Circuit breaker pops out on one side

Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
Hi everyone. I really tried to answer this one on my own but I'm not getting far. Most of the electrical things I find online have to do with the wiring that many of you have supplied me information on in my other posts, or I get a ton of information on fuses and relays. What I'm not getting information on is what are apparently circuit breakers? There's a 15 amp circuit breaker / fuse in the box behind the driver's seat. There are others also with this metal appearance as opposed to the plastic regular fuses and relays. I'm trying to figure out if they go bad, and how to know. I'm concerned that one leg of it seems to pop up and I can feel it's not in because I can physically push it back into where it should be. I distinctly remember pushing it and multiple other fuses in the same box down in tightly about a week ago. Today, all the fuses seem to still be in the fuse box tightly but the circuit breaker pops up loose on one side. It's only happening on the 15 amp one. I've already pushed it back down once today for it to pop up loose again. The diagram says RR Wipers. I find this interesting because if that has to do with my rear wiper, I do have issues where I turn it on with no response at times.

Why is it popping up? It's my understanding that I would see fuses blown for things before I would be seeing circuit breaker problems but then again I'm not finding a lot of information on breaker specific details online. At best, I found replacing the fuse box itself is going to be necessary and I found another post that said to spray cleaner for electronics by crc. I didn't find anything about replacing them because apparently they're supposed to have a very long life, though I did see they sell them.

Soooooo.....
 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
I am curious. What number is this breaker in the rear fuseblock? I have rear wipers but I can find nothing labeled for them in either fuseblock. I can find no diagram that spells that out either. Only the diagram for the EXT calls out a fuse (not a breaker?) for rear wipers.

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Chickenhawk

Member
Dec 6, 2011
779
Is it possible a previous owner replaced a fuse with a circuit breaker because they kept burning out fuses so often? Generally, before one replaces the fuse box, you should trace the wiring to the rear wipers. In most cases, it will be a short where the wiring joins the tailgate.
 

Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
I am curious. What number is this breaker in the rear fuseblock? I have rear wipers but I can find nothing labeled for them in either fuseblock. I can find no diagram that spells that out either. Only the diagram for the EXT calls out a fuse (not a breaker?) for rear wipers.

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Hi. The fuse box is in opposite direction of the diagram but the one I am pointing to says it goes in 09 and it is labeled 15A RR wiper.
 

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Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
Hi. The fuse box is in opposite direction of the diagram but the one I am pointing to says it goes in 09 and it is labeled 15A RR wiper.
Slightly off topic but this relay that I'm pointing to gets pretty warm to the touch but not hot that I've noticed. Sign of relay going bad or do they get warm? Asking because others seem significantly cooler while this one feels warm.
 

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aaserv

Member
Dec 1, 2019
408
N of Baton Rouge, La.
It does look like someone replaced the fuse for the wipers with a breaker. Usually this is because of a short in the wiring although other things could cause it also. It was probably at the time it was installed an intermittent problem that has increased in frequency over time. I would pull the breaker out completely at this point until the problem is found and repaired. If for example the problem is the wiper motor bearings are bad and the motor is pulling high amps it will eventually burn wires and connectors with repeated resetting of the breaker. Breakers are ONLY used during the repair process and should not be left in permanently.

As far as the relay getting warm, I think that is for the running lights so its feeding pretty much anytime the key is on and would therefore be warm to the touch . Nothing to worry about...
 

Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
It does look like someone replaced the fuse for the wipers with a breaker. Usually this is because of a short in the wiring although other things could cause it also. It was probably at the time it was installed an intermittent problem that has increased in frequency over time. I would pull the breaker out completely at this point until the problem is found and repaired. If for example the problem is the wiper motor bearings are bad and the motor is pulling high amps it will eventually burn wires and connectors with repeated resetting of the breaker. Breakers are ONLY used during the repair process and should not be left in permanently.

