SOLVED! Cylinder Head and timing chain headaches.

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tucker12

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May 20, 2020
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ohio
Hello everyone, my name is matt. Im currently in the process of taking the cylinder head off my 2004 envoy xl with the 4.2L I6. What happened was I had a p0017 code, very idle and no compression what so ever on cylinder #3. I am going to have the valves replaced by a local machinist because the camera we put into the cylinder showed the valve sticking open.

I am currently trying to remove the head bolts but they keep snapping not matter how much tapping I do with a hammer, heat I apply or the amount of penetration fluid I spray. Any Ideas how to remove them fully without breaking?

Also I am lost on the timing chain. The dot on the sprocket and the black link do not match up no matter what I do. Does this mean I need a new chain and tentioner? As I understand to replace that is one hell of a job.

I have attached pics of the timing chains. IMG_20200520_170604168.jpgIMG_20200520_171248228.jpg

Thank you in advance for any help.
-matt
 

mrrsm

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Welcome to GMT Nation...

Before proceeding with the removal of the Chain & Sprockets... STOP... and Read @Mooseman's Classic "How To Replace the Cam Phaser" Procedures covering the critical steps needed to perform this Engine Head R&R:


Then ...after you have done EVERY Step in his Instructions...

(1) Go ahead with the Head Bolt Removal... and let them Snap Off... After you remove the Engine Head, the Extraction of the Remaining Studs will be fairly easy. Work on removing the Broken Bolts ONLY AFTER you have removed the Engine Head.

(2) Use either Gorilla or Duct Tape to tape off your Old MLS Head Gasket (See the Link below to my "Flickr-Bucket" for images). Then Lay the Gasket back over the upper Engine and this will prevent anything from dropping down inside of the adjacent Coolant and Oiling Holes in the Aluminum Engine Block.

(3) Use a Bolt Extraction Kit with a Reversing Drill and carefully reverse drill into the snapped Bolt Shank...AFTER CAREFULLY CENTER-PUNCHING THE TOP OF THE BOLT.

(4) Take your Time and look over the images linked below to see how this can be done.

These Images will help you to visualize the Work Field after the Engine Head is removed:


Be Patient...and Thoughtful... You CAN do this in a straightforward manner and there are many here who can offer more suggestions as your work proceeds...
 
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mrrsm

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Once you have rotated the Engine (ONLY Clockwise) perhaps as many as 14 Times in order to have the Timing Links aligned just as they are shown in the Red Circles on the attached image, you'll need to take many more actions to prevent the Timing Chain from dropping down inside the narrow space in the Front of the Motor and have it fall loose from the Crankshaft Sprocket:

The Special Consideration at the Heart of This Repair... is the Fact that the Timing Chain Tensioner ...RATCHETS OUTWARD... as it Ages and reacts to the wear on the Timing Chain Guides along with inevitable "Chain Stretch" which prompts the internal Plunger Gear-Rod and Pad to push ever outwards further and further to achieve proper Chain Tightness. As soon as the Timing Chain is relaxed by the removal of either one or both Timing Chain Sprockets... the Timing Chain Plunger WILL fully extend and LOCK OUT in that extended position.

The Small Red Circle over the Tensioner Lock & Release Latch shown in the Diagram below emphasizes how VERY Difficult it will be to access and actuate that tiny Lock-Release Plate Latch. This demands using all manner of Hand-Made Stiff Wire Tools in order to release that Latch and then re-compress the Plunger BACK INSIDE of the Tensioner Body. You almost need 4 Hands to achieve this result, as the Latch MUST be Held in place with the Wire Tool during this R&R . This all takes place while working inside of the VERY narrow Space under the Timing Chain Front Cover at the front of the open top of the Engine.


GMATLAS42LTIMINGCHAIN.jpg

If this 'loose chain dropping event' occurs... you WILL need to remove the Engine Oil Pan and the Front Timing Cover in order to install the New Timing Chain, Timing Chain Guides AND replace the Old, Worn Out and Extended Plunger Timing Chain Tensioner with a New, OEM version that will come with the New Tensioner Plunger fully Compressed inside the Tensioner Body and held in place with a Removable Plastic Pin until the routing and alignments return to what you can see in the attached image.

I'm not going to 'sugar-coat' the obvious problems here... this issue will be very difficult to control and keep tension on the Chain while you are trying to unbolt, elevate and remove the Old Engine Head .... ALL at the same time. The same problem remains for the re-installation of the re-worked Engine Head.

