NEED HELP Best way to lock flywheel for harmonic balancer replacement.

Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
Won't take much time, replacing harmonic balancer on my 4.2l 04 envoy 205k mi and keep hitting road blocks, mainly having to repeatedly buy/rent special flower tools/parts.

Either way, got down to removing the HB bolt and now I'm conflicted on how to remove it. I've heard jamming a prybar into the flywheel can work or grind the sh** outta your flywheel teeth.

Also seen where there is a hole in what I thought was the timing cover/oil pan? (I havent looked for the holes location under the envoy) with a 15mm deep socket w breaker and go that direction.


Or should I just leave that alone and go buy an air impact gun 1000lbs+?


Hopefully I can get a response today! First post luck mode engaged 👍🏻 Any other tips would be appreciated, and I have read several threads on HB replacement but didn't quite find what I was looking for, maybe I overlooked a few things, but lmk if you need any info or pics and I'll post em asap! Thanks.
 

TollKeeper

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Dec 3, 2011
8,045
Brighton, CO
I got my harmonic balancer bolt off with a Electric Craftsman Impact, and again with a Electric Rigid impact.

There are flywheel holder tools on the market. But I do not know if any of them have ever been designed for the 4.2.

There are specific tools for a flywheel holder, but they are expensive (160-300).

I dont know if a tool for the LS engines would work on this engine or not.

See if this thread helps you any..
 
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Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
Yeah I recently checked out that thread too but it's getting to the point to where I'm just going to go down to harbour freight and see what I can get. Worst case scenario I get an impact and return It. But I was just kind of messing with it and the crank seems to turn way too easy with crank pulley bolt still Torqued down. I have the fan clutch and Fan/shroud removed the belt was still on but The engine seemed to turn a lot easier than I would have expected. Thanks for your advice greatly appreciated
 

TollKeeper

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Dec 3, 2011
8,045
Brighton, CO
I was able to turn the crank bolt by hand with only a 3/8 ratchet. Its not until you get into really high compression, or diesels, that it would get hard, at least in my opinion.
 

Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
I got my harmonic balancer bolt off with a Electric Craftsman Impact, and again with a Electric Rigid impact.

There are flywheel holder tools on the market. But I do not know if any of them have ever been designed for the 4.2.

There are specific tools for a flywheel holder, but they are expensive (160-300).

I dont know if a tool for the LS engines would work on this engine or not.

See if this thread helps you any..
 

TollKeeper

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Dec 3, 2011
8,045
Brighton, CO
Link no workie
 
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TollKeeper

Supporting Donor
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Dec 3, 2011
8,045
Brighton, CO
I really dont have a recommendation for a impact. I like my Craftsman, and has served its purpose for MANY years. The Rigid has more power, but runs off a chuck, and being a impact, on a 1/2 inch socket.. The chuck shatters.

The newest to the market has been the Milwaukee, and has seen many praises for power, reliability.. But costs a pretty penny. They cost 250 without a battery or charger.

The next one is from Harbor Freight, Earthquake XT. Not a lot of reviews out there on them, other than the ones on the Harbor Freight website. My shop uses these to wrenching on Tractor Trailers. They do the job. They are also 280 bucks!
 

TollKeeper

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Dec 3, 2011
8,045
Brighton, CO
You might peruse thru this thread, some talk about impacts..
 

Timber531

Original poster
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Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
Awsome, greatly appreciated TollKeeper. I don't have a whole lot of money left over to spend, good thing my arm wore out before I could throw any more money at this engine.

And my neighbor came by to check out where I was at and he had mentioned it was easy to turn.
He knows a good bit about engines but never worked on Vortech 4200. I had my 24MM socket and a decent sized breaker bar but I doubt there would be much difficulty trying to use 3/8 ratchet by hand.
I don't have anything on before throttle body and fan clutch etc is all removed plus Front end is jacked up, I'm not sure if that Has any correlation to crank turning.

Im going to check that thread out now, I'm doubtful but hopefully I can find something at harbor freight or even home depot that can fit to why I don't have to remove the radiator. Afterwards I'll post how it goes. If you have any other tips or advice, I'll take any of it lol, thanks again toll.
 

TollKeeper

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Dec 3, 2011
8,045
Brighton, CO
If you are on a strict budget (arent we all LOL).. Dont forget to shop pawn shops. Thats where I bought my Craftsman, new in the box, for 1/3 of the price of new at sears.
 

mrrsm

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Oct 22, 2015
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The Most Direct Way to Restrain the Crankshaft if THE ENGINE IS INSTALLED IN THE SUV is to locate the Black Plastic Plug centered along the lower Oil Pan aft section adjacent the Center Flywheel Access Port for the Removal and Installation all of the Three Torque Converter Bolts (separated by 120 Degrees). After removing the Black Plastic Plug shown below, Rotate any one of those Three Torque Converter Bolts around in a Clockwise Motion until one TC Bolt Head can clearly be seen through the Hole leading through the back of the Crank-Case Oil Pan. Then, Insert a 15mm Deep Socket through that Hole over the TC Bolt Head with the Socket attached to a 1/2" Breaker Bar and rest the Bar Handle on the Ground so that the Flex-Plate (and thus the Crankshaft) CANNOT Turn in ANY Direction during the Crankshaft Bolt R&R Procedures.

You should avoid using an Impact Gun when removing the Crankshaft Bolt on any Atlas Vortec Engine if possible. Please opt instead for using an Impact Grade 1/2" Drive Socket sized for the Crankshaft Bolt Head along with a 1/2" Breaker Bar aided with a 1.5" X 3' Long Steel Water Pipe for leverage and SLOWLY unwind the Crankshaft Bolt Counter-Clockwise. Discard that Bolt. Obtain a Brand New One from either eBay or gmpartsdirect.com.The Old Harmonic Balancer will require replacing the Old GM Part# 12578073 Sealing Friction Washer (Placed upon the INSIDE of the Harmonic Balancer Center Snout) or by getting a New Harmonic Balancer Kit as GM GENUINE Part# 12578069 (This Kit Includes the GM Part# 12578073 WASHER) and requires the Seal Kit Part# 89017622).