As far as the relay getting warm, I think that is for the running lights so its feeding pretty much anytime the key is on and would therefore be warm to the touch . Nothing to worry about...
Okay. Ignorant follow-up question here. Are the other breakers that are in this fuse box supposed to be there? I'm not sure if the breaker information is specific to just this 15 amp one, and by the way I do have issues with the rear wiper drawing excessive power and not always functioning. I will remove that breaker. If you could clarify if the other breakers should be there or if those were potentially put in due to an issue, that would be great.
 

aaserv

Member
Dec 1, 2019
408
N of Baton Rouge, La.
Im not an expert on electrical but as far as I know no breakers should be in the box. It sounds like the owner before you hated buying fuses and when 1 blew he replaced it with a breaker. That in itself is not a bad thing but again if your having to constantly reset any of them then its just covering up an underlying problem and the problem will surely only get bigger.
 

Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
Good to know because I have definite electrical issues that I have been working on so if those breakers aren't actually supposed to be there and I dig further into the function of them, that may actually help me start finding my problem.
 
Dec 5, 2011
574
Central Pennsylvania
My underseat fuse box looks identical to yours. I have breakers in the same places. I think this is a red herring. I have a 2002 Bravada for what it's worth. If later years don't have breakers, then there was a change. My 15 amp breaker "rocks" in the socket ever so slightly as you describe yours does. If you're having occasional rear wiper motor issues, I'd first check the wiring harness from the hatch to the body - at the top of the hatch (hatch open) there's a rubber conduit with wires in it. The conduit can be removed from both sides without cutting anything. Check the condition of the wires in that "boot" and back towards the inside of the vehicle under the headliner a few inches. I had to repair mine when my rear wipers would act up intermittently and occasionally my remote entry wouldn't work. The other thing to check would be the wiper motor itself. I can't help you there as I've not had to remove or mess with it.
 
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budwich

Member
Jun 16, 2013
2,027
kanata
A quick look at 2002 GM SI, the location is a breaker. I wouldn't expect it to be warm unless you are using your rear wiper alot. Disconnect the rear wiper and see what happens at the breaker. The schematic does not show anything else (at least in 2002) on that fuse.... so again, if you aren't using your rear wiper it should be cold.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,262
Ottawa, ON
Slightly off topic but this relay that I'm pointing to gets pretty warm to the touch but not hot that I've noticed. Sign of relay going bad or do they get warm? Asking because others seem significantly cooler while this one feels warm.
That relay is for the parking lamps. If they are coming on, it could get slightly warm-ish since all the parking lights' power goes through it. If they're working correctly, it's probably fine.

The breakers that are there are correct. As mentioned, it's a red herring.

For the rear wiper not functioning well, it's likely getting stiff from corrosion and non-use. You might be able to get it back. Put the breaker back in, turn it on to 3 (steady), go the wiper and help it gently with your hand while putting a penetrating oil like PB Blaster on the post while it's moving. Repeat until it moves freely on its own. I have saved some doing this. You might have to remove the wiper arm itself to get the oil in well to free it up. If it's still moving a bit, it's still salvageable.

c2668ea7-212f-4635-b4ca-280b99787418-jpeg.94001
 

Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
A quick look at 2002 GM SI, the location is a breaker. I wouldn't expect it to be warm unless you are using your rear wiper alot. Disconnect the rear wiper and see what happens at the breaker. The schematic does not show anything else (at least in 2002) on that fuse.... so again, if you aren't using your rear wiper it should be cold.
I think there was a misunderstanding with how I posted. The 15 amp breaker doesn't get warm. It pops out. The relay is what gets warm and I point to that in a different photo. I was informed that the relay would naturally get warm when lights are on all the time. I'm no longer worried about that. :smile:
 