But at this point... your actions of having started to remove some of the Engine Head Bolts have more or less committed you to go forwards and work through this possible agony. Before going ANY further ... This image shows the Timing Chain Links in their proper orientation as follows that MUST be your Starting Point to avoid damaging the Engine Internals via any misalignment of these components prior to disassembly:

(1) The #1 Piston must be positioned at Top Dead Center.

(2) The Colored Timing Links of the Cam Phaser Sprocket and Intake Camshaft Sprocket must align with the Arrows or Dots etched or embedded into the face of both Sprockets.

(3) The word "DELPHI" on the face of the Cam Phaser core must be Level and Even, Horizontally with the upper front edge of the Engine Head.

(4) The Intake and Exhaust Camshaft Notched FLATS must be Level and Even, Horizontally at the back area of the Engine Head and held in place with a Special Tool.

(5) The Dark Colored Link of the Timing Chain must align with the DOT on the front face of the Crankshaft-Gerotor Oil Pump Sprocket.

(6) The Timing Chain Tensioner Plunger and the Timing Chain must be held in place with a Special Aluminum Wedge delivered in between to prevent the Timing Chain from Falling loose from the Crankshaft-Gerotor Oil Pump Sprocket... so the Engine Head can be removed and the Timing Chain to Crankshaft Sprocket relationship does NOT Change.
 
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mrrsm

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This is what the Timing Chain Tensioner Latch Release-Lock Tool looks like that I made from a Heavy Gauge TIg Welding Stainless Steel Rod that was the BEST solution among the other ones I tried out:

43101816784_2b26762742_c.jpg43101816684_2af5f2c18b_c.jpg43101816114_0cbd9068b2_c.jpg43101816034_9ca2331116_c.jpg43101816184_6e2b4fa3ea_c.jpg43101815954_aa58016eb5_c.jpg
 
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Mooseman

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All that to say that personally, I recommend replacing the whole engine rather than attempting to remove the head. The bolts ALWAYS snap and it's ALWAYS the rear ones which are the most difficult to get at. And even IF you do get it all done right, it can still fail if it's not done perfectly right. I remember this particular thread where it took him forever to do it and it still didn't work. He wound up getting rid of it and getting a Cruze.

 
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tucker12

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May 20, 2020
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ohio
Thank you guys all for your imput!!

Since the last post I removed the cooling fan shroud, belt tentioner, water pump and I am currently trying to figure out how to unbolt the rack and pinion from the oil pan.

My dad and I after discovered a huge oil leak on the passenger side of the timing cover. Once the shroud and power steering pump were removed decided to go all the way and drop the pan and remove the front cover to reseal and refresh everything. In hindsight I should have listened to my mom telling me the engine used 2 quarts a month. There was about a inch of crud on the air guard plate underneath the engine. On the bright side I found 3 of my 10mm sockets in the crud.

As of right now the head is unbolted ready to lift out once the biblical amount of rain we have been getting passes and amazon delivers the cam holder tool to install on the back. I also have Irwin Colbalt left hand drill bits and a punch to remove the head-bolts with the help of my machinist friend.

Do you gents have any suggestions on the brands to buy for timing chain, head bolt, and gaskets? Im on rockauto and I am thinking about going with Cloyes for the timing chain, Felpro for the bolts and Mahle for the gaskets (intake and timing cover). Im trying to stay away from the no name brands I don't want to replace any of this after its all said and done.

Also any suggestions on what all has to be removed from the sub frame and such to get the pan out? So far I have removed the air guard and thats it.

-Matt
 
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mrrsm

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NP, Matt... You're attitude is PRECISELY what you will need for what you are about to work on. :>)

If you are clever... you will AVOID Reading EVERYTHING I wrote at the Link Below ...with the exception of the First and Second Pages to obtain the majority of the GM OEM Part Names and Part Numbers for the complete rebuild of the GM 4.2L LL8 Engine... should the Worse come to Worse:


... and to answer your Question about "Which Timing Chain Kit to get...?". Follow along in the deep and capable Mechanic's Footprints of @m.mcmillen and read HIS Thread on this job and Purchase the CLOYES Timing Chain Kit in its entirety.

