Cross Country Towing

[Alec Venable]

Hello, I've read many forum posts here, and back at trailvoy, about towing with these trucks, and I would like to pick the brains of some enthusiasts here. I have a 2003 GMC Envoy XL, it has the 4.2l I6, 3.73 rear axle, and 191,xxx miles on the clock. Someday in the fairly distant future, I am interested in living in a RV travel trailer full time. My field of work is seasonal, so I plan on living in out in the western US in the winter. My question is, would my envoy be up to the task of towing a 3,000-4,000lb travel trailer 1,800 miles, a couple times a year? I wouldn't want something serious to go wrong, the truck stall out, and leave me stranded on the interstate (worst case scenario). Maybe I should just buy a turbo diesel motor home and pull the 'voy behind it? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated from trailvoy experts. Let me know if you need more information about the truck. I know I would need a transmission cooler (and possibly a rebuilt transmission first), and to always tow in 3rd. Thanks

 

[northcreek]

IMO, your truck was built to handle that kind of load but, with 191 k on the clock you may be spending time in little towns that you didn't intend to.
I like the motorhome idea a lot better...Mike.

 

[Chickenhawk]

If mileage while towing is important to you, then no.

Experienced drivers use whatever gear keeps them in the best range for power, reliability and long transmission life and live with whatever speed and mileage they get.

Always tow in 3, and be prepared to go even lower if the grade is steep. The criteria is always the position of the gas pedal. If you can downshift and use less throttle, always go with the lower gear. In lots of towing tests with my 4.2, I can tell you that 3 is required over D in almost every case of towing, even on flat land, with anything over about 1000 pounds.

 

[Moore]

My 2 cents worth since you ask. The weights you list is a real small trailer. Not sure how you came up with that. General information, 0nly pay attention to what a trailers GVWR is not the dry wt. Current example my TT, the co says tongue wt. is 560lbs. I weighted it is really just over 900lbs. The trailer is a 27 ft. Not real big. The payload of my TB is about 1,000lbs. Just hooking up that trailer would be to much. Payload includes gas, people, cargo and any add ons in the vehicle. Just a WHD hitch will be close to 100lbs. So, what type of trailer size or type are you talking about a pop up or 18ft/20ft travel trailer.
I tow the RV with a F350 not the TB, (no way). I do tow a 3800lb 18ft jet boat with the TB. Only to nearby ramps. I do not trust the tranny to last without a add on cooler or tranny temp gauge and I am not adding either.
Tell us what the temps you get during the winter where you stay. Without modifying any RV for cold you will have many problems and use lots of propane.

 

[littleblazer]

Can it do it... yes probably. Would I? if I were to know the history of the truck well I wouldn't be scared but things will fail. it's at that age. Probably nothing major but small things yes. People have towed more with less, as long as you are smart about it it'll be fine. I would recommend a transmission cooler though.

As far as the D vs 3 argument, I can't comment because I only tow in town and don't really have an issue in drive... it's also 30 miles at a time so there's that.

One other thing, the tongue weight is something to keep an eye on. The boat trailer is a lot easier because you can adjust it. A travel trailer is a little harder because all you can really do is move around things for ballast.

In my personal opinion the diesel rv wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[DocBrown]

I will second everything ChickenHawk & Moore stated. Always tow in 3rd. Has the trans fluid been changed every 50k? And have you been using Dex VI in it, not Dex III?

You're Voy will tow a trailer in the weight range you describe. But a trailer that small may not be "livable" full time. I towed a 3500# hybrid trailer with our old Trailblazer. It did a great job. But I certainly would not want to spend more than a week or two at a time in something that size. Should you get a motor home you are talking about a whole different set of circumstances and expenses.