K&M Part# EN-48034 Harmonic Balancer Installation Tool Kit will be required to get the Harmonic Balancer installed onto the Crankshaft PRIOR to installing a Brand New Bolt. Do NOT attempt to use either the Old or New HB Bolt to get the HB installed as it will Damage the Threads and Ruin the Crankshaft.

In the case where the Engine is Mounted on an Engine Stand, you should pull out the Black Plastic Plug and Pass a Large Bolt through that location and fasten a Nut and Washer Combination in between the Hole through Flex-Plate where it aligns with the Hole through the Oil-Pan when the #1 Cylinder is positioned at Top Dead Center (TDC) AND the Small Timing Circle on the Crankshaft Cog is at the 4-5 O'clock Position. Tighten them together GENTLY and snugly enough so as NOT to Damage either the Aluminum Crankcase OR Warp the Flex-Plate.

This action will prevent the Flex-Plate (and thus... the Crankshaft) from Rotating either Clockwise or Counter-Clockwise during the TTY Crankshaft Bolt Tightening Sequence. These images show where that Oil-Pan Port Black Plastic Plug is located. Please remember to Remove the Bolt, Nut and Washer Restraining Combo as soon as the Crankshaft Bolt TTY work is completed as follows:

After properly performing the Installation of the Harmonic Balancer:

(A) Purchase a Brand New GM Part# 11609792 TTY HB Bolt from eBay or gmpartsdirect.com

(B) After first restraining the Flex-Plate as per the above Instructions , Tighten the New HB TTY Bolt into the Crankshaft Snout and use 110 Foot Pounds of Torque on the First Pass.

(C) Then, PAINT A WHITE VERTICAL REFERENCE LINE ON THE BOLT FACE that crosses onto the adjacent upper Timing Cover. Then, using a ½” Deep Socket and a ½” Breaker Bar to Rotate the TTY Crankshaft Bolt another 180 Degrees (FROM the 12:00 position TO the 6:00 position in a Clockwise Direction) to achieve the Final TTY …and STOP.
 

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Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
Sorry for taking so long to reply guys, just getting back to town and haven't had much time to get online. Thanks for all the replies though, glad I read all the info, really appreciate it.


about to get started but now a lil hesitant, just wanna get it done and get it done right the first time. Ik I'm probably going to need a few more things and was gonna start with finding the black plug mentioned above.


But I did go and get a 20v max xr impact from home depot last week, 1200ft lbs of merican nut bustin' torque, Unfortunately it didn't hold up.. idk much about impacts, but never seen one act like it did.. so, I'm pretty sure it was gone. But I did order a replacement and it was here waiting for me.


And as far as not using the impact, I'm really hoping the reason you shouldnt do so is why I was having problems w my impact, I wouldn't say it's stripped, but def. Has stress marks. Looks like the vertices were pressed to a point. Hope I didn't f*** up. I'll add some images.


And I do have a 15mm deep impact socket & breaker bar that ill go ahead and try out, if you guys are able to reply before I'm able to get back to work, any tips/tricks to any of these steps?


And what is the consequences of using an impact? I'm not disagreeing with ya, just would like to know if I could continue with; it? And why is the hb installer kit so expensive for a bolt and a few washers? Would I be able to go to a hardware store and make my own for a fraction of the price? I got a rental from autozone but the guys up there aren't the best and brightest and pretty sure it's completely the wrong set. I'll include pics of all tools/kits I've bought/rented (And I'm on an increasingly tight budget atm, the impact and all other specific tools/kits more than likely are gonna be returned after the job) but I really need to get this envoy up and going asap!


And as for the case relearn, (I read the process listed but so damn tired rn my bad if it was already mentioned) is there any way to avoid dealership? I have a buddy w one of the pricey scan tools but not sure I'd its something only gm specific computers have. I've never had my hands on a scan tool like that.


I'll go ahead and post pics of all tools, kits, and parts. Ik some are pretty irrelevant, but don't wanna leave anything out I might be able to use that I'm not aware of. Lmk if there is Anything I'm missing or could have to make the process run smoothly.


Thanks again guys, please school me on anything I seem to be missing or not understanding, I don't get butthurt from criticism. But I'll get on later today to check. Glad I came to gmtnation!

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mrrsm

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Please elaborate about WHY you feel the need to R&R The Harmonic Balancer as there are other specific Threads available that can help to deal with any other specific issues as things progress.

To answer your Questions about whether or not it is wise to use an Impact Gun to Remove "The Jesus Bolt" from the nose of the Crankshaft:

(1) The GM Atlas LL8 4.2L In-Line (6) Cylinder Engine sports an EXTREMELY LONG Crankshaft that is made from Nodular Iron (CORRECTION comes courtesy of @Reprise) unlike the completely ordinary method of Melting Pig Iron and Sand-Casting the Crank inside of such a Mold like the the Crankshafts of Old have been made. The LL8 Crankshaft IS Strong but not nearly as Strong as having a Crankshaft formed using the the Drop Forging Method on a Pure, Red Hot Steel Blank or by means of a CAD Machined piece of Cold Billet Steel. EDIT: Friday, June 18th, 2021

(2) All of the Vibrational Forces being created by the ever increasing speed of rotating the Mass of the Rotating Assembly (Pistons, Rods and Crankshaft) occurring within the GM Atlas LL8 4.2L In-Line (6) Cylinder Engine transmit that Energy with greater and greater amplitude ...LONGITUDINALLY. So the ONLY thing keeping that recombination of Excessive Vibrations from tearing the Motor apart... is the perfect mating of the Two Part Elastomeric Harmonic Balancer to the Nose of the Crankshaft. Using Heavy Hammer Strikes or the forces imparted when using an Impact Gun can serve to "De-Tune" the Crankshaft, Stretch the Internal Threads and ultimately interrupt or change how those Vibrations are mitigated in all ranges of RPM. You will never find any mention of "Use an Impact Gun" when performing the R&R of a Harmonic Balancer in any GM Service Manual for this very reason.