As for the other related Parts & Part Numbers for Seals, Sealant-Adhesives and TTY Fasteners "In The Flesh" that you will require ...this next Link to my Main "Flickr-Bucket" Page is littered with numerous Albums (towards the very bottom) containing ALL of the needed information and what things should look like at various stages of this work. You will NOT regret it:

 

Mooseman

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This thread has pretty much all the info you need:

How to replace I6 timing chain and tensioner

The R&P is attached to the frame, not the oil pan. The front diff is attached to the pan so it will require disassembling the front end to pull the axles.
 
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mrrsm

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Check Out @Mooseman 's recent Thread on the FUBAR HF Jack Stands to make certain you are not using any of them...

 

tucker12

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May 20, 2020
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ohio
Sorry for the late reply, The storms severely damaged my roof so I'm in the process of fixing my roof along with the car.

Anyway, today I removed the head from the block and got it on the work bench. The valves on #3 are shot. One has a hole in it and the other looks melted? I also discovered that the timing guide shoe on the passenger side was missing some nylon chunks.
Thankfully I ordered the timing set!

Also the cylinder wall on #3 has some markings on it like scratches but I don't feel anything with my finger. I used a air gun to remove all the debris from the surfaces and replaced the gasket with duck tape on it to keep stuff out like MNRSM suggested. I then placed a heavy wrench on top to keep it in place for the time being.

The big issue I am currently having is removing the bolts that hold the rack&pinon in place. Ive been impacting the hell out of the bolts and they refuse to budge even after 4 days of liquid wrench and impacts. I cant remove the oil pan unless I remove the pinion right? Also this is RWD so thankfully I don't have to do the whole driveshafts through the pan thing. Makes me think the fella who designed this did the infamous northstar V8 with the starter in the oilpan.


Also thank you for the heads up on the jack stands. I guess its now a blessing that my harbor freight stands walked off a few years ago. I use the Big Red Torin brand stands and jack.


USER_SCOPED_TEMP_DATA_MSGR_PHOTO_FOR_UPLOAD_1590701613034_6671886138356265915.jpeg
IMG_20200528_175731663.jpg
 
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mrrsm

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Get 2-3 Cans of ACDelco Top Engine Cleaner Foam Spray:


ACDELCOFOAMINGTEC.jpg

Then, liberally douche down the Cylinder Walls and Piston Tops. Then cover the top of the Engine with plenty of Saran Wrap to contain the vapors and the smell. Now that the Engine Head has been removed... once you clean away the residual Motor Oil and Carbon... be certain to liberally spray down all six cylinders with WD-40 or they WILL Rust Up in short order if unprotected. Keep the Engine Block Covered with:

(1) Complete layers of Saran Wrap.
(2) A Section of Cardboard running the length of the Engine Block.
(3) A Black Plastic Garbage Bag to deflect Dirt, Rain and Settling Moisture.

Then after a few hours of a decent soak in this Noxious Stuff... ALL of the Baked On Carbon Deposits will completely dissolve down into a "Black Mung Pool" that can easily be wiped out using low fiber-shedding Scott Blue Shop Towels. After that, the Pistons will appear 'Factory New' and there will be no need for Scraping or the use of any Harsh Abrasives.

EDIT:

I keep Learning New Things all the Time... and the Latest Information for Engine Builders is to use "Large Coffee Filters" as Wipes to use in the Final Clean Out of all Inner Engine Areas such as Cylinders and Piston Tops. These do NOT Shed Fibers and will wipe off any left over:
COFFEEFILTERS.jpg

Zip-Lok Bag up ALL of the Soaked Hand Towels-Coffee Filters
once the cleanup of this Dangerous Solvent is completed. Avoid Breathing this powerful chemical as it will readily make you feel dizzy and sick. The Solvent VOCs like this can be inhaled and enter the Blood Stream via the Lungs and remain capable of dissolving the lipids of your Brain. So Be Very Careful... I'm NOT Kidding!

This Video may offer some Help with the R&R of the Power Steering Rack & Pinion Unit:

 
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Mooseman

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You don't need to completely pull the R&P out. Just let it drop and hang from the tie-rods. That's what I did.
 
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Mike534x

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Zip-Lok Bag up ALL of the Soaked Hand Towels once the cleanup of this dangerous solvent is completed. Avoid Breathing this powerful chemical as it will readily make you feel dizzy and sick. The Solvent VOCs like this can be inhaled and enter the Blood Stream via the Lungs and remain capable of dissolving the lipids of your Brain. So Be Very Careful... I'm NOT Kidding!

