Coolant system failure spiral.

JayArr

Original poster
Member
Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
My cooling system repair is almost done. After looking at all the parts I think I can deduct what happened on our trip. I'll post this just as a guide of what can happen and what to check.

First Problem: The power wires to the fan clutch broke. The black and white ones. The copper broke inside the insulation so it wasn't visible to the naked eye and the fan worked intermittantly. It's important to note that I didn't discover this failure until I had driven 3000 miles. While on vacation on a hot August day it failed and the engine overheated the first time. It then randomly overheated and I think the high pressure from these overheats caused the waterpump front shaft seal to fail.

Here's how to check for this without any tools: grab the wires one at a time at the plug on the wiring harness side and tug. If they are broken inside the insulation will stretch a little then spring back. If you find a wire that stretches a little gently pull it and see if it will stretch out until the insulation breaks. This can be easily done anytime you open the hood.

Once the water pump failed it would slowly leak coolant creating an air pocket in the cooling system and the vehicle would run fine for about two hours then suddenly wham! overheat. I think that this occurred when the coolant level fell below the temperature sender and allowed it to read steam instead of just coolant.

So, now I'm in Alberta with the wife, two dogs, a trailer and an overheating vehicle. We also have reservations all the way across the country each night to get to my uncles for a funeral and then on to her mother so the idea of stopping for a couple of days to get a water pump replaced is out of the question. My solution is to pour stop leak into the rad and stop every two hours, let it cool down and add coolant. This works all the way across the prairies. The stop leak sealed the water pump and by driving with the Tech2 attached we are able to keep an eye on the temp. Every couple of days the stop leak would wear out and the shaft would start leaking again so I'd throw another bottle in. I think I used three bottles in total between BC and Ontario. I stop at a NAPA in Brandon Manitoba and buy a water pump and the tool to get the fan clutch off. I stow it in the back.

After nursing it 3000 miles to Ontario I'm filling it up at our campsite and I notice that the fan seems to run on too freely after the engine shuts off, a little investigation and I discover the failed power wires. I bypass the connector and repair the harness in a very ugly but effective way right there in the campsite with some wire I cut out of an extension core, marrettes, black tape and zip ties. This greatly improves things and now I can run three or four hours before I have to stop and refill.

We finally get to the MIL house and I've got a couple of days so I put it in the garage and scrounge around the shed out back and find ramps and buckets and such (FIL passed away a couple of years ago but luckily all his tools are still there). I carry sockets, wrenches etc with me. Changed the water pump in a couple of hours. I also do a more permanent solder repair of the wiring harness.

Everything seems good to go, we head west a couple of days later and it's running cool and there are no leaks. All is fine until we hit the mountains. It slows down up the grades, which is fine, I don't mind going slow. It also overheats. This causes me to reduce speed even further to keep the temp down and we end up at 10MPH by the summit of each pass. Two brutal days on Hwy 3 see us climb through about 8 summits around 4000-5000 feet and it overheats each time. It's of note that once we hit the summit if cools off within a couple of miles, really nice and fast.

I imagine this overheating is now also overheating the transmission fluid and since we're climbing peaks in first and descending the other side in second or third the transmission is getting a hell of a workout. I get my first TCC code on the mountains.

The vehicle is a CHAMP! it didn't start to slip out of gear until 20 miles from home on flat hwy. It could have failed in the mountains and cost me a fortune to tow home but it held out and pulled the trailer into the driveway under it's own power. The tranny is shot but it had 250K on it anyway.

I bought a good used tranny from the wrecker and put it in to solve for that. I've also installed an external transmission cooler. Then I pulled the whole cooling system apart, flushed it and replaced the rad, pump, thermostat hoses and fan clutch. It's running cool. I pulled the rad apart and found the cause of the overheating. The stop leak clogged it all up. Self inflicted damage, it solved one problem and got me across the country but almost toasted me on the way home.

The moral of the story... check the wires to your fan clutch! LOL
 

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gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Good story, the most important part was you weren't stranded and the family is safe, could have been worse.

Hopefully all is good, when you said "overheating", is this in the 240 deg range or with the needle pegged past 260?

If the latter, I would also suggest a leak down test when you get the chance just to rule out any possible head gasket leaks.
 
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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
If the wires were broken, why didn't it throw any codes for it? Maybe because it was intermittent? But you would think that it would give a pending code?