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Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
My underseat fuse box looks identical to yours. I have breakers in the same places. I think this is a red herring. I have a 2002 Bravada for what it's worth. If later years don't have breakers, then there was a change. My 15 amp breaker "rocks" in the socket ever so slightly as you describe yours does. If you're having occasional rear wiper motor issues, I'd first check the wiring harness from the hatch to the body - at the top of the hatch (hatch open) there's a rubber conduit with wires in it. The conduit can be removed from both sides without cutting anything. Check the condition of the wires in that "boot" and back towards the inside of the vehicle under the headliner a few inches. I had to repair mine when my rear wipers would act up intermittently and occasionally my remote entry wouldn't work. The other thing to check would be the wiper motor itself. I can't help you there as I've not had to remove or mess with it.
Okay. It's my understanding that while the breaker was removed, no harm has been done and that clarification here has said it should be a breaker and not a fuse so I will put it back in but I am wondering if maybe I need a new one since it is always coming loose and that's what I am troubleshooting next. I am aware of the wiring issue in the boot from a different thread where I had posted about electrical issues so I intend on tackling that also. Thanks much!! :smile:
 

Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
That relay is for the parking lamps. If they are coming on, it could get slightly warm-ish since all the parking lights' power goes through it. If they're working correctly, it's probably fine.

The breakers that are there are correct. As mentioned, it's a red herring.

For the rear wiper not functioning well, it's likely getting stiff from corrosion and non-use. You might be able to get it back. Put the breaker back in, turn it on to 3 (steady), go the wiper and help it gently with your hand while putting a penetrating oil like PB Blaster on the post while it's moving. Repeat until it moves freely on its own. I have saved some doing this. You might have to remove the wiper arm itself to get the oil in well to free it up. If it's still moving a bit, it's still salvageable.

c2668ea7-212f-4635-b4ca-280b99787418-jpeg.94001
Boy do I feel stupid because lubrication should be one of the first things that came to mind but of course it didn't since I'm in such a whirlwind on all of my other motor/electrical related issues. LOL I'll definitely attempt that in case it's an easy fix!
 

Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
Im not an expert on electrical but as far as I know no breakers should be in the box. It sounds like the owner before you hated buying fuses and when 1 blew he replaced it with a breaker. That in itself is not a bad thing but again if your having to constantly reset any of them then its just covering up an underlying problem and the problem will surely only get bigger.
It sounds like maybe I should have a breaker there so it's one of those things where each vehicle just has its little nuances I guess. I'll be solving the popping issue one way or another! :wink:
 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
Hi. The fuse box is in opposite direction of the diagram but the one I am pointing to says it goes in 09 and it is labeled 15A RR wiper.

Weird!! My 2002 (build date 10/2001) looks different in both the actual fuseblock and the legend. There is nothing in #9 and the legend has an X there! Hence my curiosity.
 

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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,262
Ottawa, ON
The 15 amp breaker doesn't get warm. It pops out.
So you mean it comes out of the fuseblock socket? Is it too easy to pull out? Maybe the socket connectors' metal fingers got hot, especially if the wiper motor is stiff and pulling max amps. That could have weakened the fingers in the socket. One trick is to give the fuse or breaker tangs a little twist so the fingers grab them a bit better.
 

Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
This issue is still a mystery for me as to why that one leg lifts. To be safe, I have pulled the breaker which seems to be responsible for the rear wiper which I don't need at this point anyway since vehicles were able to run without that fancy function at one point in time LOL maybe I'm wrong in my thinking but I left it out because I didn't want to risk anything overheating and melting any wires etc from any type of poor connection.
 
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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,262
Ottawa, ON
It could just be that the wiper motor is jammed and overheating the breaker. If you're OK with no rear wiper, you can certainly leave the breaker out.
 
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Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
I have another thread about my modules failing with an accompanied front fuse block burning smell and I referred to this post in it. At this time, my lifting breaker has transitioned from rear fuse box to being lifting relays in the front fuse box with daily fire smell so I'm fairly certain I'm going to be done with it. I don't have a resolution to say worked for me so I guess this can be closed out. As I posted in my other thread, I'm waving my white flag as opposed to starting on fire driving down the road.
Thanks for all the help. I know I could attempt replacing fuse blocks but I'm not sure that's the smartest safest option right now so I'm at a stand still and deciding what to do. I have what I need from this post though and I thank you all.
 
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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,262
Ottawa, ON
That is a shame with all the work you put into it. Just bad luck in getting such a basket case. A burning smell would be quite disconcerting.
 

mrrsm

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Oct 22, 2015
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Before you decide to finally Toss In The Towel...

