Clinton to mandate sulfur removal) parts cost more, oil changes and filters cost more, and the heavy E-range tires cost more, but if you want real towing capacity then that is the price you pay, and it is REAL towing capacity.
Yes, the more I learn about diesel rigs, the more I realize that maintenance is a premium compared to gassers. I've been leaning toward the LBZ Duramax between 2006-2007. The used market on any low mileage LBZ is insane. Private and dealers alike are asking north of $30,000. Comparatively speaking, the same RAM and Ford 3/4 ton's are pricing out 5-8,000 lower.

AV8ER said:
For an idea of fuel mileage with a big gas, my fathers 2003 Avalanche 2500 with the 8.1L and 3.73gears gets about 8mpg with 10k lbs behind it. My mothers 01 excursion with the 6.8 v10 gas got about 9mpg with the same trailer. Both tow 10k without much struggle mountains and all just no remarkable fuel mileage.
8 MPGs?? These big liter gassers are more than just thirsty! Full on wide-open gasoline bolus. I read somewhere recently that the 2003 diesel Excursions are worth their weight in fuel. Problem is they are all high mileage by now...if you can even find them. The Suburban 2500 gassers are hard to find too.
 

Bartonmd

Member
Nov 20, 2011
545
Busterbrown said:
Thanks for the input so far....


As a tow vehicle, I'd expect about 5,000 miles. The future trips out west are going to be countless with our young boys. Even with endless home renovation projects, the truck would be very versatile. My wife is pushing for a Suburban/Tahoe/Yukon but doesn't understand the dynamics behind tow requirements on the trailer she wants.


I meant to say light duty (very light heavy duty) class 2a, vehicles around 6000lbs under 1 ton. As far as some of the fuel economies with your gasser, it's the main reason I have been leaning toward a duramax diesel. Even with the additional cost per gallan of diesel, members on many of some truck forums I've been perusing are clearing acheiving 20+mpg both empty and pulling 10K. Heck, I recently spoke with someone who delivers new 15K# 5th wheel trailers across the country for dealers with his Ford 350 dually achieving around 20 mpg's.
What I hear about the gassers in the 1/2 ton variety are that they are frequently searching for low gears under load. RPM's are always dynamic on any change in grade. Probably the main reason for horrific MPGs.


Yes, the more I learn about diesel rigs, the more I realize that maintenance is a premium compared to gassers. I've been leaning toward the LBZ Duramax between 2006-2007. The used market on any low mileage LBZ is insane. Private and dealers alike are asking north of $30,000. Comparatively speaking, the same RAM and Ford 3/4 ton's are pricing out 5-8,000 lower.


8 MPGs?? These big liter gassers are more than just thirsty! Full on wide-open gasoline bolus. I read somewhere recently that the 2003 diesel Excursions are worth their weight in fuel. Problem is they are all high mileage by now...if you can even find them. The Suburban 2500 gassers are hard to find too.

Oh boy...

E10 gasoline has 112BTU/gallon and diesel has 129BTU/gallon. At WOT (still closed loop on most stock trucks, these days, even my '02) on the gas and a diesel running the same engine load, the diesel will only get roughly 13% better fuel mileage. Most of the inefficiencies of a gasoline engine are because the throttle is choking it off. When the throttle is wide open, the VE of a diesel and a gas engine get to be pretty much the same, as the only reason diesels get much better mileage than gas engines while running empty is because they don't have a throttle choking them off and killing VE. The thing is, any more, you're not at WOT all the time when towing with these newer gas engines, so there's a little more difference. However, if you tow a load that's at the edge of the gas engine's capability (well over 10k), the mileage of the gas and diesel get pretty close.

The other thing that maybe you haven't picked up yet (except without the "maybe" if you believe 20mpg towing 10k) is that there are (3) main types of people with diesels who have really high fuel mileage.