Holy crap! I'm glad I saw this. I was not aware this engine cleaner was that toxic, I'm definitely keeping this in mind (and to get myself a filtered mask if they're no longer hard to come by. Is it usually recommended to spray this down into the cylinders (or I guess through the spark plug wells) and let them soak overnight? I've been contemplating getting a can to help free up the piston rings in an effort to help ease my oil consumption.
 
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mrrsm

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I can tell you from personal experience having witnessed a few Autopsies of "Paint Huffers" who died from doing this action of "intentional inhalation" of Solvent Vapors that can carry a Deadly Punch.

You'd have to listen to and observe the Pathologists dictating out loud while pointing out the presence of dissolved tissues inside of the decedents' Coconuts to get an honest understanding that this Brain Damage really can and DOES happen ...so this kind of Stuff is NO Joke.
 
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tucker12

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Just a update for everyone. I took the cylinder head to my machinist friend. He said that the camshafts, lobes, and sprockets look really good for 210k miles. He is redoing all the valves and giving it a good once over for $100. He also is going to clean the head in a hot tank.
I ordered the spray and all the odds and ends I need to rebuild everything. I'm just waiting on the parts.

I'm also still trying to get the R&P out of the way. Those bolts are putting up one hell of a fight. I'm going to get a few friends over to see if we can muscle it off since our impacts have been useless so far.

-matt
 
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Mooseman

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How did it go with the head bolts? Some always break unless you have The Force to help you.

For the R&P, have you tried a breaker bar with a cheater?
 

mrrsm

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As per the OP's images...I was trying to figure out how THIS could even happen in a Non Turbo-Charged Engine...

BURNTVALVE.jpg

...and settled on THIS Engine Builder's Article for the Information:

 

TollKeeper

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I would be really curious to see what the spark plug looked like for this cylinder. It looks as if the electrode was gone, and it was using the valve for gound. Those burn marks around the valve relief almost make me believe this is true.

This in no way will affect your rebuild, just was wondering for my own curiousity. Im also curious if these are floating valves, or fixed valves.
 
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mrrsm

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Not to dispute your theory for the sake of general opposition... but the correct formula for measuring Spark Gap; whether from a High Voltage Static Electricity source or from that of a Coil On Plug Igniter... You have to Multiply 30,000 Volts Xs the Number of Centimeters in between the Gap at Sea Level in Dry Air in order to determine "How Much Voltage is necessary to Reliably Jump that Distance with a BIG enough Electrical Arc to 'Start a Fire" at TDC?".

The other factor making this 'jump' more difficult is Atmospheric Pressure. The Greater it is inside of the Cylinders...the Higher the Voltage needs to be to 'jump the gap'. In the GM Atlas Engine ...when the Spark begins to 'make the jump' that <<Pressure>> amounts to nearly 10 Atmospheres, which dramatically increases the struggle of 'making the jump' unless the Gap is held to be in the range of only 45-50 Thousandths of an Inch in that Naturally Aspirated Engine Design.

So in that scenario... it would be impossible for the Spark to 'Jump a Gap' from the Center of the Electrode and reaching ALL THE WAY over to the Edge of the Exhaust Valve Seat. This is why Super-Charged Engines (like the Twin R-1820s in the USCG SU-16 Grumman Albatross I used to Build and Repair) used Multiple, High Tension Magnetos to Light Off its Twin Super-Charged Aircraft Engines.

Those Powerful Magnetos were necessary in order to create an Ungodly Amount of Heavily Insulated High Voltage to overcome the 12-15:1 Compression Ratios when burning 115/145 Octane "Purple Jesus" Aviation Gasoline. Furthermore, THAT Amazing Fuel was also Heavily Laced with Tetra-Ethyl Lead to act as both a Valve Stem and Piston Cylinder Lubricant. The Fuel Mixture was 50% Normal Heptane Plus 50% of Iso-Octane.

The use of Leaded Fuel was the only practical means of stopping Engine Pre-Ignition at such High Levels of Compression happening inside of the Super-Charged 9 Radial Cylinders at Just Before Top Dead Center when these planes venture above15,000 Feet in Altitude and the Atmosphere was getting as 'thin as paper'.

A similar set of of Magnetos was necessary in the Super-Charged Rolls Royce "Merlin" Engine found in the British Spitfire and the American P-51 Mustang; sharing that same Engine during WWII.