Whenever a circuit containing uniquely Copper Wiring or Fittings encounters either High Resistance or an actual Short Circuit… the Principle of “PTC” reveals some interesting behavior as a “Positive Thermal Co-Efficient” by converting the Electrical Energy within the Copper Wiring-Components into HEAT Energy.

The implication is that by using a fairly inexpensive Infrared Thermal Camera, you should be able to scan the areas on, around and adjacent to ANY Module in the Dark of Night and clearly observe the offending Circuit and or narrow down which offending Module, Wire Bundle or Connectors are involved in this issue:

For more information, Check Out Post#s 740 & 741 in the “Tool Talk” Thread:

https://gmtnation.com/forums/threads/tool-talk.10781/page-19

You should SEE What You’re Missing… :>)

https://www.moderntiredealer.com/ar...-a-powerful-diagnostic-tool-is-now-affordable
 
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Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
Before you decide to finally Toss In The Towel...

Whenever a circuit containing uniquely Copper Wiring or Fittings encounters either High Resistance or an actual Short Circuit… the Principle of “PTC” reveals some interesting behavior as a “Positive Thermal Co-Efficient” by converting the Electrical Energy within the Copper Wiring-Components into HEAT Energy.

The implication is that by using a fairly inexpensive Infrared Thermal Camera, you should be able to scan the areas on, around and adjacent to ANY Module in the Dark of Night and clearly observe the offending Circuit and or narrow down which offending Module, Wire Bundle or Connectors are involved in this issue:

For more information, Check Out Post#s 740 & 741 in the “Tool Talk” Thread:

https://gmtnation.com/forums/threads/tool-talk.10781/page-19

You should SEE What You’re Missing… :>)

https://www.moderntiredealer.com/ar...-a-powerful-diagnostic-tool-is-now-affordable
I cannot wait to look into this before giving up. No guarantees I'll be able to understand and use it but here's hoping. You have no idea the insane amount of drastic difference that happens with how good this thing drives to the sudden "crap box have to pull over" that it becomes in the middle of a trip.
I really thought fixing my obvious bad grounds, addressing the power steering issue, replacing bad harnesses, fixing my air in the coolant line situation and replacing solenoids and sensors while having gaskets replaced etc was going to make this the dream I imagined it to be and instead it just continues to get worse. I have enough cuts bruises and broken fingernails to make someone think I was just in a jail fight and it could be all for nothing so I will be looking into your posted information. I truly appreciate the glimmer of hope.
 
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Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
For anyone still seeing any of these posts, opinion needed. The guy I bought this from is about 20 minutes away. I 100% understand when you buy a used vehicle you often buy someone else's problem so I am not in any way angry with the sellers. Is it out of line or too tacky to stop over at their house, I don't have their phone number, and simply ask for any pointers as far as maybe some maintenance or repairs he did that could point me in a direction as long as I'm clear about the fact I'm not upset with them in any way? I'm literally just trying to make what I bought better and if he can offer insight, I would love to talk to him. I don't want to offend him, but perhaps he'd be able to say oh yeah 3 years ago we had this or that and I did this or that to it so maybe check there etc etc.... According to him, he did most of the maintenance so I feel like it would be fair to ask him. Thoughts?
 

mrrsm

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Oct 22, 2015
7,641
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One additional advantage of having the Infrared Camera in hand as an Investigative Tool would improve your ability to identify any OVERHEATED COPs (COIL OVER PLUGS) that are Back-Feeding High Voltage from the Secondary Coils oscillating back into the Primary Coils and thus... Jacking Up their Temperature enough to cause a Sudden Engine Stall.

How can you "Spot" this phenomena? Simple. Remove the Air Plenum and Air Feed Tube from the Throttle Body. Then, while the engine is Idling... Point the IRC (Infra Red Camera) at the "TOPs of the COPs" and look for any particular ones that "Glow In The Dark" and RED HOT. Please DO NOT Touch any of these TOPS of the COPS ...as you can receive Blister Burns while doing so.