1.) The guy who has no idea and is spouting something impressive (many reasons for this, but commonly, it's to justify to himself, his wife, and others the reason he spend an extra $15k on the engine that will never pay for itself)
2.) The guy who reset his mileage computer while going 50mph drafting a semi in Kansas, and calls that his gas mileage while towing
3.) The guy who doesn't know that when you mess with the pump (on older mechanical pumps. The common rail diesels have a better idea unless the programmer you have lies to the computer, instead of changing the calibration) or change injectors, the computer doesn't know it's dumping a lot more fuel than it's commanding, so the fuel mileage readout on the dash is WAY HIGH! How much WAY HIGH it is depends on how large the injectors are, or how much you've mechanically turned up the pump.

The thing that kills diesel fuel mileage is VE losses. Anything that stops up incoming or outgoing airflow. GLFredrick's Cummins is one of the last years without a catalytic converter stopping up the exhaust, and if I'm to believe his mileage claims, he would have to be towing at 65mph or less, and know the tricks to getting good mileage while towing (following/drafting semis, not speeding, going fast down one hill to have momentum carry you up the next hill, etc.), that that 16-18mpg would have to be NOT in the mountains. The early to mid 90's Cummins trucks get the best mileage towing of any of the diesels out there. Anybody who says they do more than that is either one of the 3 numbers above, or has something different going on (like a 10k# trailer that is carrying calibrated steel test weights and has zero aerodynamic drag, and they live in Kansas), or they've completely removed all of the emissions stuff (including the cat) from a newer one. That's OK if you don't have emissions checks, but a no-go if you do. Remember that if it was possible to get this mileage out of the factory with all of the emission stuff intact, the factory would have done it. These guys would give their mother's grave plot for .1mpg added to their CAFE, so if there's anything they can do to still meet drivability and emissions, it will likely be done.

Also, the reason that the 8.1 gets such bad mileage in the AV and 'burb is like I explained before. They are so heavily torque managed in those vehicles, in front of the 4L85E, that to save the transmission, it makes the engine spin faster than it needs to. In the trucks with the 8.1/Allison combo, these get the same or better mileage while towing than the 6.0L in the same truck, because yes, the 6.0 does have to spin to make real power.

As an aside, anything under 1-ton is a "light duty" truck, regardless of what the nameplate on the side of it says. Medium duty trucks are from F450/Kodiak to straight trucks. Heavy duty are semis and dump trucks.

Mike
 

glfredrick

Member
Jan 14, 2014
172
Bartonmd said:
Oh boy...

E10 gasoline has 112BTU/gallon and diesel has 129BTU/gallon. At WOT (still closed loop on most stock trucks, these days, even my '02) on the gas and a diesel running the same engine load, the diesel will only get roughly 13% better fuel mileage. Most of the inefficiencies of a gasoline engine are because the throttle is choking it off. When the throttle is wide open, the VE of a diesel and a gas engine get to be pretty much the same, as the only reason diesels get much better mileage than gas engines while running empty is because they don't have a throttle choking them off and killing VE. The thing is, any more, you're not at WOT all the time when towing with these newer gas engines, so there's a little more difference. However, if you tow a load that's at the edge of the gas engine's capability (well over 10k), the mileage of the gas and diesel get pretty close.

You seemed to neglect to mention the VE that a diesel picks up from a) the uber-high compression ratio and b) the forced air induction via turbo charger. That sort of negates your number examples...

Bartonmd said:
The other thing that maybe you haven't picked up yet (except without the "maybe" if you believe 20mpg towing 10k) is that there are (3) main types of people with diesels who have really high fuel mileage.

1.) The guy who has no idea and is spouting something impressive (many reasons for this, but commonly, it's to justify to himself, his wife, and others the reason he spend an extra $15k on the engine that will never pay for itself)
2.) The guy who reset his mileage computer while going 50mph drafting a semi in Kansas, and calls that his gas mileage while towing
3.) The guy who doesn't know that when you mess with the pump (on older mechanical pumps. The common rail diesels have a better idea unless the programmer you have lies to the computer, instead of changing the calibration) or change injectors, the computer doesn't know it's dumping a lot more fuel than it's commanding, so the fuel mileage readout on the dash is WAY HIGH! How much WAY HIGH it is depends on how large the injectors are, or how much you've mechanically turned up the pump.