So in this situation... I'm guessing that the more likely scenario is that during the Combustion Cycle... Hot Burning Fuel and Air simply "Jetted" through that small fracture margin in between the Defective Edge of the Valve and the Steel, Pressed In Valve Seat. This would have allowed the escaping Hot Gas to act like a Blow Torch and causing that weird, gradually widening Melt Damage.
 

Mooseman

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Hope we hear from him again. He hasn't logged in since posting here.
 
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Reprise

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From what I see of that engine / this thread... I think I'd look for another motor, TBH. Or another vehicle. :cry:

Spinning the cams 14(!) times to get the alignment marks to line up -- makes me glad I've got OHV engines in the two GMCs.
 

mrrsm

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Yeah... That sort of "goes with the territory..." with all DOHC Over Head Cam In-Line Engines sporting twice the number of Cams. In the case of the 6 Cylinder Atlas Engine, it has One (1) Timing Link every Seven (7) Links.

But since both Camshafts move at 1/2 the speed of the Crankshaft, arriving at Top Dead Center inside the #1 Cylinder requires that the Crankshaft be rotated twice as many times in order for the Crankshaft, Cam Phaser and Intake Camshaft Sprockets all to eventually wind up with a Black Link over their respective Key Sprocket Marks.

Ergo... 2 X 7 =14 Rotations. Once the owners or Engine Builders understand what's going on... this repetition becomes tolerable. It really would be nice for this New Member to let us know the outcome and status of his repair.
 
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tucker12

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Im back! Sorry for disappearing between covid and a few untimely family member passing its been on the back burner. However! I have the cylinder head back from the shop. They replaced the valves, seals, hot tanked it, and gave it a good once over for $100. Fed ex just delivered the parts this morning and this weekend I am hoping to jump back into the project.
I still have to remove the r&p, oil pan and timing cover.
The parts I ordered from rock auto were: new head bolts, intake gasket set, timing set, timing gasket set, water pump and gasket, o2 sensor, exhaust gasket set.
Also the consensus at the machine shop is that something foreign like a broken plug or my lead foot driving caused the valve to fail, but it is possible my cheap gas station fuel could be the culprit. The other valves were checked out to be in good condition but replaced anyway since we had it out. The shop replaced them with Mahle valves and seals.

Again, its good to be back!
-matt
 
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tucker12

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Today Has been A day.
I started removing the broken off head bolt studs and to my amazement all but one came out with right hand drill bits like butter. However the one on the passenger side at the back is giving me a run for my money. The rh drill bit snapped on the metal and when I removed the broken chunk of drill bit the chuck on my ryobi drill fell apart and into the engine. So after cursing everything under the god given sun. I bought a Makita subcompact drill and started to attempt to drill them out again. Then the drill bit once again snapped. I soaked it in penetrate wd40 and left it for the night

At this point in time I decided to check in with you guys to see if you had any voodo magic or something to help me because I do not want to pull the short block out. I attached photos of the bolt in question.

Thank you in advance .
 

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NJTB

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Aug 27, 2012
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Try using a LEFT turning drill bit. While drilling, the heat may be enough to spin it out, if not, use an EZ out very carefully. Don't break it in there.
 

tucker12

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Today after throwing 3 sets of left hand drill bits, easy outs and normal drill bits the bolt is still stuck in and the top part of the threads are gouged out.

Should I helicoil this or scrap this block?
 

mrrsm

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Unfortunately, most of the solutions that Work... Work Best when used from the very start of attempting to get these damned Broken Bolt Remnants removed.

The attached images show what works best at removing Broken Bolts from the GM 4.2L Mains Threaded Bolt Hole Locations. The depicted (and carefully measured for your benefit) Drill Guide and Drilling Procedures using of a proper Tap Handle on the Carbide Swirl EZ Out produced the Best Results.