Some Insights into WHY this "Sudden Stalling" can happen:


This phenomena usually has a Cause and Origin stemming from any COP being exposed to WAY TOO MANY LEAN FIRING CONDITIONS... either due to Failed EFIs (Electronic Fuel Injectors), a Failing Fuel Pump or problems with Un-Regulated AIR sneaking past the Air Control Regulatory Sensors the PCM uses that include the MAF, MAP, IAT, Throttle Body, ACC Pedal AND Last But Not Least... The O2 Sensors. Such Lean Cylinder Conditions can create problems with Secondary Ignition Events to the point where the Spark Plugs are struggling to FIRE and wind up raising their Spark Plug Voltages to over 40,000 to 60,000 Volts!

COPs under stress with attempting to Fire a Secondary Coil Ignition Events always require a Proper Fuel To Air Atmosphere and have Compression Pressures within each Cylinder ...Just BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) and NOT put such a HUGE amount of STRESS upon the COPs to produce a Proper Spark. Engines suffering with Mis-Fires, or throwing excessive P0300-P0306 Random or Specific Cylinder Misfires are an invitation to suffering from SHORTED OUT COIL OVER PLUGS (COPs).

If you find any BLACK CARBON TRACING on ANY Spark Plugs...and determine that the COP is STILL Working... remember to replace the Small Metal Contact Coils inside the base of the COPs and also replace the Rubber Insulation Boots at the SAME Time . There WILL be Carbon Tracing on or inside of the COPs Boots if the Secondary Ignition Coils have been Back-Feeding High Voltage while seeking to get to Ground through The Path of Least Resistance oscillating and literally "Banging Back and Forth through the Primary Coils of the COPs."

This On Again-Off Again nature of this problem can occur when the COP Cools Down enough to allow the COPs to function and the Engine Starts and Runs Normally... and then later on Over Heat and start this Stalling Problem over and over again until the COPs finally completely fail.

Sorry for the Long Technical Tome...but this is a complicated problem that demands a deeper understanding. Remember to be suspicious of finding any Burnt Fuses in the COP Fuse Box Circuit if these other problems are also present. Replacing the COPS without dealing with the underlying LEAN FIRING Conditions will only lead to having to replace more COPs later on.
 
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Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
One additional advantage of having the Infrared Camera in hand as an Investigative Tool would improve your ability to identify any OVERHEATED COPs (COIL OVER PLUGS) that is Back-Feeding High Voltage from the Secondary Coil oscillating back into the Primary Coil and Jacking Up its Temperature enough to cause a Sudden Engine Stall.

How can you "Spot" this phenomena? Simple. Remove the Air Plenum and Air Feed Tube from the Throttle Body. Then, while the engine is Idling... Point the IRC (Infra Red Camera) at the "TOPs of the COPs" and look for any particular one that is "Glow In The Dark" HOT. Please DO NOT Touch any of these TOPS of the COPS ...as you can receive Blister Burns while doing so.

Some Insights into WHY this "Sudden Stalling" can happen:


This phenomena usually has a Cause and Origin stemming from any COP being exposed to WAY TOO MANY LEAN FIRING CONDITIONS... either due to Failed EFIs (Electronic Fuel Injectors), a Failing Fuel Pump or problems with Un-Regulated AIR sneaking past the Air Control Regulatory Sensors the PCM uses that include the MAF, MAP, IAT, Throttle Body, ACC Pedal AND Last But Not Least... The O2 Sensors. Lean Cylinder Conditions can create problems with Secondary Ignition Events to the point where the Spark Plugs are struggling to FIRE and wind up raising their Spark Plug Voltages to over 40,000 to 60,000 Volts!

COPs under stress with attempting to Fire a Secondary Coil Ignition Events always require a Proper Atmosphere and Compression Pressure within each Cylinder ...Just BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) and NOT put such a HUGE amount of STRESS upon the COPs to produce a Proper Spark. Engines suffering with Mis-Fires, or throwing excessive P0300-P0306 Random or Specific Cylinder Misfires are an invitation to suffering from SHORTED OUT COIL OVER PLUGS (COPs).