Or, we COULD be measuring the miles we run versus the gallons of fuel we add, then using a calculator, figuring out miles per gallon. :thumbsup: My truck doesn't even HAVE a dashboard mileage calculator... I do it old school. And, yes, I was able to skip every other or even ever THIRD fuel stop that those with either gassers or superduty Fords had to make as we towed side-by-side. I am getting that sort of mileage, but my engine is also modded.

Bartonmd said:
The thing that kills diesel fuel mileage is VE losses. Anything that stops up incoming or outgoing airflow. GLFredrick's Cummins is one of the last years without a catalytic converter stopping up the exhaust, and if I'm to believe his mileage claims, he would have to be towing at 65mph or less, and know the tricks to getting good mileage while towing (following/drafting semis, not speeding, going fast down one hill to have momentum carry you up the next hill, etc.), that that 16-18mpg would have to be NOT in the mountains. The early to mid 90's Cummins trucks get the best mileage towing of any of the diesels out there. Anybody who says they do more than that is either one of the 3 numbers above, or has something different going on (like a 10k# trailer that is carrying calibrated steel test weights and has zero aerodynamic drag, and they live in Kansas), or they've completely removed all of the emissions stuff (including the cat) from a newer one. That's OK if you don't have emissions checks, but a no-go if you do. Remember that if it was possible to get this mileage out of the factory with all of the emission stuff intact, the factory would have done it. These guys would give their mother's grave plot for .1mpg added to their CAFE, so if there's anything they can do to still meet drivability and emissions, it will likely be done.

I run a straight through 4" exhaust, an air filter from a big rig, have a boosted pump, pulling cold air and sending it through a heat exchanger, different injectors, different DV, adjusted AFC with modified fuel plate that de-fuels at cruise speed (yes, it is possible to adjust diesel injection pumps to those sort of levels), added rpm from governor control springs, added boost (running almost 40 psi) from turbo-system mods (to deal with additional fuel added -- fuel first, then add air to match in diesel performance!) and I also have a decent billet lock-up converter with full manual control of lock-up (any gear except 1st and at any rpm level I prefer). I'm not "drafting" etc., as you indicate, I DO take advantage of PROPERLY pulling hills by using momentum (duh, why not?) and I most often tow at speeds of 70 mph. I have, of course, no emissions equipment (none specified on my truck, nor do I have to test it -- it is exempt), and yes, I have power to spare... I'm running in the range of a big-rig for torque and hp with gearing to take advantage of that grunt.

I said above that I'm runnig 3.54 gears with 265X70X16 tires. Just imagine a gasser running that set of gears with that set of tires. It would never get out of 2nd gear!

My truck will stick with a new Mustang off the line (love to do it to those guys...) and it tows almost efortlessly, and I still have another 100 or so hp and double that worth of torque to extract from the beasty before I'm finished. I've found that as I increase performance, I've GAINED miles per gallon. The factory (Dodge) SO radically de-tuned the Cummins in this model that it had no real hope of ever performing the way Cummins designed it to perform. Same 12-valve engine is rated at 375 hp in stock configuration in other applications. All I'm doing is getting back to that stage and building a transmission that will take that level power (the main reason Dodge de-tuned!). After 375 or so hp, I actually THEN start to "hot rod" the truck, but that will take twin turbos, additional pump work, and likely some other mods like o-ringing the head, head studs, a different harmonic balancer, etc. THAT starts to get costly, but to get where I am is rather simple and tons of guys have done it. My mileage numbers are not anything out of the ordinary and one can read of any number of other guys doing likewise on cummins forum or other places these sort of trucks are discussed.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Unimog or bust:wootwoot:
 

Bartonmd

Member
Nov 20, 2011
545
glfredrick said:
You seemed to neglect to mention the VE that a diesel picks up from a) the uber-high compression ratio and b) the forced air induction via turbo charger. That sort of negates your number examples...

The difference in VE between gas and diesel compression ratios isn't a straight comparison because of the different cycles and burn temperatures of the mixtures. It's less than a couple percent, from what I gather.