Stop leaks are evil. BIL had used some in his car once and complained that he had no heat. Heater core was plugged. Flushed it all out and heat was back however so was the leak. Replaced the radiator, problem solved. They sometimes cause more problems than they solve.
 

JayArr

Original poster
Member
Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
The hall effect wires were all OK so the PCM was getting an rpm signal. There is no provision for testing to see if the solenoid signal has continuity. The service manual says the fan clutch has to be 1000RPM off for 100 seconds to set the code.

We saw temps on the Tech2 of 125 Celsius (257F) and at the peak of the highest summit 130C (266F). The temp criteria is 132C (270F) for 10 seconds.

I've done a coolant system pressure check and a leakdown test on all cylinders. The head gasket is intact.

With the 1000RPM in mind I just did three sets of tests.

Idle, RPM=620
Command=0, Actual=752, Desired=304
Command=100%, Actual=752, Desired=752

2000RPM
Command=0, Actual=1400, Desired=304
Command=100%, Actual=1520, Desired=2560

3000RPM
Command=0, Actual=1520, Desired=304
Command=100%, Actual=1950, Desired=3200

First conclusion is that at 90 degrees the fan is not commanded on.

Second conclusion is that without a command the fan won't freewheel faster than about 1500RPM.

My other observation is that at maximum this particular Hayden clutch won't keep the fan within 1000RPM of the desired RPM. This fan may be acceptable in the majority of vehicles that aren't towing but I want to tow my limit up a mountain so I think I'll return it and try the Behr model. I'll do the same tests on it and see if it will keep the fan within 1000RPM at 100% at 2000 and 3000RPM.
 
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Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Interesting findings. I would have tested the original clutch my TB but my son is using it as his daily ride and is difficult to nail down.
 

JayArr

Original poster
Member
Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
If anyone else wants to test their clutch under the above criteria and post it up it would be welcome and help to provide benchmarks by which we can test new and used fan clutches. These things seem to cause more than a few headaches and now it seems like they can be working but still not performing to specification which means the old test of holding the fan with a rag and feeling for a click or pulse may not be enough.
 

Mektek

Member
May 2, 2017
656
FL
Three bottles of stop leak is asking for trouble. If one bottle doesn't do it, then the leak is big enough to require a mechanical repair. And you also have to be sure you are using the proper stop leak. Some require the coolant be drained before use.
As for the fan clutch, they need to be regularly checked. With the engine running, watch the fan and check for runout. A very small amount is tolerable, but if there is too much the wiring harness will be shaken into oblivion - Even pull the harness out of its retaining bracket or cause metal fatigue in the wires at the connector. So you may have a bad new water pump or it can fail a few months after install.
 

mrrsm

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The attached JPEGS are images of the Diagnostic Flow Charts and practically everything else that has ever been mentioned on this issue, so it might mean that there will be some redundancies in the mix. @TJBaker57 has done a LOT of work with these issues and is an Absolute GENIUS with Electrical and Electronic Problems so consulting with him would be a great collaboration between the two of you:

Part 1 of 2 Sets of Images:

FANCLUTCH1.jpgFANCLUTCH2.jpgFANCLUTCH2A.jpgFANCLUTCH3.jpgFANCLUTCH3B.jpgFANCLUTCH4.jpgFANCLUTCH5.jpgFANCLUTCH6.jpgFANCLUTCH7.jpgFANCLUTCH8.jpgFANCLUTCHA.jpgTAFANCLUTCHWIRING.jpg
 

mrrsm

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Part 2 of 2 Set of Images:

6ccdc946-7358-4993-a6fc-2c5c9a7ea8a4_trailblaser.PNG2007-07-05_081001_TSB_on_oveheating_for_Trailblazer.jpg2007-11-04_020620_tsb.JPG2007-11-10_221441_14811.gif2007-11-10_221515_14812.gif2009-09-08_035103_cooling.png2009-10-24_201334_fan-harness.gif2011-06-11_194914_1b.gif2012-09-10_185545_3.gif

Hope something of what is in here becomes useful...
 

JayArr

Original poster
Member
Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
Sounds good MRRSM. Most of those docs are in the manual but not everyone has a paper manual so those are handy.