(3) In cases where an Impact Gun with Great Power is used on "The Jesus Bolt" for Harmonic Balancers that WILL be re-used (not in your case) the sudden, jarring forces imparted by the Gun can damage the Bonding of the Elastomeric Material in between the inner and outer sections of aged Harmonic Balancers ...causing the more massive Outer Ring to slip and fail. The other consideration is to remember that TTY Bolts are S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-D and left under Tension during their OEM installations and behave to some extent like "Metal Rubber-Bands", thus fighting against Impact Gun strikes during the removal process.

(4) The worst thing that can happen now, is to wind up further Damaging the The Hex Flats on that in-dwelling HB Bolt and then have to DRILL IT OUT to make any further progress. Right Now... In addition to everything I mentioned in Post #13... Your Very Best Friend will emerge once you obtain and use a 1.5" x 3' Long Galvanized Steel Plumbing Pipe slipped over the sturdiest 1/2" Breaker Bar you've got in your Tool Chest fitted with a Brand New Impact Grade Deep Socket that marries with the Old Harmonic Balancer-Crankshaft Bolt as snugly as possible... and just LEAN INTO the Pull as a Slow, Steady and Deliberate Force... and THAT Bolt WILL Yield.
 
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Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
Ok, I know you're extremely educated on the subject, but if you could simplify the answer, I'd appreciate it. Absolutely no insult meant by that, but just so I know I don't misinterpret your answer. Plus taking that in with my 2yo son at my side shoving his dinosaur in my ear, I had to read about 5x lol

What I got from that, was that they made the crankshaft differently than normal and it's weaker and will absorb the vibrations more and transfer that energy to the rest of the engine? Or I'd snap it off and be f***ed?

I really just need to get it off asap, tbh. I'm not underestimating your advice or anything, but I've heard of several people successfully using the impact and I went out and bought a $350 impact just for this specific nut. I'm in no shape to loose this vehicle either, it's the family ride and we only have a few more days with a friends car. Plus my car is down with transmission issues 😪 so I'm not going to just brush off warnings against using the impact. But just wanted to make sure its somewhat common to cause failures in the crank, engine, or anything else.

And the HB has a pretty decent wobble to it, and some gnarly engine vibrations to go with it, I've replaced a bunch of parts from suspension to motor mounts, and yes I did get aftermarket mounts and several other aftermarket parts. But it's more trial and error. At this point, I have read live data to make sure my am parts aren't faulty but this does seem to be the issue at hand. I'm not going to say I'm positive, but the glove seems to fit.

Also, do I have the right seal for the hb? And what is the cheapest option for the Installer?


Thanks.
 

Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
Please elaborate about WHY you feel the need to R&R The Harmonic Balancer as there are other specific Threads available that can help to deal with any other specific issues as things progress.

To answer your Questions about whether or not it is wise to use an Impact Gun to Remove "The Jesus Bolt" from the nose of the Crankshaft:

(1) The GM Atlas LL8 4.2L In-Line (6) Cylinder Engine sports an EXTREMELY LONG Crankshaft that is made from Sintered Powdered Iron. Unlike the completely ordinary method of Melting Pig Iron and Sand-Casting the Crank inside of such a Mold like the the Crankshafts of Old have been made... Instead, Sintering uses Extreme Heat and Pressure to bind the Powdered Metal Particles together WITHOUT MELTING THEM. This makes for better uniformity in the resulting form of the Crankshaft... but it is not nearly as Strong as either a Crankshaft formed by the the Drop Forging Method on a Pure, Red Hot Steel Blank ...or by means of a CAD Machined piece of Cold Billet Steel.

(2) All of the Vibrational Forces being created by the ever increasing speed of rotating the Mass of the Rotating Assembly (Pistons, Rods and Crankshaft) occurring within the GM Atlas LL8 4.2L In-Line (6) Cylinder Engine transmit that Energy with greater and greater amplitude ...LONGITUDINALLY. So the ONLY thing keeping that recombination of Excessive Vibrations from tearing the Motor apart... is the perfect mating of the Two Part Elastomeric Harmonic Balancer to the Nose of the Crankshaft. Using Heavy Hammer Strikes or the forces imparted when using an Impact Gun can serve to "De-Tune" the Crankshaft, Stretch the Internal Threads and ultimately interrupt or change how those Vibrations are mitigated in all ranges of RPM. You will never find any mention of "Use an Impact Gun" when performing the R&R of a Harmonic Balancer in any GM Service Manual for this very reason.

(3) In cases where an Impact Gun with Great Power is used on "The Jesus Bolt" for Harmonic Balancers that WILL be re-used (not in your case) the sudden, jarring forces imparted by the Gun can damage the Bonding of the Elastomeric Material in between the inner and outer sections of aged Harmonic Balancers ...causing the more massive Outer Ring to slip and fail. The other consideration is to remember that TTY Bolts are S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-D and left under Tension during their OEM installations and behave to some extent like "Metal Rubber-Bands", thus fighting against Impact Gun strikes during the removal process.

(4) The worst thing that can happen now, is to wind up Damaging the The Hex Flats on that in-dwelling HB Bolt and then have to DRILL IT OUT to make any further progress. Right Now... In addition to everything I mentioned in Post #13... Your Very Best Friend will emerge once you obtain and use a 1.5" x 3' Long Galvanized Steel Plumbing Pipe slipped over the sturdiest 1/2" Breaker Bar you've got in your Tool Chest fitted with a Brand New Impact Grade Deep Socket that marries with the Old Harmonic Balancer-Crankshaft Bolt as snugly as possible... and just LEAN INTO the Pull as a Slow, Steady and Deliberate Force... and THAT Bolt WILL Yield.
Also m
Please elaborate about WHY you feel the need to R&R The Harmonic Balancer as there are other specific Threads available that can help to deal with any other specific issues as things progress.

To answer your Questions about whether or not it is wise to use an Impact Gun to Remove "The Jesus Bolt" from the nose of the Crankshaft:

(1) The GM Atlas LL8 4.2L In-Line (6) Cylinder Engine sports an EXTREMELY LONG Crankshaft that is made from Sintered Powdered Iron. Unlike the completely ordinary method of Melting Pig Iron and Sand-Casting the Crank inside of such a Mold like the the Crankshafts of Old have been made... Instead, Sintering uses Extreme Heat and Pressure to bind the Powdered Metal Particles together WITHOUT MELTING THEM. This makes for better uniformity in the resulting form of the Crankshaft... but it is not nearly as Strong as either a Crankshaft formed by the the Drop Forging Method on a Pure, Red Hot Steel Blank ...or by means of a CAD Machined piece of Cold Billet Steel.