Turbocharging only increases VE a max of a couple percent up to ~15psi, then it drops off at higher boost pressures. Yes, higher pressures put more air into the chamber and allow you to add more fuel to make more power, but you lose efficiency.

The biggest difference other than the throttle killing the airflow and therefore, VE, on the gas engine is the difference in BTU/gallon between diesel and gas.



Or, we COULD be measuring the miles we run versus the gallons of fuel we add, then using a calculator, figuring out miles per gallon. :thumbsup: My truck doesn't even HAVE a dashboard mileage calculator... I do it old school. And, yes, I was able to skip every other or even ever THIRD fuel stop that those with either gassers or superduty Fords had to make as we towed side-by-side. I am getting that sort of mileage, but my engine is also modded.

You're not who I'm really talking about, as I know yours doesn't have a mileage readout in the dash. The vast majority of people who quote those kind of mileage numbers are full of shit. There's a reason the joke on PBB is that diesel trucks use some fuel when they're empty, but they not only don't use any fuel when they're towing, but they make extra fuel that they sell back to the gas stations along the way. The vast majority of new diesel (stock) owners get the mileage you get towing, when they're empty, and get 11-13mpg towing a Jeep on a trailer.

Fuel stops mean nothing. CTD long bed has, what, a 36 gallon tank? Even with an extended cab, any short bed Chevy has a 26 gallon tank. I have no idea about the Fords' tank size.



I run a straight through 4" exhaust, an air filter from a big rig, have a boosted pump, pulling cold air and sending it through a heat exchanger, different injectors, different DV, adjusted AFC with modified fuel plate that de-fuels at cruise speed (yes, it is possible to adjust diesel injection pumps to those sort of levels), added rpm from governor control springs, added boost (running almost 40 psi) from turbo-system mods (to deal with additional fuel added -- fuel first, then add air to match in diesel performance!) and I also have a decent billet lock-up converter with full manual control of lock-up (any gear except 1st and at any rpm level I prefer). I'm not "drafting" etc., as you indicate, I DO take advantage of PROPERLY pulling hills by using momentum (duh, why not?) and I most often tow at speeds of 70 mph. I have, of course, no emissions equipment (none specified on my truck, nor do I have to test it -- it is exempt), and yes, I have power to spare... I'm running in the range of a big-rig for torque and hp with gearing to take advantage of that grunt.

I said above that I'm runnig 3.54 gears with 265X70X16 tires. Just imagine a gasser running that set of gears with that set of tires. It would never get out of 2nd gear!

My truck will stick with a new Mustang off the line (love to do it to those guys...) and it tows almost efortlessly, and I still have another 100 or so hp and double that worth of torque to extract from the beasty before I'm finished. I've found that as I increase performance, I've GAINED miles per gallon. The factory (Dodge) SO radically de-tuned the Cummins in this model that it had no real hope of ever performing the way Cummins designed it to perform. Same 12-valve engine is rated at 375 hp in stock configuration in other applications. All I'm doing is getting back to that stage and building a transmission that will take that level power (the main reason Dodge de-tuned!). After 375 or so hp, I actually THEN start to "hot rod" the truck, but that will take twin turbos, additional pump work, and likely some other mods like o-ringing the head, head studs, a different harmonic balancer, etc. THAT starts to get costly, but to get where I am is rather simple and tons of guys have done it. My mileage numbers are not anything out of the ordinary and one can read of any number of other guys doing likewise on cummins forum or other places these sort of trucks are discussed.

As I said above, your numbers are at least in the realm of reality (I'd even believe 70mph when pulling a car on a trailer, rather than a camper or something. Much, much less aero drag), and your truck is about the most efficient diesel truck made, to date. What I do not believe are the people with stock emissions equipment saying that their diesel gets 20mpg towing a 35' 5th wheel camper at 75mph (or rather, anybody saying that pulling something with that kind of aero drag gets that mileage at 70-75mph).

Yes, I'm well aware of all the diesel mods, as I used to have a CTD, and have been on the diesel forums for several years.