Compare the Inside Diameter measurement of the Threaded Hole in the Engine Block Open Space above the Broken Bolt you are working with... against the Thicker, Inverted Portion (A or B) of this OTC Drill Guide Part # EN-47702-2 and if it WILL fit within that Threaded Space... it will do the Most Good at Guiding your Drill Bit Straight and True down into the Broken Bolt:

OTCEN47702A.jpgOTCEN47702B.jpgOTCEN47702C.jpgOTCEN47702D.jpgOTCEN47702E.jpgOTCEN47702F.jpgOTCEN47702G.jpgOTCEN47702H.jpgOTCEN47702I.jpgOTCEN47702J.jpgOTCEN47702K.jpg

Also... OTC has a Complete SAE Drill Guide System available on Amazon for around $80.00 that MAY also Do the Trick:


OTC-Tools-6982DGS-Drilling-System:

OTCDRILLGUIDESYSTEM.jpg
 

mrrsm

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You do NOT need to Scrap the Engine Block if you use the TIME-SERT Repair System and a Threaded M11 X 2.00 X 30mm Steel Cylinder to Replace the Damaged Aluminum Hole inside of the Engine Block:

View THIS Photo Album Linked below at my "Flickr-Bucket" to view EXACTLY how this can be done on the GM 4.2L Atlas Vortec 4200 Engine Block with the Proper TIME-SERT Tool Set:


These Kits will Tear a $1,000 Bill IN HALF...if purchased Brand New,

The lowest price on one presently available is THIS one I just found over on eBay ...and IT does NOT come with the Case and Printed Instructions and would require either obtaining Shorter M11 X 2.00 10,9 Plate Mounting Bolts OR the use of some Spacers necessary to secure the Guide Plate to the areas around the involved Bolt Hole.

That Plate must be laid out correctly in place and then Fastened down with No More than 10 Foot Pounds of Torque. Also, the Special SI Drill and SI Tap would need to be Pre-Measured for the Correct Drill and Tapping Depths into the Engine Block wrapping those Marks with Blue Painter's Tape prior to using this Gear:


EBAYTIMESERTOFFER1.jpgEBAYTIMESERTOFFER2.jpgEBAYTIMESERTOFFER3.jpgEBAYTIMESERTOFFER4.jpgEBAYTIMESERTOFFER5.jpgEBAYTIMESERTOFFER6.jpgEBAYTIMESERTOFFER7.jpgEBAYTIMESERTOFFER8.jpgEBAYTIMESERTOFFER9.jpg
 
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mrrsm

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Okay... THIS is a MUCH Better Deal on the Time-Sert Part# 4001 COMPLETE Kit Used Only ONCE to repair the Engine Block in an Envoy AND it comes with the Laminated Instruction Instruction Sheet, The Time Sert OEM Black Plastic Blow Molded Case and (12) M11 X 2.00 X 30mm Serts ...ALL for $275.00 Plus S&H from Michigan:


s-l1600.jpgs-l1600A.jpgs-l1600B.jpg
 

tucker12

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Good Lord I didn't think that these were that expensive.
 

tucker12

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So, Do I have to get the m11x2-30 inserts or can I use the easier to find m11x1.5-30 inserts?
 

mrrsm

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Using the Proper M11 X 2.00 X 30mm Thread Line Dimensions inside of the Atlas Vortec LL8 4200 Engine is Absolutely Necessary.

You can NOT Mix-N-Match the Thread Pitch from Coarse (2.00) to Fine (1.50). Putting in the Wrong Sized 'Serts' would cause the Time Sert System Repair to FAIL.

*** If you are choosing that Red Highlighted eBay Offer... The Seller mentions that the Complete Time Sert Kit will come with (12) M11 X 2.00 X 30mm Serts made specifically for this GM 4.2L Engine Block Repair

When it comes to the Machining Dimensions of ALL Fasteners...There is No Such Thing as "Easier to Find". When it comes to doing THESE Kinds of Repairs... If You're 'Nearly Correct'...Then You're 'Precisely WRONG'...!



If you closely Review and Download the Images I linked to my own Successful Time Sert Engine Block Repair... You'll notice that I used my Old MLS Head Gasket as a Barrier to dropping any Machining Metal Particles down inside of the Open, Exposed Engine Block.

You should do likewise by first Spraying down the Gasket with Brake Kleen to De-Grease Both Sides and then use either Gorilla or Duct Tape in a series of Overlapping Diagonals to cover every open area except for the Four Holes adjacent the Hole with the Damaged Bolt Hole for mounting the Guide Plate...and the Two Large Aluminum Cylinder Head Steel Guide Pins
 
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tucker12

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May 20, 2020
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ohio
So I guess my question is, If i by the set could i use the tools in the set to install different coils in other applications after I mended the Envoy with the coils in the set?
 

tucker12

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May 20, 2020
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ohio
I purchased the set (bankruptcy here I come). When it gets here I will post pics and double triple quadruple check everything with you guys before I use it.