(2) All of the Vibrational Forces being created by the ever increasing speed of rotating the Mass of the Rotating Assembly (Pistons, Rods and Crankshaft) occurring within the GM Atlas LL8 4.2L In-Line (6) Cylinder Engine transmit that Energy with greater and greater amplitude ...LONGITUDINALLY. So the ONLY thing keeping that recombination of Excessive Vibrations from tearing the Motor apart... is the perfect mating of the Two Part Elastomeric Harmonic Balancer to the Nose of the Crankshaft. Using Heavy Hammer Strikes or the forces imparted when using an Impact Gun can serve to "De-Tune" the Crankshaft, Stretch the Internal Threads and ultimately interrupt or change how those Vibrations are mitigated in all ranges of RPM. You will never find any mention of "Use an Impact Gun" when performing the R&R of a Harmonic Balancer in any GM Service Manual for this very reason.

(3) In cases where an Impact Gun with Great Power is used on "The Jesus Bolt" for Harmonic Balancers that WILL be re-used (not in your case) the sudden, jarring forces imparted by the Gun can damage the Bonding of the Elastomeric Material in between the inner and outer sections of aged Harmonic Balancers ...causing the more massive Outer Ring to slip and fail. The other consideration is to remember that TTY Bolts are S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-D and left under Tension during their OEM installations and behave to some extent like "Metal Rubber-Bands", thus fighting against Impact Gun strikes during the removal process.

(4) The worst thing that can happen now, is to wind up Damaging the The Hex Flats on that in-dwelling HB Bolt and then have to DRILL IT OUT to make any further progress. Right Now... In addition to everything I mentioned in Post #13... Your Very Best Friend will emerge once you obtain and use a 1.5" x 3' Long Galvanized Steel Plumbing Pipe slipped over the sturdiest 1/2" Breaker Bar you've got in your Tool Chest fitted with a Brand New Impact Grade Deep Socket that marries with the Old Harmonic Balancer-Crankshaft Bolt as snugly as possible... and just LEAN INTO the Pull as a Slow, Steady and Deliberate Force... and THAT Bolt WILL Yield.
Also mrrsm, did all of my parts check out to be correct? I'm not so trustworthy of Amazon atm, bought counterfeit plugs and heard of several other incidents.

And I'm about to go and start trying to lock the flywheel like you had suggested, but again, if there's any angle that It would seem ok for me to use that Impact lmk! Lol

And if there are any links you have for the installer or anything else you think I might need, it'd be greatly appreciated

Thanks 👍🏻
 

Reprise

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Just an FYI... in addition to needing to immobilize the crank to *loosen* the balancer / crank bolt, you're going to need to immobilize it when installing / torqueing the new replacement bolt down.

I bought a tool on Amazon for my LS for about $20 -- it installs in place of the starter, and keeps the flexplate / crank in place (A/T terminology; 'flywheels' are technically M/T vehicles)

If you have a minute, check my build thread out, HERE -- I show the tool, and describe it a bit. Post #8 has the info. If you need me to measure the teeth / gap between, to see if it would fit your 4.2L flexplate, hit me back. I think it *will*, to be honest, but I'll admit I'm guessing. You'll also need to see if it fits the starter mount, on your block.

You'll also see me using a HF electric impact on the bolt (Bauer), but I'm pretty sure the 6.0L crank isn't sintered, as was mentioned above (I know mine is nodular iron, and cast, but considered pretty strong). So I won't advise you to either use / not use an impact. The 4.2L crank is longer than the LS crank, probably by a foot or so -- that may / may not affect whether it was made any stronger than the 6.0L LS crank.

If you want to get the bolt off without an impact, you're going to need the appropriate sized socket (mine was a 24mm), a 1/2" drive breaker bar, a length of pipe (minimum 18-24") to go over / extend the length of the breaker bar, and a HELL of a lot of strength to loosen it. Sometimes going in the opposite (tightening) direction, once you get started, can help break the torque (I also describe this)

To tighten it back on, you're going to need a torque wrench with at least as much tightening torque as the spec calls for on the 4.2L (on the LS engines, it's about 225 ft-lb or so, using a NON-Torque-to-Yield, or reusable ARP-type bolt). Again, eat your spinach (and don't forget to re-immobilize the flexplate, of course).
 
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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
And as for the case relearn, (I read the process listed but so damn tired rn my bad if it was already mentioned) is there any way to avoid dealership? I have a buddy w one of the pricey scan tools but not sure I'd its something only gm specific computers have. I've never had my hands on a scan tool like that.
It can be done with most high end scan tools. If your buddy's scanner can't do it, a lot of independent shops can.
 

mrrsm

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Oct 22, 2015
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Sorry about the long elaboration... But in the simplest terms:

(1) The Reason that your initial efforts failed to nudge the Crank Bolt Loose even a smidgen was because ALL of the Energy of the Impact Gun's Inner Anvil Strikes were being absorbed by the Unsecured Crankshaft ...and thus, it only succeeded in Damaging the Facing Flats of the Old Bolt Hex ...like a Boxer using his Left Jab. Think of it as though your were trying to "Jump Start" your Motor right through the resistance everything that is attached to the Crankshaft ...eating up those "Jabs" as Impact Strikes ...and falling well short of enough Torque to get the job done with a "Knock-Out PUNCH...". The Very Same Principles are at Play Here.

(2) You will ONLY require a Torrque Wrench that must achieve 110 Foot Pounds of Force because the Final Tightening of the New Crankshaft Bolt is literally accomplished by Marking the Bolt Head AND the Timing Cover with a White Paint Mark that runs VERTICAL across them both AFTER applying the initial 110 Foot Pounds during the First Pass. The SECOND Pass only requires Rotating the Bolt FROM the 12:00 Position...180 Degrees to the RIGHT TO the 6:00 Position. DONE! Please DO NOT USE YOUR BRAND NEW IMPACT GUN TO FINISH TIGHTENING THAT BOLT!