And yes, I've towed 7500-8k with a 1/2 ton Chevy with a Vortec 350 in it, with 3.42:1 final drive and 265/75-16 tires (stock size). Other than not liking overdrive on any kind of grade, it was fine. Only dropped to 2nd for the bigger hills, like going across Arkansas and western MO. Got around 11-13mpg at 65mph, depending on the terrain.

The thing that does kill the mileage of the older (pre-'09) Chevys and such is the 4.10:1 final drive that anything "HD" came with as standard. This was to make up for the long first gear in the 4L80E, but made everything spin. The later ones with the 6-speed auto are much better, fuel-mileage-wise, because they normally have a 3.73:1 final drive, and don't spin as much on hills, because there are more intermediate gears (rather than just "2000rpm isn't cutting it, so I'll downshift and run 5000rpm" like on the 4L80E).

Mike
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Pretty sweet little dodge tow pig


These work for the govt





Nothing tows better than this guy
 

Blade

Member
Nov 20, 2011
257
Speaking of towing, my regular wheelbase GMT900 with the 6.2 L is a bit of a letdown. Not sure what it is but I don't like the way I feel like I am getting tugged around by my 7500 lb travel trailer.

I think as soon as you get over 6000 lbs you need a heavier truck with a larger footprint on the road to make towing feel better. The 8-9 mpg is livable for short trips and the power is acceptable however the GMT900 regular wheelbase is not a good choice for towing upwards of 7000 lbs for long distances. I just had to throw that out there as this is what I am living with right now.
 

Bartonmd

Member
Nov 20, 2011
545
Blade said:
Speaking of towing, my regular wheelbase GMT900 with the 6.2 L is a bit of a letdown. Not sure what it is but I don't like the way I feel like I am getting tugged around by my 7500 lb travel trailer.

I think as soon as you get over 6000 lbs you need a heavier truck with a larger footprint on the road to make towing feel better. The 8-9 mpg is livable for short trips and the power is acceptable however the GMT900 regular wheelbase is not a good choice for towing upwards of 7000 lbs for long distances. I just had to throw that out there as this is what I am living with right now.

Length is a big deal with towing stability. My 5.3L TB tows a 6500# 2-axle car hauler just fine, but you have to be careful how you load it. It's much more sensitive to being setup exactly right than my old Cummins was, and certainly my '02 ECLB K2500HD is.

Having said that, do you have enough tongue weight, have the 10,000# WD hitch set up with enough preload for enough WD (Make sure the bars are 10k bars with a 7500# trailer, because the RV place will try and include a 5k setup, which typically isn't enough WD for anything over 5k), and have an anti-sway setup?

Mike
 

Blade

Member
Nov 20, 2011
257
Thanks Mike. I will look at it a lot closer now. It LOOKS really heavy duty but I will spec it out.
 

Bartonmd

Member
Nov 20, 2011
545
Blade said:
Thanks Mike. I will look at it a lot closer now. It LOOKS really heavy duty but I will spec it out.

It's cool. It should say on your bars, what they're rated for. On a some of them, the hitch is the same either way, and the bars are what change.

Even then, it could be that the hitch isn't set up right. With my sister's ~5000# GVW travel trailer, she's got a 5k WD setup, and in order to get enough front end weight on the tow rig, I have to hook up the WD bars before I drop the tongue onto the ball. Either that, or I get onto whatever link I can on one side, then go to the proper link on the second side, then bring the first side up to where it should be. Just those 2 extra links in the chains make a world of difference in how it handles bumps, cross winds, semis, etc.!

Mike
 

Busterbrown

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
253
Blade said:
Speaking of towing, my regular wheelbase GMT900 with the 6.2 L is a bit of a letdown. Not sure what it is but I don't like the way I feel like I am getting tugged around by my 7500 lb travel trailer.

I think as soon as you get over 6000 lbs you need a heavier truck with a larger footprint on the road to make towing feel better. The 8-9 mpg is livable for short trips and the power is acceptable however the GMT900 regular wheelbase is not a good choice for towing upwards of 7000 lbs for long distances. I just had to throw that out there as this is what I am living with right now.