 

[Alec Venable]

Thanks for the replies! I would be looking at something like an rpod 179. It has a GVWR of 3,800 lb. I know the living space wouldn't be much, but I'm looking to spend more time outdoors anyway. I didn't expect fuel econ. to be good either, I'm guessing 10-13 MPG? The Envoy seems to run very well. I've done alot of work to it, and I absolutely love it. Sure it has the occasional hiccup; a couple times a year the starter turns the engine continuously without it starting, I just wait and try again then it starts right up. And also turning the wheel and accelerating at the same time after just having shifted into D from R makes the engine stumble, then it picks right up. Not sure what causes those two things, but they haven't ever rendered the vehicle immobile. That being said I would like to figure out why those two things are happening.
Living space and winter-proofing aside, towing it was my main concern. I know I would also need a brake controller and weight distributing hitch. I might try towing something a bit lighter a much shorter distance and see how the thing handles. Anyone have experience towing long distances with a high mileage trail/voy?

 

[littleblazer]

I'd say like 10 mpg...

 

[triz]

At 191k it will be rough. My truck at 171k doesn't want to tow anymore. If I even think of towing with it it gives me all types of codes. My last two tows was a 2200lb car with a Uhaul trailer from West Virginia to Florida and she did okay. The last tow from Venice Fl to St. Petersburg towing a Tribute and she just was like please get this thing of of me. Went limp and I waited and made it home eventually. But I promised her that would be the last I hauled.

 

[Moore]

Ok, I think your just being silly. Asking should I tow than live in the west in the winter in a Rpod 179 or a turbo diesel motor home. I cannot even think of a good comparison of how different each is. If your really trying this, please spend some time at a RV dealer looking at a Rpod 179 or any model rpod and than a (any) turbo diesel motor home. Tell us what you want to live in and why.

 

[Harpo]

You will be ok.


4400lbs 12mpg ~1200 miles every year.

 

[Alec Venable]

You will be ok.


4400lbs 12mpg ~1200 miles every year.

View attachment 78996

Harpo, I love your setup! Very good to see. So this has been done. I'm amazed your pulling a trailer that big. These things can do more than I thought. Thank you for your post. I might be asking you more about your setup later.

 

[Alec Venable]

I also appreciate everyone else's replies, I will take all of your recommendations and precautions.

 

[Moore]

Harpo, is your weights you list from a scale or what was printed about the trailer. If not get real weights of the TV and trailer. As that trailer looks like a light weight, I could understand the 4400 might be a loaded weight. Do you use a WHD and anti sway, I cannot see any on the photo.

 

[DocBrown]

Harpo is from Sweden. Not only are European trailers made differently and far lighter, they use no WDH because of the placement of the wheels. Towing laws are completely different than ours, moreover rated towing capacities are higher on European vehicles.

In other words, it's an apples to oranges comparison.

 

[Moore]

Ok, thanks. I wonder if Harpo's set up would work out here in the west with highway speeds, 80,000lb vehicles passing you, or standard high winds in many areas and 7% up and down grades.

 

[littleblazer]

Maybe the grades would get it but even then not much. Balanced axle makes a huge difference as far as its tendency to steer you. I mean my grandfather used to pull his 20 foot wellcraft with a vw bug. doesn't get much scarier then that.

Actually it may have been a rabbit. not entirely sure.

 

[Harpo]

Empty weight is 3968lb max weight is 4409lb but I'm probably at 4850lb on vacation. The truck is now also equipped with a big roofbox.
When we go on vacation we are 2 adults and 5 kids in it plus max loaded in the back and roofbox.
I think we have a total weight of about 11,250lb.
My 2002 Tb EXT is almost at 180K miles, 3:73 rear

Yes it's very heavy,but it's no problems at all. I do avoid steep and looong inclines because when the tranny is out of lockup it's making tremendous heat very fast.
I do have a big external cooler and will for next summer get a separate 8" electric fan for it to use on hilly roads at lower speeds.

I ALWAYS use third and got Torque app to rigorously monitor the temp of the tranny.

Yes I live in Sweden, but my Tb is a Us import and have the same towing ratings as yours, so does the Tb:s that is/was sold here in Sweden as well, so no difference there.

