Feds Go After Makers of Emissions "Defeat" Devices

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
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Checking through Google News, seems that the EPA are mostly targeting diesels but how long until they go after gas devices? I can see them going after the Range devices and then, HP tuners. Although not a "device", it is capable of defeating pollution controls via tunes so the adapter to do that tune can be considered a device.

I don't know if it's really that widespread as they say those that do disable them. The implementation of DPF was a clusterfork. The technology isn't there yet with expensive failures galore, which pushed people to delte them.
 
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Reprise

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I have a feeling that TPTB (both fed & state) will stay focused on diesel, because of how much particulate is emitted when they're converted to 'rolling coal', even using ULSD fuel. I'll also opine that the sales volume of light-duty trucks in general contribute to them having a watchful eye, as well.

The online companies that weren't nailed by EPA closed up their storefronts once the 'Diesel Brothers' case went public (I just today read that the 'brothers' (they're not) now have to pay about $900K in court costs, on top of what they were already fined for the conversions they did. ) Anyone still doing this is waaay on the down low, now.

As for the newer trucks, I haven't yet read of anyone cracking the new ECUs that GM updated to a couple of years ago. They're encrypted, IIRC. So until someone cracks them, any truck newer than, say, 2017 or so is stuck buying DEF and keeping emissions pretty much OEM-issued. Then you have companies like FCA / Ram (maybe others?) disabling the truck outright if it can't run its DEF routines (either because of no fluid, or a catalyst issue, etc.) I don't know about you, but if I paid today's prices for a new diesel truck, and saw the dashboard warning me that the truck was going to stop running in 50-100 miles... I'd be PLENTY p!ssed off. I think that's an EPA-mandated thing, so it's probably not just Ram.

If the OEM encryption holds, BTW, I think that's what'll put companies like HP Tuners, et al, out of business (along with the changeover to BEVs)


Back to the gassers... Autos & light-duty trucks burn *so* clean now, that you see localities starting to de-emphasize testing (you have experience with this). That tells me, at least, that they 'catch' so few violations, relative to the costs of mandated testing (facilities, equipment, staff, IT resources, etc.), and / or the violations aren't 'gross', like when they started testing back in the '70s / '80s, that it's not worth the expense. Wishing my state would adopt this philosophy (although the one vehicle they granted me an automatic exemption on, based on GVWR... is the 6.0L pickup. And it's registered as a 'B' (class 2) truck, same as the 1500 / half-tons. Go figure) As it is, my state (and many others) will grant waivers, once you prove you've spent more than x dollars / y attempts to bring the vehicle in compliance.

Given another 15 years or so, the 'plan' is that there'll be so few ICE vehicles left in the national fleet, that emissions from them are going to be considered miniscule. Another 10 years on top of that, and the only ones you'll see are collector / antiques. Those will never be outlawed, IMO, because the owners tend to be well-heeled, and have pull with their legislatures / lobbyists (at least, here in the US). The worst you'll probably see to keep them 'off the roads' is probably a special licensing / permitting scheme, which those owners will agree to / adopt, in order to both concentrate ownership in fewer hands, and to (indirectly) keep pricing down for acquisition of additional vehicles.

There are two outliers WRT geographic locations, IMHO.
One is California, as long as they're still allowed to set their own standards -- and there are a few other states that basically set their own to (most of) whatever California does. The last administration moved to eliminate Cali's right to 'roll their own', but the current one is more aligned with them, of course.

The other... is Canada. Because I'm not a resident of that fine-@ss country 🇨🇦, I have *no* idea what the future holds. On the one hand, Ottawa and (most of) the provinces do have a heavy regulatory hand on some issues. On others, like KXL... well, things are... different. And we'll leave it at that. :biggrin:

The issue with Canada is, of course, that they have 10% of the US' population (and roughly 10% of the automobiles). So they're not in a position to set N. American emission standards, etc., by themselves. And Mexico figures into this less than Canada does, but more for economic reasons, vs. population.