I agree. :iagree: Active online user forums are a godsend when researching real-world product performance. The boys over at duramaxforum.com have inspired me to look at a diesel rig, preferably years prior to all the emissions control mandates. It's almost a universal truth that any tow vehicle subject to long distant and heavy pulling demands should be of the 3/4 ton diesel variety. Resale on a low mileage truck is better than I could have ever imagined. Now, I just have to find me a "LBZ" duramax from one of the southern states. This may take awhile.
 

Bartonmd

Member
Nov 20, 2011
545
Busterbrown said:
I agree. :iagree: Active online user forums are a godsend when researching real-world product performance. The boys over at duramaxforum.com have inspired me to look at a diesel rig, preferably years prior to all the emissions control mandates. It's almost a universal truth that any tow vehicle subject to long distant and heavy pulling demands should be of the 3/4 ton diesel variety. Resale on a low mileage truck is better than I could have ever imagined. Now, I just have to find me a "LBZ" duramax from one of the southern states. This may take awhile.

If by "heavy" you mean 13-14,000# trailer, then yes. The 6.0 doesn't like towing more than about 13k# in the mountains, and can't keep speed going up the passes with more than that. The 8.1/Allison, on the other hand, is comparable to a stock diesel built during the same time. But yes, 3/4 ton or better is the way to go if you're towing more than ~6k with any regularity.

If you want a diesel, by all means, get one! Just don't fall into the thinking that you NEED one to tow a 9k travel trailer a few thousand miles a year.

Mike
 

Busterbrown

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
253
Bartonmd said:
If by "heavy" you mean 13-14,000# trailer, then yes. The 6.0 doesn't like towing more than about 13k# in the mountains, and can't keep speed going up the passes with more than that. The 8.1/Allison, on the other hand, is comparable to a stock diesel built during the same time. But yes, 3/4 ton or better is the way to go if you're towing more than ~6k with any regularity.

If you want a diesel, by all means, get one! Just don't fall into the thinking that you NEED one to tow a 9k travel trailer a few thousand miles a year.

Mike

I think we can debate this all day long but I'll NEVER win as I never owned either a 6.0/8.1 gasser or diesel. I've received quite a bit of feedback from members on duramaxforum who have owned both: Which generation Duramax should I purchase? - Chevy and GMC Duramax Diesel Forum. Yes, obviously, asking a diesel owner if he'd ever buy a gasser is like asking a Ford guy if he'd ever buy a Dodge...somewhat skewed responses. But when there are commonalities among all diesel owners, there's probably some truth to owning a diesel for my purpose of towing a travel trailer. Using it as mall cruiser, not so much! Even if it turns out to be more truck than I need, resales values hold up. No worries, right?! :biggrin:
 

Bartonmd

Member
Nov 20, 2011
545
Busterbrown said:
I think we can debate this all day long but I'll NEVER win as I never owned either a 6.0/8.1 gasser or diesel. I've received quite a bit of feedback from members on duramaxforum who have owned both: Which generation Duramax should I purchase? - Chevy and GMC Duramax Diesel Forum. Yes, obviously, asking a diesel owner if he'd ever buy a gasser is like asking a Ford guy if he'd ever buy a Dodge...somewhat skewed responses. But when there are commonalities among all diesel owners, there's probably some truth to owning a diesel for my purpose of towing a travel trailer. Using it as mall cruiser, not so much! Even if it turns out to be more truck than I need, resales values hold up. No worries, right?! :biggrin:

I had a diesel and bought a gas, so there are some of us. My use is very similar to yours, I think. Use it like a truck whenever I use it, tow car trailers, a couple trips with the travel trailer per year, etc.. You just have to drive a TON of miles for a diesel to pay for itself, especially due to the higher fuel prices, the additives, the higher maintenance costs, and the MUCH higher repair costs. Any more, from a money standpoint, the only way for a newer diesel to pay for itself is if you drive it (mostly towing) 30k/year, and that's just barely. The only other reason to drive a diesel if you don't tow even that much is if what you tow is over the ~13k# mark, for the 6.0L. For the 8.1, the mark for it is about what it is for the diesels, so it's kind of moot. Then there's the price of entry... I was able to sell my '90 CTD for $8k and buy my '02 K2500HD 6.0 NV4500 for $6500. There are so many diesel ricers out there that it drives the used prices SO HIGH on them, it's ridiculous. For a Duramax in the same body style with the same ~130k miles as my truck in good shape, I was looking in the $12-$18k range :crazy: ... da 'fug?