Hey @TJBaker57 , have you ever run tests like the above to see how good a new or used clutch is? I know we can tell if it's working by slowing it with a rag and feeling for the solenoid to engage and change the fluid balance. I'm looking for a method to measure not only IF it's working but how well. I'm curious if any of these clutches can achieve the "Desired" RPM at 2000 or 3000RPM. Maybe this is one of the reasons some are cheaper than others.

If the Hayden can only reach 1520 when the computer has determined it needs 2560 then naturally the vehicle is going to overheat. Going up a big summit with my trailer on has caused my heat to spike to temps that would require 100% fan clutch. I don't want to save $100 on an aftermarket clutch if it only goes to 1520 and the GM one goes to 2560.
 
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mrrsm

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Here is another Resource that comes from a Rare Diagnostic done by Scanner Danner that may also prove interesting regarding what things are supposed to happen at certain RPM Ranges as he Probes and examines the Harness and everything else in between:

 
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TJBaker57

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Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
Sounds good MRRSM. Most of those docs are in the manual but not everyone has a paper manual so those are handy.

Hey @TJBaker57 , have you ever run tests like the above to see how good a new or used clutch is? I know we can tell if it's working by slowing it with a rag and feeling for the solenoid to engage and change the fluid balance. I'm looking for a method to measure not only IF it's working but how well. I'm curious if any of these clutches can achieve the "Desired" RPM at 2000 or 3000RPM. Maybe this is one of the reasons some are cheaper than others.

If the Hayden can only reach 1520 when the computer has determined it needs 2560 then naturally the vehicle is going to overheat. Going up a big summit with my trailer on has caused my heat to spike to temps that would require 100% fan clutch. I don't want to save $100 on an aftermarket clutch if it only goes to 1520 and the GM one goes to 2560.


I am currently in transit, delivering a 1984 Volkswagen Camper that I sold so cannot currently test my TrailBlazer. However, I have already tested my junkyard pulled Behr fan clutch and can say that mine does indeed hit rpms greater than 2500 when I command it to 100%. I have actually worried about what might be the maximum safe rpm for the fan. I would imagine the PCM programming prevents an overspeed but I am commanding mine on manually as tests sometimes.

I know the commands the tech 2 sends to command the fan and I have replicated such in the Torque App as pushbuttons. They only take effect for about 3 to 5 seconds for a press of the button but the fan takes at least a minute or so to disengage so it works out fairly well. If I find myself running warmer than I care to for whatever reason suits me I press one of the Torque app buttons I have preset at various percentages and cool things down a bit.

My junkyard fan does not ever run lower than about 700 at idle. My desired is almost always 496. I will have to check on what my PCM calibration is, I believe it is likely the original for a build date of 10/2001. I think there were several changes over the years for management of the fan speed.

Screenshot_20200929-080804.png
 
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JayArr

Original poster
Member
Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
The PCM will set a code if:

The fan runs greater than 6800RPM (P0493) or if

The fan runs greater than 1600 for 81 seconds when the PCM is commanding 0 (P0495) or if

The difference between the commanded and actual fan speed is greater than 1000RPM for 100 seconds (P0483)

It will also throw codes if it loses the RPM signal.

I've confirmed in the manual that it should run around 800RPM with command=0. The clutch I pulled out didn't run at 700-800 at idle, it ran down around the 304 and I think the valve was being used at idle to achieve that. I think, now, that this is an indication that it was failing. My conclusion is that the fan shouldn't need to be commanded on at idle and if it does the clutch is on it's way out.

The new Haydon clutch won't reach the commanded speed so I think my conclusion is that it is "defective" or at least "not of high quality". The charts in the manual direct you to replace the fan clutch if it won't spin the fan within 1000RPM of the desired command at 2000RPM. This unit is brand new and right on the cusp of failing on day one.

Shame on you Hayden, where's your quality control?
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Shame on you Hayden, where's your quality control?

Maybe not a quality control issue but a "good enough for most people" issue, which is unfortunately the norm nowadays. Now I wonder if that's why my Saab was getting warm (>230f) while towing with the thermal clutch, also a Hayden.
 
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JayArr

Original poster
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Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
Just an FYI for anyone watching that Scanner Danner video. The fan isn't ever going to go down to 300, Dan is puzzled by that and thinks it's a defect and talks about it a lot. For a few days last week I thought the same thing because my new Hadon wouldn't go below 720 and my old clutch would run right at 304 but the GM manual says that it's OK for the fan RPM to be 800RPM at idle and I think when a clutch is new that's where it's going to be with command=0.