Given where the growth in automotive sales is (China), the manufacturers probably have that country's standards as their primary concern, not N. America's. Not to be jingoistic, but N. America has done one helluva job reducing auto emissions since the late 1960s. Here's the latest data I could find re: "biggest pollution sources" (from Wikipedia):

1615335589828.png

(No, this chart doesn't show 'percentage of reduction' since 1990 (or 1960, or... ) But IIRC, the N. American fleet is > 90% cleaner than it was back when we were kids. I'll guess that the 'Transportation' piece of that pie used to be a LOT bigger than it is, now.

As for the other segments... Coal is quickly losing favor for electricity generation (due to pricing... and coal is pretty cheap to begin with). The upcoming infrastructure bill headed for the US Congress in the next few weeks is sure to contain some updates for the US / N. American grid (which is sorely needing updating, and was only 50% efficient under optimal circumstances). Industry... well, we know there's not much of an actual manufacturing base left in the US, so that's going to be lessened, as well.

Ok. I'm taking a break from writing, now. :laugh::compu-punch:
 
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Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
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Here, the provinces regulate enforcement. Some do testing and compliance, most do not. Ontario just abolished testing a couple of years ago. The majority of people, as soon as they see the money light is on, run to get it fixed, which is probably what drove the current government to abolish it.

Given enough time, they'll hack into it. Otherwise enthusiasts will just stick with the "old" stuff.

But as you mentioned, as electrics become mainstream, the dinosaurs will be a small portion and by then, regulators won't care about them anymore. However, to make electrics "carbon neutral", you guys have to cut down on burning stuff to make the electricity or you're just trading one pollutant for another.
 

littleblazer

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Jul 6, 2014
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The rolling coal thing is mighty stupid. That being said a well tuned diesel without DEF is still pretty damned clean. It's been so long now but I had a friend who was working on a project with exxon-mobil I believe... basically it was a catalyst system that resulted in the little black smoke that was emitted was just straight up elemental carbon and you could actually use it for other things... it was quickly scrapped though because it was too complicated and required a catch bin to be emptied... things people don't want to do basically.

Ironically enough though... my 84 with its big cam and no cats actually still passes emissions that it was factory certified on. How I don't know but... it did... I only did it to test how good the tune was and it doesn't smell like it should but does... but me driving that 2000 miles a year vs buying a new one... it'll take a long time for that car to be worse than the footprint of buying the new one and using it.

Once we have EVs that are capable of 300+ miles on 15 minutes of charging or so I'm in but otherwise I can't do it yet. I mean really for a work commuter I could but not as a work vehicle where I was doing 250-300 miles a day with some towing. As range improves weight doesn't track linear... so for 2x the weight you may only get 1.5x the range... and there are things coming... its just a matter of time. I'm probably in the generation that'll really have to figure this all out but they're all super unrealistic about renewable energy... I know what it'll take to do it but it's a lot. And for whatever reason my friends don't seem to get that lol.
 

Reprise

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However, to make electrics "carbon neutral", you guys have to cut down on burning stuff to make the electricity or you're just trading one pollutant for another.
"You guys"? What, like Canada is on 100% renewables? LOL - when did this happen? :hail:


Once we have EVs that are capable of 300+ miles on 15 minutes of charging or so I'm in but otherwise I can't do it yet.
There are two fast refueling scenarios gaining traction that I've heard about...

- Swapping out packs, at designated refueling stations (100+ years later, the 'filling station attendant comes back into vogue?) 5-10min, and you're back on the road again. Of course, every mfg would pretty much have to standardize pack types / sizes -- you might have a small pack for an econobox, a medium pack for, say, a midsize SUV, and so on, up through 1-ton pickups. Larger than that would be handled by other operators, or fleet maintenance companies. Your 'old' pack gets reconditioned / recharged, and put back into the 'pool', for another driver to use. So you really don't 'own' your battery, in that case.