This whole conversation, and the conversations on most of the diesel sites, completely steer clear of the fact that for a long time, THE tow rig to have was a Chevy 1-ton with a 175HP 350 or a 200HP 454 (if you only wanted 2WD). It's really a pretty recent thing that "enough engine" means you can tow your load up Eisenhower Pass at 80mph without dropping lockup in OD.

All I'm saying with any of this is that for your use, a diesel will cost you more money and you don't NEED the power. If you WANT it, and are willing to pay extra to buy and drive it, by all means, do it. Just don't let people convince you that you NEED it. It will be more truck than you need, which is really never a bad thing, unless you consider cost to own/operate it.

Mike

ETA: and reading through that whole thread, I didn't see anybody who said anything unrealistic about their fuel mileage, like you mentioned before (20mpg towing). Most said numbers I've believe... 10mph to 14mpg, towing similar trailers to what you'll be towing.
 

Playsinsnow

Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
Bartonmd said:
All I'm saying with any of this is that for your use, a diesel will cost you more money andyou don't NEED the power. If you WANT it, and are willing to pay extra to buy and drive it, by all means, do it. Just don't let people convince you that you NEED it. It will be more truck than you need, which is really never a bad thing, unless you consider cost to own/operate it.

Mike

:iagree:

I know a few guys who had diesels and towed frequently. One was a daily driver with a lawn care etc company. All admitted to it being overkill and would smirk at the power available. Only one guy has a diesel still, lawn/snow guy,

The general vibe I got from all of them individually was that their diesel truck was more than capable to do whatever they needed it to do. Whether you want to pay more for comfortable overkill, or less for a truck that gets the job done is up to you. Passing power is overrated. Last two trips out west I have seen a flipped trailer and truck/suv on >4 lane highways. Slow down and enjoy the drive!
 

glfredrick

Member
Jan 14, 2014
172
Busterbrown said:
Yes, obviously, asking a diesel owner if he'd ever buy a gasser is like asking a Ford guy if he'd ever buy a Dodge...somewhat skewed responses. But when there are commonalities among all diesel owners, there's probably some truth to owning a diesel for my purpose of towing a travel trailer. Using it as mall cruiser, not so much! Even if it turns out to be more truck than I need, resales values hold up. No worries, right?! :biggrin:

My son just switched from Ford to Dodge. Some things he liked about the Ford, especially the fit and finish and electrical system. Some things he likes about the Dodge, especially that he could rip the @ss out of his Ford and never look back while almost doubling the miles per gallon. He had a 97 7.3 powerstroke 2wd crew cab and moved up to an 05 mega-cab 24V common rail 5.9. It is taking him some time to get used to the low rpm grunt of the Cummins over the powerstroke, which drove much more like a gasser.

I like the phone calls I get every day as he comes home from work... "Dad, I just have to tell you about this truck... Got it completely sideways coming up the on-ramp to the freeway..." :biggrin: Of course, he has done some work to the Dodge. Smarty, 4" exhaust, transmission mods, air filter, etc.

Cost more? Yup. Over kill? Depends on the person. We tow in the mountains all the time, sometimes as far away as Utah. No substitute for pure torque over the long haul, but yes, a gasser WILL do the job. He moved up from a 350 CU 4x4 2500 Suburban to the Ford Powerstroke to the Dodge and got more at each step of the way. He commonly tows a gooseneck with 2 rigs, but also has single-rig traiers.

Ford is for sale if anyone is interested. Very clean (though high miles) for the year.

304173_10150815072575394_936528828_n.jpg
 

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