(3) Please visit THIS Link to my "Flickr-Bucket" New GM LL8 Parts Album (spend some time here after your present difficulties are dealt with and view ALL of the Albums available for additional GM 4.2L Engine Stuff) and make those Parts and Part Number comparisons against what you purchased on Amazon. The likelihood that anybody would invest the time and energy necessary to Create, Package and Sell Bogus 10.9 Hard GM Engine Crankshaft Fasteners and Harmonic Balancers is probably quite low. Just make certain the HB Part Numbers MATCH:


(4) There are TWO distinct sizes of the Crankshaft Oil Seal that demands "Miking" the Outer Diameter of the OLD Harmonic Balancer Outer Race AFTER you get it off the nose of the Crankshaft. Then, compare that measurement with the Inner Diameter of the Seal you purchases ...Just to be on the Safe Side. A Cheap Inside-Outside Caliper Micrometer will suffice for this Check.

(5) Finally... The reason for so much elaboration on this subject has to do with the Excessive Damage that has occurred to the Flats on the Old Hex Bolt areas that may have changed just how snug the OEM Size Impact Grade Socket will fit. You should ensure that WHATEVER the Tightest Fitting Metric Impact Socket you have available happens to work is THE One to be using once you begin trying to unwind that bolt. I've stressed NOT using an Impact Gun because of the Exxxxxtrordinary amount of efforts that have already been applied to that Poor Bolt... and failed to achieve results. Using the Right Socket along with a 1/2" Long Breaker Bar assisted with a Pipe Extension and a LOT of Elbow Grease AFTER securing the Flex-Plate to the Lower Crankcase with a 15mm Deep Socket and Long Breaker Bar is THE SAFEST way to go.

(6) If you do NOT get the chance to justify the purchase of that expensive Impact Gun in this situation using these more conservative (and proven) Methods, at least you'll have the opportunity later on to break loose the Wheel Lugs with it.... especially if you manage to get that Damned "Crankshaft Jesus Bolt" LOOSE without doing any Harm to the Motor.

(7) This Link takes you to a Specific Album at my "Flickr-Bucket" showing ALL of the Tools used in the R&R of the Harmonic Balancer:


The Least Expensive HB Installer Kit EN-48034 I could find was here on eBay @ around $50.00 everywhere else it is either More Expensive... or just not available:



"Less Haste... More Speed..."
 

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Timber531

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Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
So sorry I keep taking so long to reply guys, been a rough few days, custody battles with ex. 😓, but either way, thanks for all the input guys, I really appreciate it.

57187
As far as the crank bolt, I'm going to go ahead and to Lock the fly wheel since I'm going to have to lock it anyways for install. If anybody can get a response out tonight any tips or tricks and is there any specific way to pull the plug on the crank case?


Also for the installer tools I'll need, I got a set from autozone and it looks to have the threaded bolt I'll need but is that kit going to be able to do the job for the install? The part number for the kit I'm talking about is 57187.And if that won't do the job can I go to a local hardware store and find Something with similar thread and strength and just buy a few washers and nuts?I had seen on YouTube a guy make about 6 or 7 of them for $25.


I'll post progress as soon as I know where I'm at.


I don't remember to be having any issues with fan clutch or water pump but is that something that's going to need to be replacedOr can I get away with putting them back on?


Thanks guys,
Tim
 

Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
Sorry about the long elaboration... But in the simplest terms:

(1) The Reason that your initial efforts failed to nudge the Crank Bolt Loose even a smidgen was because ALL of the Energy of the Impact Gun's Inner Anvil Strikes were being absorbed by the Unsecured Crankshaft ...and thus, it only succeeded in Damaging the Facing Flats of the Old Bolt Hex ...like a Boxer using his Left Jab. Think of it as though your were trying to "Jump Start" your Motor right through the resistance everything that is attached to the Crankshaft ...eating up those "Jabs" as Impact Strikes ...and falling well short of enough Torque to get the job done with a "Knock-Out PUNCH...". The Very Same Principles are at Play Here.

(2) You will ONLY require a Torrque Wrench that must achieve 110 Foot Pounds of Force because the Final Tightening of the New Crankshaft Bolt is literally accomplished by Marking the Bolt Head AND the Timing Cover with a White Paint Mark that runs VERTICAL across them both AFTER applying the initial 110 Foot Pounds during the First Pass. The SECOND Pass only requires Rotating the Bolt FROM the 12:00 Position...180 Degrees to the RIGHT TO the 6:00 Position. DONE! Please DO NOT USE YOUR BRAND NEW IMPACT GUN TO FINISH TIGHTENING THAT BOLT!

(3) Please visit THIS Link to my "Flickr-Bucket" New GM LL8 Parts Album (spend some time here after your present difficulties are dealt with and view ALL of the Albums available for additional GM 4.2L Engine Stuff) and make those Parts and Part Number comparisons against what you purchased on Amazon. The likelihood that anybody would invest the time and energy necessary to Create, Package and Sell Bogus 10.9 Hard GM Engine Crankshaft Fasteners and Harmonic Balancers is probably quite low. Just make certain the HB Part Numbers MATCH:


(4) There are TWO distinct sizes of the Crankshaft Oil Seal that demands "Miking" the Outer Diameter of the OLD Harmonic Balancer Outer Race AFTER you get it off the nose of the Crankshaft. Then, compare that measurement with the Inner Diameter of the Seal you purchases ...Just to be on the Safe Side. A Cheap Inside-Outside Caliper Micrometer will suffice for this Check.

(5) Finally... The reason for so much elaboration on this subject has to do with the Excessive Damage that has occurred to the Flats on the Old Hex Bolt areas that may have changed just how snug the OEM Size Impact Grade Socket will fit. You should ensure that WHATEVER the Tightest Fitting Metric Impact Socket you have available happens to work is THE One to be using once you begin trying to unwind that bolt. I've stressed NOT using an Impact Gun because of the Exxxxxtrordinary amount of efforts that have already been applied to that Poor Bolt... and failed to achieve results. Using the Right Socket along with a 1/2" Long Breaker Bar assisted with a Pipe Extension and a LOT of Elbow Grease AFTER securing the Flex-Plate to the Lower Crankcase with a 15mm Deep Socket and Long Breaker Bar is THE SAFEST way to go.