If you find any BLACK CARBON TRACING on ANY Spark Plugs...and determine that the COP is STILL Working... remember to replace the Small Metal Contact Coils inside the base of the COPs and also replace the Rubber Insulation Boots at the SAME Time . There WILL be Carbon Tracing on or inside of the COPs Boots if the Secondary Ignition Coil has been Back-Feeding High Voltage while seeking to get to Ground through the Path of Least Resistance oscillating and literally "Banging Back through the Primary Coils of the COPs."

This On Again-Off Again nature of this problem can occur when the COP Cools Down enough to allow the COPs to function and the Engine Starts and Runs Normally...and then later on Over Heat and start this Stalling Problem over and over again until the COPs finally completely fail.

Sorry for the Long Technical Tome...but this is a complicated problem that demands a deeper understanding.Remember to be suspicious of finding any Burnt Fuses in the COP Fuse Box Circuit if these other problems are present. Replacing the COPS without dealing with the underlying LEAN FIRING Conditions will only lead to having to replace more COPs later on
I actually appreciate the long in-depth technical information as opposed to more surface because once I took on the mindset that essentially a vehicle is a computer, I knew right there I was going to need more than just a surface level check this check that and more of an understanding of how things work together and why so I could truly troubleshoot.
 
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mrrsm

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Oct 22, 2015
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For a decent "Hands On" view of an Infrared Camera in action... Please observe Diagnose Dan using a High End Snap-On Hand-Held IR Unit to spot a "Cold Cylinder" in broad daylight (garage or shop ambient light) while he sorts out a Failed MOSFET Ignition Coil Driver Circuit inside of this vehicle's CPU. The Inexpensive IR Cameras can do the Very Same Jobs!

Dan's instructional videos are MUST WATCH items of information necessary for Modern "True Technicians" and Mechanics to understand if they REALLY want to be GOOD at what they DO. Also, if you watch this video from Start to Finish.. .take note of how he Uses the Infrared Camera at the end...TO UNEQUIVOCALLY PROVE OUT THE SUCCESS OF THIS REPAIR:


"When the Student is Ready... The Teacher Emerges..." Confucius

 
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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,262
Ottawa, ON
For anyone still seeing any of these posts, opinion needed. The guy I bought this from is about 20 minutes away. I 100% understand when you buy a used vehicle you often buy someone else's problem so I am not in any way angry with the sellers. Is it out of line or too tacky to stop over at their house, I don't have their phone number, and simply ask for any pointers as far as maybe some maintenance or repairs he did that could point me in a direction as long as I'm clear about the fact I'm not upset with them in any way? I'm literally just trying to make what I bought better and if he can offer insight, I would love to talk to him. I don't want to offend him, but perhaps he'd be able to say oh yeah 3 years ago we had this or that and I did this or that to it so maybe check there etc etc.... According to him, he did most of the maintenance so I feel like it would be fair to ask him. Thoughts?
You could do that. What do you have to lose? Just don't go with the TB as he might just lock the doors and turn off the lights if he sees it back in his driveway. I'm sure if you explain it to him, he would be fair enough to talk to you about it. I would suggest that you surreptitiously record the conversation, not for legal reasons, but to help you remember anything he might mention. Ask about everything as he might have done something unrelated that might be causing these issues, like removing a remote starter. Ask if it's ever been in a flood.

Speaking of that, it might be worthwhile to do a Carfax on it. If it's ever been in a flood or an accident, it might show up. A lot of shops and dealers add info to it so you might also find the last shop that worked on it.
 
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Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
You could do that. What do you have to lose? Just don't go with the TB as he might just lock the doors and turn off the lights if he sees it back in his driveway. I'm sure if you explain it to him, he would be fair enough to talk to you about it. I would suggest that you surreptitiously record the conversation, not for legal reasons, but to help you remember anything he might mention. Ask about everything as he might have done something unrelated that might be causing these issues, like removing a remote starter. Ask if it's ever been in a flood.