In fact, if your fan does go all the way down to 300 then start thinking about replacing it because you may have lost some of the fluid or the fluid may be contaminated or worn out.

I received my Mahle/Behr clutch today from Rock Auto and what a difference in quality over the Haydon. It has a brand name NSK bearing, is milled all around so you know it's round and symmetrical and balanced. The wires are thicker than stock and there are strain reliefs built in to keep them from breaking in the future. It's just built really really well. Guess what? Made in the USA!

I'll get it installed this weekend and run the same tests on it and post the results.
 

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Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
If you can, please take some comparison shots of both side by side. It would be good to see the actual differences, quality wise.

That's my thought too if a clutch is running that slow it's just freewheeling and barely turning on parasitic drag.
 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
Was at the boneyard the other day and spotted a perfect example of the wire degradation near the clutch harness connecter.

IMG_20200930_144849.jpg
 

JayArr

Original poster
Member
Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
OK, here's the side by side pictures, I hope it's as clear to you as it is for me that the Behr is superior.
 

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JayArr

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Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
I've installed it and run the same tests as I did last week on the Haydon.

I'll amalgamate the two sets of data here so it's easier to compare.

Idle, RPM=620

Command = 0
Haydon - Desired=304, Actual=752
Behr - Desired=304, Actual=736

Command = 100%
Haydon - Desired=752, Actual=752
Behr - Desired=816, Actual=816


2000RPM

Command = 0
Haydon - Desired=304, Actual=1400
Behr - Desired=304, Actual=1260

Command = 100%
Haydon - Desired=2560, Actual=1520
Behr - Desired=2608, Actual=2608

3000RPM

Command = 0
Haydon - Desired=304, Actual=1520
Behr - Desired=304, Actual=1568

Command = 100%
Haydon - Desired=3200, Actual=1950
Behr - Desired=3584, Actual=3456
 
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JayArr

Original poster
Member
Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
Conclusions:

At idle they are about the same, with command = 0 they both idle up between 750 and 850 which is to be expected when new.

At 2000RPM we start to see differences, at command=0 we see similar results. At Command=100% we see a difference that matters, the Hadon cannot reach the desired RPM, it lags down around 1500 even though the pcm is calling for 2500. The Behr has no such problem, it turns at 2608 when the pcm wants 2608.

At 3000RPM we see similar results at command=0 but great differences at command=100%. The PCM wants 3584 and the clutch almost makes it (3456) the Haydon under those conditions can only make 1950, a full 1250 RPM below desired.

It's easy to cool an engine on a flat highway with no trailer, that's not where you need to test the clutch, going up a mountain with a trailer in 2nd at 2000RPM won't even get you to the speed limit but as long as the clutch can keep the block cool you'll reach the top eventually. That's where you need a clutch that can keep up with the desired command of the pcm.
 
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mrrsm

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WOW... If ever their was a Thread capable of Breaking New Ground and Thrashing Out all of the possible variables involved with this Topic... THIS One is THAT Thread. Isn't it Time to make this to become a "Technical Article" and add in all of these great ideas and diagnostic observations to the Original FAQ?
 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
I've installed it and run the same tests as I did last week on the Haydon.

I'll amalgamate the two sets of data here so it's easier to compare.

Idle, RPM=620


Command = 0

Haydon - Desired=304, Actual=752
Behr - Desired=304, Actual=736

Command = 100%
Haydon - Desired=752, Actual=752
Behr - Desired=816, Actual=816


2000RPM


Command = 0
Haydon - Desired=304, Actual=1400
Behr - Desired=304, Actual=2596

Command = 100%

Haydon - Desired=2560, Actual=1520
Behr - Desired=2608, Actual=2608

3000RPM

Command = 0
Haydon - Desired=304, Actual=1520
Behr - Desired=304, Actual=1568

Command = 100%

Haydon - Desired=3200, Actual=1950
Behr - Desired=3584, Actual=3456


Question: how much time was given at 2000 rpm or better to allow the Behr to fully release before taking the "0% command" value? Is it possible it had not fully released, which can take two minutes at 2000 rpm, yet? The 2000 rpm, command 0%, actual 2596 rpm is what raised my eyebrow.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Looking at them physically side by side, the Behr has more and bigger cooling fins and performs as designed. For the longest time, it was just too expensive to recommend but the price now is way more competitive.