- Fast charging, where you'd get perhaps 40% charge -- in 5 minutes. This requires different battery chemistry (people are at work on it, and making good headway, right now). Your pack stays in the car; this is probably the closest thing to current gasoline fueling infrastructure. While 40% is less than "1/2 tank", it would be more than enough to get you to the next charging station a town (or a few towns) away.

Of those two, do you have one you'd prefer, given similar refueling times for each?
One requires a lot of spare battery capacity, the other a lot of (clean) instantaneous electrical transmission (maybe fairly high voltage, too; I don't know enough about this one yet, to say for sure.)


I'm probably in the generation that'll really have to figure this all out but they're all super unrealistic about renewable energy... I know what it'll take to do it but it's a lot. And for whatever reason my friends don't seem to get that lol.
Hopefully, it's 'us' that figures it out. If it's PRC, say goodbye to the US automobile market and supporting infrastructures. This is one of the two big struggles for primacy (the other being harnessing of AI; arguably even more important than carbon-neutral energy sources).


Oh, and you're absolutely right about 'expectations vs. reality'. People think it's going to be like flipping a light switch. If only... :helpme: :lightbulb:
 

littleblazer

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Jul 6, 2014
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"You guys"? What, like Canada is on 100% renewables? LOL - when did this happen? :hail:



There are two fast refueling scenarios gaining traction that I've heard about...

- Swapping out packs, at designated refueling stations (100+ years later, the 'filling station attendant comes back into vogue?) 5-10min, and you're back on the road again. Of course, every mfg would pretty much have to standardize pack types / sizes -- you might have a small pack for an econobox, a medium pack for, say, a midsize SUV, and so on, up through 1-ton pickups. Larger than that would be handled by other operators, or fleet maintenance companies. Your 'old' pack gets reconditioned / recharged, and put back into the 'pool', for another driver to use. So you really don't 'own' your battery, in that case.

- Fast charging, where you'd get perhaps 40% charge -- in 5 minutes. This requires different battery chemistry (people are at work on it, and making good headway, right now). Your pack stays in the car; this is probably the closest thing to current gasoline fueling infrastructure. While 40% is less than "1/2 tank", it would be more than enough to get you to the next charging station a town (or a few towns) away.

Of those two, do you have one you'd prefer, given similar refueling times for each?
One requires a lot of spare battery capacity, the other a lot of (clean) instantaneous electrical transmission (maybe fairly high voltage, too; I don't know enough about this one yet, to say for sure.)



Hopefully, it's 'us' that figures it out. If it's PRC, say goodbye to the US automobile market and supporting infrastructures. This is one of the two big struggles for primacy (the other being harnessing of AI; arguably even more important than carbon-neutral energy sources).


Oh, and you're absolutely right about 'expectations vs. reality'. People think it's going to be like flipping a light switch. If only... :helpme: :lightbulb:
I know tesla piloted the "pack swap" a few years ago... my cousin had some experience with it. They built them into little restaurants as it took like a half hour or so iirc... very limited but he said it was kind of cool.

I think environmentally the chemistry is better as the toll of harvesting that many battery's and building the network and maintaining it is probably not sustainable... you're talking depleting it almost twice as fast but lasting longer so... idk.

And yeah. It isnt just a light switch. They're like "just use panels and convert everything to ev." And my response was "well, that's all fine and well on an efficient home but add in a few cars charging every night and I doubt you're lighting it up with just solar... maybe on an efficient home but not anything that the average person lives in sadly." And that dumbfounded them lol. My neighbor has panels on his house and a couple in the yard too and he only gets a small credit back because he still burns a lot. And that's an average house that was built in the last 50 years or so... so it is what it is... you need a plan and a massive undertaking because it takes more than the average person realizes lol.
 

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Found another one -- also diesel. I wouldn't want to be one of these companies, right now...

Linky

Gotta love Google, and their ways of 'anticipating my every need, based on user tracking' :rolleyes:
 

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