Speaking of that, it might be worthwhile to do a Carfax on it. If it's ever been in a flood or an accident, it might show up. A lot of shops and dealers add info to it so you might also find the last shop that worked on it.
Thanks for the opinion. I'm definitely going to consider it. I'm super charming in real life haha, I swear, so hopefully the conversation would go well lol. I did pull a Carfax before buying it and there was literally no history. Just showed two owners and the recent guy had it for many years. Other than when it sold and was registered, there were no reports or details for any accidents or even auto shops that have been to. That kind of made me nervous because I didn't have any check-in points before buying but I happened to drive it on a day it was performing well and fell in love. It is what it is. Looking forward to watching the video that was supplied. Thanks much!
 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
@Elizabetty

Have you ever heard of a "pin drag" test??

In a nutshell you test the tightness of any suspect fuse or relay socket by inserting a metal test strip that is precisely the same size and thickness as a fuse or relay terminal.

See if there is reasonable resistance to inserting and removing the test piece in the socket. There needs to be some good drag or the electrical connection will be inadequate, resulting in heat and/or an intermittent contact.

I have a few loose sockets in my own underhood fuseblock. The previous owner must have been chasing a no crank condition for some time because there were a couple of fuses circled in my fuseblock legend in the fuseblock cover !!

I just happen to have some metal sheeting the right size and I use that for many things.

I suppose one could take a blown (or new) fuse and snip or otherwise break it in half vertically so you then have a single terminal piece to put in a socket as a test piece?

It is important to test just one terminal at a time so you can really feel what sockets drag properly and what sockets are loose.
 

Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
I might be getting somewhere. I'm thinking the circuits I'm trying to check don't quite match my setup which is why I end up more confused than when I start a lot of the time. Maybe that's just my excuse LOL

I found a website that shows the rear fuse box for an EXT. It looks like mine, including the additional relay spot which is empty. As a reminder, I do not have an EXT.

In my owner's manual, the rear fuse box should be blank in slot 9 where I have the 15 amp circuit breaker. I have to have something in that spot in order to have a rear wiper working regardless of what my manual says. The 15 amp circuit breaker does still lift on one side which is essentially I think a signal that if it were a fuse, it would blow. I need to be looking into the circuit.

In the link below, there are date spans listed in the different descriptions for fuses. Some of them are short-lived. Fuse 9 in the standard wheelbase picture is "blank" for 2002-2003, but is the rear wiper in 2003-2009. Sometime in 2003, a change was made? My build is 05/02. So perhaps in May of 2002, they were already creating fuse blocks for 2003 and it was used in my 02 model? That tells me I need to be using 2003 wiring diagrams. The vehicle itself is going to be wired as SWB despite the fuse block being EXT right? Just not matching 2002...

Moving into the liftgate module, that's another fuse that seems to have changed location. Spot 6 is listed as LGM 2002-2003 and then "blank" 2004 to 2009. Slot 19 shows 2002-2003 "blank" and 2003-2009 LGM. Now I run into crossover again in 2003. I have voltage to both fuses. I have not taken apart the fuse box to see where the wires are actually running from. Is it safe to assume that if I'm set up for 2003 rear wiper wiring that I am also set up for 2003 liftgate and radio etc or is it possible I am piecemealed together as a combination and I'm going to have to work the 2 years side by side? The circuits sometimes change from year to year and I want to be able to troubleshoot an entire circuit. As long as I'm wired for short wheelbase, then I would think the EXT box doesn't matter but I have to know how my circuits are run together as well as harness wiring changes (I struggle to match diagrams to my connectors) and clearly I'm not matching 2002 information I'm finding online as a default or general overview. Things tend to be close but not quite.


I can't help but wonder about the people that say their rear wiper has never worked and they own a 2002 if it's because they're looking in their manual, seeing "blank" and not knowing there was a change and they may need to have a circuit breaker in slot 9 to have any power to the rear wiper, depending on the timing of build of course.