(6) If you do NOT get the chance to justify the purchase of that expensive Impact Gun in this situation using these more conservative (and proven) Methods, at least you'll have the opportunity later on to break loose the Wheel Lugs with it.... especially if you manage to get that Damned "Crankshaft Jesus Bolt" LOOSE without doing any Harm to the Motor.

(7) This Link takes you to a Specific Album at my "Flickr-Bucket" showing ALL of the Tools used in the R&R of the Harmonic Balancer:


The Least Expensive HB Installer Kit EN-48034 I could find was here on eBay @ around $50.00 everywhere else it is either More Expensive... or just not available:



"Less Haste... More Speed..."
Thanks for the knowledge, definately appreciated, one question though, I had read from another fellas post on this thread and going up to remove the seal to get to the flywheel bolts to lock the flywheel up.

But it mentions that it is in the scenario of the engine being mounted an engine stand, is it also Able to be done with the engine in the bay as is??

Really need to hear from you guys asap! Gotta get this thing up to take my boy to see monster trucks for his first time tomorrow!

Thanks guys!
 

JayArr

Member
Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
I put the socket on the flywheel bolt head and took the HB bolt out with my impact gun, I've done it a few times now and had no problems. maybe I'm just lucky.

The "seal" is just a plastic plug that pops out with a flat screwdriver IIRC. Nothing complicated there.

The install kit is needed because when you first place the HB on the snout of the crank the bolt you'll use later isn't long enough to reach the threads. You use the long threaded install tool to push the HB onto the crank to a point where the TTY bolt can catch the threads and pull it into its final position.
 

Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
I put the socket on the flywheel bolt head and took the HB bolt out with my impact gun, I've done it a few times now and had no problems. maybe I'm just lucky.

The "seal" is just a plastic plug that pops out with a flat screwdriver IIRC. Nothing complicated there.

The install kit is needed because when you first place the HB on the snout of the crank the bolt you'll use later isn't long enough to reach the threads. You use the long threaded install tool to push the HB onto the crank to a point where the TTY bolt can catch the threads and pull it into its final position.
Did anything I have in the pics I posted have something I could use to install hb? And if not can I make a threaded instal tool at a local hardware store?
Thanks man, great info
 

JayArr

Member
Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
I didn't have anything from that first kit, I just pulled the bolt and used a regular puller, I don't remember it being too difficult.

I did need to get the second tool, the EN-48034, long threaded rod. You won't find that thread at any hardware store, I tried. It's quite the large diameter, it's metric and it's a very fine thread. I bought the tool.
 
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Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
Alright cool I'm guessing the dealership would have one but charge all the way out the a$$? Or if there's any way to get one today?
 

Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
Ok so I have the 15mm socket over the flywheel bolt and I'm worried when I go to break the hb bolt off, it's gonna tear a chunk out of my oil pan? Any input?
 

JayArr

Member
Sep 24, 2018
504
Mission BC Canada
It's through a hole in the casting right? You removed a plug and placed it through the hole onto the head of the flywheel bolt so that when the flywheel turns the socket jams in the aluminum casting and stops the rotation. That's what I did and the aluminum held, it's about 1/4" thick. You're putting a high force on the head of the HB bolt at the center of a circle but your holding it with a flywheel bolt that's 8 or 10 inches out from the center of the crank so there is leverage at play that reduces the force. It worked for me.

I don't know where you're going to get that threaded rod on a Sunday but here's an idea. The only portion of the rod that needs to have the fine metric thread is that last inch that threads deep into the crank. You could buy ordinary threaded rod at Lowes and cut a couple of inches off the old bolt you removed and weld it onto the Lowes rod. If you get the weld nice and straight the tool would now thread into the crank properly and you could use a nut and some washers to push the HB onto the snout and past the seal.

Here is the DANGER - if the weld breaks you'll have two inches of old bolt stuck in your crank that would need to be drilled out. This would really ruin your day.

PS: There are two types of HBs and the seals are different, have you made sure that you have the correct seal for the HB you are installing? There is lots of data on this site about it, you can put the later model HB on an earlier engine if you get the correct seal. IIRC the earlier type of HB isn't available anymore so you are forced to use the later type so make sure you get the seal for a later model engine.

Good Luck

JayArr
 
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mrrsm

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No. You will NOT Harm the Crankcase ...especially if you follow @JayArr 's very clever idea of inserting the Heavy Impact Gun as a Holding Tool for the 15mm Socket. The reason you will NOT Damage the Aluminum Oil Pan is because of the extreme distance that the Three Torque Converter Bolts are set into the Outer Perimeter (Orbit) of the Flex-Plate.

This gives the Holding-Restrictive 15mm Socket an ENORMOUS Mechanical Advantage over the Center of the Force resisting the removal of the Crankshaft Bolt WHICH IS .essentially... DBOC... (Dead Balls On Center) and thus the need for the Impact Grade Socket, Long Breaker Bar AND 3' x 1.5" Pipe as an Extension of your own Strength and "Horse Power".

When the Bolt Breaks Loose... it will turn quite Slowly... Once that occurs...you can get it off with a 1/2" Long Handle Ratchet & Socket. (See my Linked Images showing this happening above). AVOID ACCIDENTALLY ACTIVATING THE IMPACT GUN OR YOU WILL BREAK LOOSE THE RESTRICTING TORQUE CONVERTER BOLT.

One last thing to avoid... DO NOT USE ANY LUBRICANTS-OILS-WD-40 OR GREASE ON THE OUTSIDE OR INSIDE DIAMETER OF THE HARMONIC BALANCER OR TTY BOLT The whole problem involved with installing the HB is that you want to reduce ANY chances of having it SLIP after using the HB INSTALLER Bolt and Dual Washer Kit to drive the HB as far in as it will go WITHOUT having to rely upon the TTY Bolt for this action...PERIOD.