Also, Thank you everyone, ( especially you MRRSM) for helping me out so far.
 
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mrrsm

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Sorry... But there is No Such Thing as a "Time Sert Crescent Wrench..."

Each Time Sert Kit has ONE SPECIFIC SET OF TOOLS IN ONE METRIC OD AND THREAD COUNT SIZE and DEPTH. These... as you can see from the provided images and Videos... need to include following items ffor Each Unique Stripped Bolt Hole Thread Line Problem:

(1) A Fixture Plate with Four Holes... 2-3 for attaching the plate to the Engine Block ...either Directly over or in between the Cylinders with Damaged Head Bolt Holes and one oversized hole to accommodate the Alignment Barrel and Set Pin.

(2) An Alignment Barrel and Set Pin to center the Fixture Plate PERFECTLY over the Damaged Bolt Holes.

(3) An Oddly Sized Metric "SI" Drill Bit to carefully remove what is left of the Damaged Thread Lines, Some of these Drill Bits serve to solve multiple issues in One Go. They can come with Two Drill Stages; one of which cuts the Upper Sert Seat into the Aluminum Block to accommodate the Sert STOP Collar-Ridges and the other for drilling deep enough into the Aluminum Block to prep a bored hole for the Special "SI" Tap.

(4) A Special "SI" Tap has the features of creating an Over-Sized Threaded Bore that allows the OUTSIDE Threads of the Time Sert Inserts to fit VERY TIGHT inside of the Engine Block and also still Maintain the Identical Thread Pitch and Thread Count on its INSIDE Threads that matches the GM OEM Bored and Tapped Holes originally created in the Engine Block to accept the GM OEM M11 X 2.00 X 135 mm TTY Stretch Bolts.

(5) A Special Lobed and Threaded Time Sert Insert Installation Tool that gets daubed with Time Sert Oil before screwing the Brand New Sert(s) onto it. Then the Installer must apply Lok-Tite Hi Temp red Thread Locker on the OUTSIDE of the Serts lower threads so that after the Lobed tip of this tool completely passes through the Sert and it is completely seated in to the Block... the last three threads will COLD FORGE and hold the Sert(s) permanently in the Engine Block. The Lok-Tite is meant to be applied as "Extra Insurance" against the advent of the Serts becoming Dislodged.

So as you can well surmise from how specific all of these Sub-Tools and Procedural Steps and Preparation are... there will be no opportunity of "free-lancing" and using the Special Kits for anything other than their intended purposes.

You should start to imagine very clearly about the very narrow alternatives for solving this problem that unhappily lay before you. All in All... That Complete Time-Sert Kit (with the needed Serts also included) should begin to look Very Appealing at that Price of $275.00 Plus S&H from the State of Michigan considering the lack of any other readily available and with much more expensive alternatives being the rest there to choose from. THIS Kit is the ONLY one that is was created and assembled specifically to solve your present dilemmas.

You'll have to look as completely as I did through ALL of the Time Sert offers handy at the moment and only there on eBAy and decide for yourself whether performing this repair on your own is worth preventing you from having to Buy Another Replacement Motor and inveigle yourself in all of the ancillary expenses that will soon pile up if THAT outcome becomes necessary... or not.
 
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mrrsm

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Ah....Sorry... (...caught from ambush...!) right in mid-sentence. Your questions have all been succinct... but have required complete explanations from my side because everything about this job is fraught with complications and.... and much outlay of effort and expense. How do you think I got here? :>)

Very Smart Move...

PURCHASEDTIMESERTKIT.jpg

But look at it THIS way...The Brand New Time-Sert Part# 4001 Kit that is designed SPECIFICALLY for the LL8 Head Bolt Repair and available from Amazon goes for around $470.00:

TIMESERT4001.jpg

So once you've succeeded with your repair.... You'll have the advantage of being able to re-sell A Complete Time Sert Kit as the solution to the Next Man in line who might stumble over these very same difficulties... and get the chance to quickly recoup this investment on CL or eBay.