We have a max speed of 50mph when towing a trailer, that is for big rigs as well.

No wdh hitches here at all. I can easily lift my caravan on the ball.

I think I have 175lb on the ball, so it is rather well balanced on the wheels.

I do have a antisway coupling on the caravan with small pads of friction material that is squeezed around the the hitch ball,works nice when you meet the big timbertrucks on narrow country roads.

 

[DocBrown]

And there's the differences. 50 mph max speed towing a trailer. While I tow at 62 or so, some still want to tow at the speed limit or higher, which is 70 in most places. Some states limit trucks and vehicles with trailers to 60 or 65 but not all.

175# on the tongue. My trailer is around 600# tongue weight.

The equivalent of your trailer in the US would likely weigh closer to 6k GVWR and have a nearly 800# tongue weight.

 

[Moore]

Harpo, I think your asking a lot of your vehicle but, so far as you say it seems to be OK. I want to say that I added a electric fan onto my over size tranny cooler on my f350, that is a 1 ton pickup. You are right the slower speeds cause higher tranny temps. I do not normally turn mine on unless on a big mountain pass in hot temps 100f or more. But, I do turn it on when ever towing in stop and go or back country roads were speeds are below 40-45 mph it will drop the tranny temp up to about 20 degrees. Pushing up grades it will get into the 220f temps before I slow down. If it goes beyond that I will pull over and idle to cool it down with fan on. So, far it has not.

 

[Harpo]

And there's the differences. 50 mph max speed towing a trailer. While I tow at 62 or so, some still want to tow at the speed limit or higher, which is 70 in most places. Some states limit trucks and vehicles with trailers to 60 or 65 but not all.

175# on the tongue. My trailer is around 600# tongue weight.

The equivalent of your trailer in the US would likely weigh closer to 6k GVWR and have a nearly 800# tongue weight.

Why! do you put all that weight on tongue??, it's insane.
It must be very unstable to drive, even with wd hitch. That's a very strange way to do it to me that are used to another system.

The brake system is another thing I don't get. We have a system that use a "push on brake", the more you brake the truck the more the more the trailer push forward = more push more brake. I don't even feel my trailer weight when braking as it should be if it's properly adjusted.

You should pull the trailer with your truck, not pull, lift and brake it.


Yes, 50mph is the legal speed but I'm at 52-55 range mostly because there is where the sweetspot on my truck/trailer combo is.

 

[littleblazer]

@Harpo Your brakes on your trailer are mechanical though correct? Uses a pump on the hitch rather then an electronic controller?

 

[Harpo]

Yes it a totally mechanical brakesystem.
I've attached a pic to show the principle.

 

[littleblazer]

We have them, they're surge style here. I've mainly seen them on boat trailers.

 

[Moore]

Harpo, thats' s what we use on most nearly every boat trailer braking system. My current boat uses KIA disk brakes. The RVs use the electric with drums mostly but there are also some with disks and hydraulic. Why all the differences someone else will need to advise. I do not know. But, I believe that in the US we have bigger trucks and RVs, drive faster, highways out west miles of 7% grades. Back roads even more. TB is about the smallest type vehicle to RV with compared to what the auto makes have for us. My TT is small it, is 27 ft. long, 8 ft wide, 11.1 ft tall. The bottom of the door to enter it is 34 inch's above the roadway. Hitch wt. That I checked myself is about 900lbs loaded to camp for the weekend. My check showed the trailer at 6800lbs on the axles. So, add them together 7700lbs. Again of 11 models mine is #2 for the smallest of the Cougar line of travel trailers. My truck is popular, many thousands on the roads and can tow 16,000 lbs. New trucks much more, mine is 15 years old. There are ultra light trailers like the Rpods. They are not made for full time living or long term camping. But can be towed with small SUVs and pickups.

 

[Harpo]

Now I understand why almost everyone has a pickup for towing.
Here cars trucks and pickups is so much more expensive so that's not an option.