The reason for this is that you only want that New TTY Bolt to experience TWO Tightening Events without any additional resistance: (1) 110 Foot Pounds of Torque and (2) 180 Degrees of Torque to Angle as the Final Tightening Event. from 12:00 to the 6:00 Position. Prior to this action... Flush Out the Interior of the Crankshaft Hollow Thread Lines of any Old Mung and Muck left inside with Brake-Kleen Solvent. This prevents accidentally Hydro-Locking the New HB Bolt.

The attached image displays the Front Timing Cover Seal for the GM OEM Part # 12574688 that SHOULD mate correctly with the Updated Harmonic Balancer:
 

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mrrsm

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I've been pondering your explanation about a "Wobble" in the Harmonic Balancer as the basis for doing this repair. What you vaguely described is a Symptom... not a Cause. So the issue of having excessive Engine Vibrations could also involve Worn Out or Damaged Main Thrust Bearing Segments on the fore & aft sides of the #5 Crankshaft Journal Main Bearings.

Coincidental with this problem, there can also be symptomatic Cracks forming and propagating outwards from around the Crankshaft Bolt Holes in the Flex-Plate occurring after the Crankshaft begins to "Hunt" by excessively, moving forwards and backwards in response to frequent changes in RPM levels and rising and falling Engine Torque levels without those Thrust Bearings resisting these longitudinal movements.

Did your Serpentine Belt show ANY signs of fraying along the edges? If so, that would indicate that the HB was of course, moving in and out in concert with the motion of the Crankshaft, causing the squares sides of the belt to wear and fray excessively. Once you manage to get the Old Harmonic Balancer removed...examine the front of the Timing Cover for signs that the inside of the HB has been grinding or burnishing itself into the Cover. If you are so inclined, give us all an update of your status with some Photos of your situation ...whenever time permits.
 

Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
Hey guys. Sorry it's been a while since I last replied, been going through some stuff, but was finally home with some time to get to it. All the help from you guys is incredible btw, greatly appreciated.

Got everything done including new fan clutch and water pump plus new front strut assemblies and rear shocks (ik its irrelevant but made the ride much smoother).

After first start it drove great l, minimal vibrations etc. But was still looking out bc in the past, it would seem ok but slowly would get worse. And sure enough...

Don't get me wrong, it drives amazing, it's got some balls again, gas milage is good, but the vibrations are returning.. only at idle tho, once rpms pick up, no problems. But like I said, they're slowly getting stronger.

I did check the live data and noticed botb o2 sensors are jumping around the same voltage between .9 and .05 V not sure if there's a problem w the sensors or if cat problems are comming around. I also have a lot of heat dissipating from the exhaust causing a pretty loud tinting.

MRRSM, i didn't notice anything around the belt it looks fine and it's not very old, but let me know of any specific pics you could use.
only pics I took from when harmonic balancer was off or of some gouges that came from removing the main seal and scouring the cover I did send it finally and made it look pretty decent and used 90 min rtv Ultra black to seal the main seal tightly.
Still have the old hb though and the Bolt, ill take pics rn and load them
ill upload videos of live data as well. I'm going to attach a link to the video. One was for personal reference so I'll be talking to myself about what I'm doing an where I'm at. But you'll know when I accelerate etc.

Thanks again guys


This one's a little hard to read. But it's while on the road.
https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/krrHggjangnN IL post pics20210814_014119.jpg20210706_071402.jpg
 
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mrrsm

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Congratulations on your Successful Repair... Thanks for being such a "Good Listener"

Most of the time... Heavy Vibrations at idle are caused by the ultimate failure of the "Liquid Gel" filled Motor Mounts. If you can see anything Black, Gooey and Sticky decorating the Lower Fender Well areas adjacent to the undersides of the Motor Mounts... that will be caused by having ruptures in the side wall carcasses of the MM "Rubber Bulbs" containing that very viscous fluid. Once that Stuff Jetts out from inside, the MMs become useless.

The only reason that the vibrations subside at higher RPM is because the Engine Block moves in the opposite direction of Crankshaft Rotation from High Torque and essentially the Block gets pinned to one side until the RPM drops back down to an idle. On rare occasions, an Imbalance within the Stator Vanes of a clogged up Torque Converter can evince Low Idle Vibrations, too.

The ACDelco OEM Motor Mount versions may be "Hen's Teeth Hard" to find and they can cost as much as $85.00 - $145.00 a piece. Here are some images of what they look like in their packaging and one that shows a Hole in the Carcass for that awful Sticky Goo to leak out. There ARE some Chinese Knock-Off Motor Mounts possibly available on eBay... but as with everything else, you'll get what you pay for where these are concerned:

GM ACDelco Part # 15062381

NOTE:

Its too bad we didn't know about the Vibration Symptoms back in Post #1 and about your pending Strut R&Rs because the easiest way to R&R the Motor Mounts is to Unbolt their Inner Brackets through the Fender Wells AFTER the Struts are lowered from the Top to gain access to the Three Outer Bolt Heads. At least you have enough experience to repeat these actions because otherwise, doing the Motor Mount "Swap Through The Top" is a Stone B*tch of a PITA Job.



"When the Student is READY... The Teacher Emerges..." Confucius
 

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59840Surfer

Member
Apr 19, 2020
85
Montana
I just take the socket and a mid length breaker bar and rest the handle on the frame, then go in and hit the starter.

The handle as to be on top of the frame on the driver's side.

Be careful ... envision what could be destroyed ... and don't anchor the breaker bar on sheet metal!

If you hit the starter more than likely it'll instantly break the crank bolt loose on the first hit.

You'll know because you'll hear it work, and don't worry because it won't bounce back if you crank a few revolutions.

It's amazing that the starter can do this with barely any hesitation at all.

Just don't be nervous ... I was too the first time I did it..... but I've used this technique for over 50 years as an owner-operator of a few shops.

I never damaged anything but sometimes the socket will drop through the frame when it breaks the bolt loose, so be prepared for that.

This technique cannot be used to tighten the bolt, however.... I know this for a fact.
 
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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Like @MRRSM said, vibrations at idle are 99% of the time the motor mounts. Use ACDelco or GM part only as all aftermarket copies were not copied right and don't have the internal silicone gel.
 