The Fun will begin as soon as the Kit arrives. In the mean time.... Eyeball the Engine Block and Work Area and start gathering everything in support of doing this job properly. Go over the Youtube Videos and my Pics and prepare everything else well in advance of "The Day of the Work..." We should talk again...and by THAT I mean...You should ASK WHATEVER QUESTIONS YOU MIGHT HAVE LINGERING ON YOUR MIND BEFORE DOING ANYTHING...and avoid trying out any 'things' that could make matters worse. :>)
 
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mrrsm

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I had the chance to Zoom in and peek down into the image of the Engine Head Bolt Hole you posted, but was unable to make 'Ass, Heads or Tails' out of what is going on down inside of that space:

FUBAREDHEADBOLTHOLE.jpg

Is there any chance that you can take a few more close-up images with more clarity? And while you are at it... perhaps use a Digital Micrometer Depth Gauge or a Mechanic's Ruler to know how far down inside the Aluminum Head those efforts have managed to reach.

The idea for this additional inquiry is that if those prior efforts to Drill Down and extract the remaining Bolt Remnants continue to venture too far off center, it will be important to avoid Penetrating into any areas of the adjacent Coolant Jacket.

Normally... THIS Kent-Moore Part# EN-47702 Kit Head-Mains Broken Bolt Extraction Kit is used to properly extract Broken Head Bolt Remnant from within the LL8 and LS Aluminum Engine Blocks. Presently, a few of these kits are available on eBay for around $125.00 OBO :
FUBAREDHEADBOLTHOLE.jpgKMEN47702BOLTEXTRACTORKITC.jpgKMEN47702BOLTEXTRACTORKITB.jpgKMBOLTEXTRACTORSET.jpg1701268.jpg
 
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mrrsm

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In Post # 8... @Mooseman Links back to his historical work of creating THE Prime Thread at GMTN for Performing the Task of Timing Chain Set Replacement. THIS Video provides a lot of "visualization" that follows his Thread and helps to inform the Mechanic(s) taking on this Task:


For anyone interested... The Price on THIS Specialty Tool has come down substantially to $16.85 on Amazon with FREE S&H ... So there is NO Reason NOT to have this necessary thing somewhere available in your Tool Chest.***


CAMPHASERTOOLINSTALLED1.jpg


*** "Better to Have It and NOT Need It than Need It and NOT have It... ;>)"
 
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tucker12

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May 20, 2020
50
ohio
Like a Cold sore I'm back! Sorry for the intermission, I had a few family members get sick and Finals and everything else but now I'm free till Feb. so I hope to get this project finished!

So a recap, I purchased the exact same time sert set you recommended to me on ebay. It installs and lines up perfectly with the hole. Now the thing is that the broken bolt is still in the block. I tried reverse drill bits on it to no avail. My current idea was to use the alignment plate and bushing that comes with the time sert to keep a drill bit that's a bit smaller than the time sert to leave mean in the hole perpendicular to the deck surface to try to drill it out. Other than that, I got the power steering rack off with my new impact wrench and the oil pan and timing cover with my hand tools.

I have attached photos of the hole and the plate.


Again, thank you all for your help!

-matt
 

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mrrsm

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That TIME-SERT Kit you purchased is meant to be used for Performing the Repair and Replacement of the FUBARed Thread Lines left down inside in the Bolt Holes with a Replacement Steel Threaded Insert ONLY AFTER the Broken Bolt Shank has been Drilled Out FIRST.

Check out this Recent Thread from Post #4 onward and make mention THERE what you are doing HERE so you can solicit more information and input from @rchalmers3 about his most recent successful use of the Freedom Stallion Kit. THIS is the image that he provided of the Very Same Bolt Extraction Kit I mentioned to you a few Posts back in your Thread (Post #37).

Take NOTE of How Small the Drill being used in Freedom Kit is versus that 'Big Drill Bit' showing on your Photo of the TIME-SERT Plate Layout on your Engine Block. THIS is the Method @rchalmers3 that must be used that will be required to finish getting your Broken Bolt Shank Extracted... SO PLEASE... DO NOT KEEP DRILLING DOWN INTO THE HEAD WITH ANY LARGE DRILL BITS SET INTO THE TIME-SERT PLATE for the purpose of removing that Broken Head Bolt Shank!

Rick's Kit:


IMG_0304.jpg

https://gmtnation.com/forums/thread...ead-bolts-without-breaking.21712/#post-610620

STALLION EN-47702 BROKEN HEAD BOLT EXTRACTOR KIT

https://www.freedomracing.com/st-199-stallion-en-47702-bolt-extractor-set-alt.html
 
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