So Hayden has been knocked off the Iron Throne. All hail Behr!
 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
Given the damaged wiring pictured earlier that I saw on the Behr at the junkyard, if I were installing a new one, regardless of make, I think I would look into fortifying that damage prone area in some fashion. Maybe encase the wires in silicone or something? Would have to look closer.
 

JayArr

Original poster
Member
Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
@TJBaker57 I think you're right about the high reading at 2000RPM with command=0, I'll re-run that particular RPM again today.

The junkyard fan looks pretty rough, are we sure the damage to the wiring harness predates the impact? LOL. While looking for fans I'm sure I saw someone selling the harness from the clutch to the shroud separately, I'll have to backtrack to see if I can find it again because if it's available and not expensive it would be a good spare to have in the car. It has a plug on both ends so it could be swapped in in a matter of minutes in a parking lot.

@Mooseman is correct, the Behr is now less than $20 more at Rock Auto so why wouldn't you spent the extra and get the good one.

@MRRSM, feel free to cut and paste whatever you think should be saved. The whole idea of these posts is to make the next guy more knowledgeable.

The other thing I did was replace the wiring harness end with a new connector from RA, S1479 - $6Cdn, the wires are a lower gauge (thicker) and the insulation is better. I don't think it will break in the remaining lifetime of the car. Notice in the picture how I cut the wires in a stepped pattern so that they weren't all at the same place in the harness, I also made all the connections away from the end so that the protective shield covers them. Finally the connections are all soldered and covered in heat shrink tubing. For $6 I'd recommend everyone replace this connector the next time they open their hood as a preventative maintenance action.
 

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Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Given the damaged wiring pictured earlier that I saw on the Behr at the junkyard, if I were installing a new one, regardless of make, I think I would look into fortifying that damage prone area in some fashion. Maybe encase the wires in silicone or something? Would have to look closer.


Maybe some of that spiral wire protector or a bunch of small zip ties.
 

Chemman

Member
Jul 13, 2013
35
Maryland
JayArr, I wonder if it might be worth it to pass your findings along to Hayden/Standard Motor Products and ask them why their product is not as good as the Behr/Mahle unit?

Wonderful write up and a real opener! I just checked Rockauto and the price difference between the Hayden and Behr units is currently $13.00.

Thanks for all the hard work!
 

JayArr

Original poster
Member
Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
I think the Haydon is just a cheap Chinese knockoff, it's smaller in every dimension, it's made of inferior parts, no name bearings, even the threaded nut that attaches to the water pump is shorter and made from what looks like inferior steel. It isn't machined to ensure that it's cylindrical or balanced, it has fewer fins and they aren't as tall. In the end it doesn't even work properly.

I doubt Haydon designed it or can do anything about the poor quality, they get what ever China sends and they have to try to sell it based on being the lower price.

Without sounding political, and keep in mind I'm Canadian buying from the USA. Before the 25% tariff went into effect this is the kind of product that used to be so much cheaper than the Behr unit that people would buy it to save $$$. Now that there are tariffs on the cheap Chinese junk and the prices are closer to equal it just doesn't make sense to buy the offshore crap.

You know what I'd like? I'd like it if RockAuto and the other online parts houses would list the country of manufacture of each part on the site. If they had done that and I had seen that the USA made part was less than $20 extra I would have bought it the first time I ordered.
 
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Chemman

Member
Jul 13, 2013
35
Maryland
I agree with you about listing the country of origin!

When I replaced my fan clutch about 5 hears ago, I purchased a NAPA fan clutch, and when I got it I remember joking with the counterman that the part was made in the USA. I assumed that Standard Motor Products manufactured it under either their Hayden or Four Seasons moniker since Standard supplies NAPA with the Echlin engine management parts and most of the NAPA branded, higher quality HVAC parts.

I do remember thinking that the NAPA branded fan clutch was not a piece of Chinese junk and that if compared favorably with the Behr manufactured OEM unit it replaced. As I said, that was 5 years ago, and things might have changed since then. Of course things can change with time, and SMP might not be manufacturing their own fan clutches anymore.

I do know that if I had to replace the fan clutch today, I would likely go with the Mahle/Behr unit since there is only $13.00 difference in price between the two. Plus, I don't see where the likely Mahle/Behr manufactures ACDelco OEM branded unit is worth ~$90 more than the Mahle/Behr unit.

Again, thanks for the great write up!
 

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