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Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
Thanks for the replies guys, I know my repairs have been in a completely random order, but it's all done so I'm just glad I got some experience out of it.

Did my links for the live data work? My phone was acting up when I posted the videos and not sure I'd they had loaded all the way. Wanted to know if anybody had seen any strange numbers from the data, I read somewhere that if the downstream o2 sensor was showing similar readings, there might be a problem in the cat.@

Also, I've been noticing a fuel smell in the cabin when the trucks warming up, not sure what that could be from.

And as for the mounts. I regret to inform you guys that I did indeed replaced them with aftermarket parts,

qhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B07L1DPGHT?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

And not saying anybody is wrong, but I heard mounts wouldn't cause the rpms to fluctuate, which they do, nowhere near as bad as before but I did start to see STFT going into the -+13 & -+14 range, but it seems to get progressively worse the longer I stay at an idle.

But if you guys thing that mounts are the next box to check ill go ahead and see where I can find a cheap (quality) pair.

As always,
Much appreciation guys.
 

mrrsm

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Oct 22, 2015
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Well... if your replaced those Motor Mounts quite recently and there are no indications they have leakage or failures... there is no point with installing the ACDelco OEM MM versions. How about making a Short List of everything else related that you've done so far?
 
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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
The mounts wouldn't cause an idle fluctuation but would be the source of vibrations in a normally idling engine. The mounts may be exacerbating them if it's not idling normally.

You will have to find the source of that fuel smell. That will determine your next course of action. If from the exhaust, then it's unburnt fuel. This will need to be fixed ASAP as this would destroy your cat. That should throw a CEL and code. If it's raw fuel from anywhere else, it's a leak. It may affect idle if the pressure is low enough. Does it take a long time cranking to start?

Unfortunately I am on satellite internet right now and can't verify your uploads.
 

Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
MRRSM

IDK im probably going to go get oem mounts today, I hate the vibrations and I don't trust Amazon recently they're dirty as hell nowadays.

Okay I'll try and get everything done and still existing problems, I'll try my best to keep everything in chronological order I might miss a few but if I remember anything I'll post it.

I've been slowly working on it over a period of time and drivability is best as I've seen since I had taken ownership.

I think the first things I started out with we're cleaning the throttle body and general brake maintenance

Had a coil pack go out after new fuel filter.

New cam pos sens.

Then went ahead and replaced upper and lower control arms lower control arm all ball joints on the front end. And sway bar links &bushings. Alignment afterwards. Detroit axle

Flushed power steering fluid. Not the fancy way but just by removing adding removing adding etc.

also at some point replaced the VVT solenoid it was aftermarket and the fuel pressure regulator also after market I'll post The Links at the bottom and tried my best to clean out the purge valve

New air filter and map sensor oem

Transmission fluid change with new filter and pan Gasket w new trans dipstick. Oem

Then came the valve cover gasket job.

New fan belt tensioner and idler pully oem

New iat or ait sensor not sure which one but it's the sensor before the resonator next to the accordion hose

Several oil changes in between work done at this point every time I used Pennzoil Platinum high mileage and once or twice used Lucas Oil stabilizer high mileage but haven't used it recently

Harmonic balancer replacement oem and new front main seal.

All new acdelco plugs, didn't touch the gap

New thermostat oem I'm pretty sure.

new front end strut assemblies and rear shocks with rear sway bar links and bushings. Detroit axle

the most recent work was water pump and fan clutch replacement, I flushed radiator and new fluid.

Also I've done 2 piston soaks about 6months apart, first was mmo then recently b12, b12 had better results imo

But for now I think that's it, time span is about 18-20 months.

Mooseman-
The only cel codes I got were from before my valvecover gasket job. Going down the road got a p300 4 random misfire and the c e l was flashing haven't got the codes since.

Also I'm going to have to apologize for being such a dumb*$$, I was actually reading another thread you had commented on and noticed that the nipple looking cover above the fuel pressure regulator was just that, a cover.

While doing the valve cover gasket job I had cleaned the plenum and thought that it was just some kind of safety bumper. It had torn in the process, creating........
A vaccuum leak.

I used permatex 90 min black an reinstalled.. Its running noticably better and But it's still having some Issues.

Rpms have stabilized but still aren't where I think they should be, I read they should be around 650 and I'm getting around 590-615ish.

Vibrations are still lingering so I'm getting new mounts today if you guys think it's necessary. Autozone has em In stock.

I'm still getting fuel smell in cab right after starting. In probably going to get a fuel dye and uv light to see if there are any fuel line leaks.

I did go and check near fuel pressure regulator but it doesn't look like there's any leaks around it it was a cheap aftermarket fpr but it also if you guys think it's necessary I'll get a OEM because there has to be a reason there's an $80 difference in parts.

Here's the links for the am parts for you guys

VVT solenoid

FPR

Mounts, if I didn't already post

Let me know if there is any more info you guys need or live data, thanks.
 

Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
And somewhere on this thread, saw a post about needing a case relearn, I had called the dealership and was told if the cel isn't in a relearn wasn't needed.
So far the truck is driving very well other than the vibrations at idle. But after giving it some throttle it drives amazing.
Also I have had this pretty much the entire time I've had the truck when at idle if I were to give it gas there is a hesitation before RPMs jump.

But that hesitation isn't consistent if I were to rev the engine once it would hesitate but if I were to do it immediately again hesitation wouldn't be there or would be significantly less.
 

Timber531

Original poster
Member
Jun 6, 2021
22
Georgia
Lmk what you guys think if I should get oem mounts or any other parts replaced if needed.
Im going to take a trip up to north Carolina in a few days, close to 7 or 8 hrs total drive. Hoping getting on the freeway would help instead of the daily drives I use it for.

Also, when I'm looking at the engine while it's running, I can hear a faint hissing noise comming from what sounds like the alternator/FPR area, reason why I'm thinking of replacing it. Idk how to test FPR though.

hell It might be the bearings in the alternator idk, was going to maybe inject some grease into the alt bearing. I had tried spraying carxb cleaner around the area but no change in idle.
 

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