I've added a picture of the wiring from a 2002 diagram which does happen to list the 15 amp circuit breaker so it must be later in production but you'll see the wire from that continues listing long wheelbase and the short wheelbase would actually have the lgm2 fuse involved. If I jump ahead to 2004, I don't see a split off. I'm not sure where I fall and what I need to be looking for with late 2002 / early 2003 and on.
 

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TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
In the link below, there are date spans listed in the different descriptions for fuses. Some of them are short-lived. Fuse 9 in the standard wheelbase picture is "blank" for 2002-2003, but is the rear wiper in 2003-2009. Sometime in 2003, a change was made? My build is 05/02. So perhaps in May of 2002, they were already creating fuse blocks for 2003 and it was used in my 02 model?

My build is 08/01 and I have the same fuseblock.

I have the aux power fuse removed and laying where the rear fog light relay would be if I had rear fog lights.

IMG_20200905_181042.jpg
 
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mrrsm

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Oct 22, 2015
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Tampa Bay Area
This Link takes you to a Nice Write-Up penned by @JerryIrons about Diagnosing the Lift-Gate - Wiper for any "Things That Go BUMP In The Night" ...with some additional close-up images of what might be causing that Relay to *Pop* on One Side (or cause the Fuse to Burn OUT):

 
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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,262
Ottawa, ON
BTW, the rear fog light is a Europe only thing. Over there, the taillights on TBs had amber turn signals and replaced one of the backup lights for the red fog light. Just to show how one fuse box was shared among different options and markets.
 
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Elizabetty

Original poster
Member
Dec 2, 2022
191
Wisconsin
Yep. I remember someone mentioning the Europe thing before. I'm not concerned with any functions with the fuse box itself. Just curious to understand changes like that when 2 ppl have the same vehicle from same year and somehow they "look different" at the electrical level. I'm also feeling pretty confident on what I'm doing with the liftgate. My main issue right now is actually the light socket or the wiring for the passenger side rear license plate bulb. I have my multimeter and more knowledge so I'll be tackling it soon. Anyway, I just find it interesting that the 2002 to 2003 changes happened so close together which threw me for a loop. It's like they started building these and then went oops that's probably not ideal so let's wire it this way now haha. I'm sure it may happen all the time or this is common knowledge to others but to me, if two people have the same year make model and trim, then it would be exactly the same when you start tearing them down. Turns out it's not. And like I said, for those that have a rear wiper that never worked and they keep looking at their manual cuz their buddy says "oh hey just check the fuse", it would likely benefit them to know that if a previous owner messed around in the fuse box at all for a common liftgate issue and took out the circuit breaker, the new owner would have no idea per their own manual that they need to put something in slot 9.

I was rather frustrated digging into the lift gate and wiper motor and headlight socket because people seem to have this common liftgate issue with a wire that suffers from the repeated opening and closing of the liftgate and here I sit with beautiful wiring and cannot find my issue so I have to keep moving further and further back through wires. This was during the time I was doing visual inspection only. I have a multimeter now. I'm sure it will be much easier now with the proper tools because as I've been told on this forum, you can't see electricity. :wink:
 

mrrsm

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Oct 22, 2015
7,641
Tampa Bay Area
THIS Member makes mention of observing his "License Plate Light Flickering", too... Perhaps there are some other *leads* to be found...herein:

 
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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,262
Ottawa, ON
The license lights often suffer from the green crusties and I have replaced several sockets because of that. Don't even try to remove the screws from the lenses as they will be rusted to nothing. You have to remove the license plate pocket and remove the sockets.
 
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Dec 5, 2011
574
Central Pennsylvania
The license lights often suffer from the green crusties and I have replaced several sockets because of that. Don't even try to remove the screws from the lenses as they will be rusted to nothing. You have to remove the license plate pocket and remove the sockets.
Without the benefit of that piece of advice, I've removed the lenses on 2 occasions over the past 10 years and they very nearly were impossible to remove both times. I doubt I'll try it again and instead opt for removing the pocket next time. I'll definitely be equipped with new sockets when I do so as they were close to nonexistent last time. Weatherproofing was not well done in this area, at all.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,262
Ottawa, ON
And adding some dielectric grease should also help extend the contacts.
 

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