Edit:
I Google for pics on those Rv:s
I've looked at a lot of pics of cougar and rpods and all of them seems to have the wheels waaay of the center of weight, way back towards the rear. Seems very strange to me.

That would also make our style of brakesystem not working very well I imagine, to much tongue weight would make that system to weak because of the moving parts required.

 

[Mooseman]

The disadvantage with surge hydraulic systems like yours is that it cannot be activated manually, like an electric brake, if the trailer starts to jackknife on you.

 

[DocBrown]

Why! do you put all that weight on tongue??, it's insane.
It must be very unstable to drive, even with wd hitch. That's a very strange way to do it to me that are used to another system.

The brake system is another thing I don't get. We have a system that use a "push on brake", the more you brake the truck the more the more the trailer push forward = more push more brake. I don't even feel my trailer weight when braking as it should be if it's properly adjusted.

You should pull the trailer with your truck, not pull, lift and brake it.


Yes, 50mph is the legal speed but I'm at 52-55 range mostly because there is where the sweetspot on my truck/trailer combo is.

Ha! It tows beautifully. I've towed travel trailers many thousands of miles and never an issue. Very stable and comfortable to drive.

And no, the truck does not brake the trailer. It has electric brakes and I use a proportional brake controller that senses the speed of the tow vehicle and applies voltage accordingly. I've had surge brakes, twice. Those were pop-up campers with light tongue weights. Frankly they suck and will never tow with them again.

As far as cost, my Sierra gets better day to day mileage than your Envoy does. It's true. I had a Trailblazer for 8 years. My Sierra gets 1-2 mpg better than the TB did.

 

[littleblazer]

My only experience with electronic brakes on trailers or any for that matter is on boats... and they don't like salt water no matter how well you maintain them. the surge seem to fare better in that respect. we have electronic brakes on our form trailers but they kind of sucks. the system is also 20 years old at this point... then again so are 2 of the tow vehicles.

If the truck can handle the extra tongue weight, it will actually help with bumps and sway. on something with a soft rear like a TB it's better to keep it light because it really can't take too much and it'll get weird.

 

[DocBrown]

Good points. I will say this about electric brakes, the right type of controller can make or break or your experience. The kind to get is a proportional controller like a Prodigy. The kind that is not so great is a time delay type.

 

[Harpo]

I can agree with the problems with surgebrakes on very lightweight/small pop-ups and cargo trailers. they have a tendency to not brake at all or just slamming on full brake. That is not a problem with heavier trailers that applies more moving weight to the system and therefore smoother more proportional braking characteristics.

I think it's safe to say that each system probably does its work if properly adjusted.

I do still think it's strange to have to use wd-hitch when you so easily could avoid that problem by moving the axle/s a little bit forward on the heavier trailers when they build them.


I also have to say that a wet dream for me is to have a Chevy dually and a really big fifthwheeler trailer. Unfortunately that is soo far out of my league pricewise.

And the other problem is that it is almost non existing over here, I saw a ad on a used combo a couple of years ago, I think it was a high milage mid 2000 model that was for sale for about 1,500 000 sek, that's about $167 k.

 

[DocBrown]

I do still think it's strange to have to use wd-hitch when you so easily could avoid that problem by moving the axle/s a little bit forward on the heavier trailers.

Easily? Not sure how they build trailers there but it would be near impossible to do on most trailers here. Completely different construction approach.

I also have to say that a wet dream for me is to have a Chevy dually and a really big fifthwheeler trailer. Unfortunately that is soo far out of my league pricewise.

That's a retirement dream for us. Not cheap here either.

 

[littleblazer]

I can move the axle on my boat trailer. sorry I had to. trying to figure out what brake controller is on my truck.

 

[07Denali]

I tow a Lance 2015.5 1995 model its 23ft and around 5100lbs camping ready with about 500 on the hitch using Andersen WDH its nice and light and easy to use. Check out Lance travel trailers too very light weight and high build quality.