Batman massacre

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401

Regulator

Member
Nov 20, 2011
2,496
Like I said on the post whore thread, this is just one more reason to conceal carry. It is a real shame when something like this happens, I can't help but believe that there would not have been so much senseless death if there was a trained, level headed, honest citizen in the audience that could have put a stop to it well before the authorities were on scene. Maybe I am just wired differently though, I don't know.

My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.
 

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
I agree if they had someone with a ccw and well trained would have helped but one problem, that guy was heavily armored from head to toe so I don't know how successful it would have been to fire at him. Also most of the people in there were kids so the likey hood to have one trained and have a gun is low also.
 

RavenWolf

Member
May 28, 2012
10
I live 5 minutes from that theater. Thankfully I wasn't there. I'm completely for ccw and the 2nd Amendment. It wouldn't have helped in this situation. Between the timing of the shooter (apparently timed the attack with a scene from the movie), the panic caused, and the smoke bombs that were set off, only a highly trained police/swat officer, or military/special forces would have had a chance. On top of everything, because of the large amount of gang activity and teenagers and such carrying weapons, the theater does NOT allow concealed carry at all.
 

mikeinDE

Member
Jan 4, 2012
855
I heard something on the news the other day about all this, really made my jaw drop.
Not sure if you all remember about a month or 2 ago, there was a mall shooting up in Toronto, I think it was a bunch of guys going crazy in the mall. Well this lady had left the mall, just moments before. I think she even said she had a bad feeling, or maybe she just randomly left. But anyways, she moved down to Colorado. Don't ya know, she escaped the tragedy of the Toronto Mall only to be killed in this tragedy.
Wild stuff!!

http://news.discovery.com/human/jessica-ghawi-120721.html
 

RavenWolf

Member
May 28, 2012
10
mikeinDE said:
I heard something on the news the other day about all this, really made my jaw drop.
Not sure if you all remember about a month or 2 ago, there was a mall shooting up in Toronto, I think it was a bunch of guys going crazy in the mall. Well this lady had left the mall, just moments before. I think she even said she had a bad feeling, or maybe she just randomly left. But anyways, she moved down to Colorado. Don't ya know, she escaped the tragedy of the Toronto Mall only to be killed in this tragedy.
Wild stuff!!

The shooting was at the Eaton Centre in Toronto. The woman was a 24 year old sportscaster. She was originally from Texas and had moved to Denver. If you search "Jessica Redfield" on google you can find more. Including her last twitter post, about 20 min before the movie started. It breaks your heart to see an aspiring young woman survive one tragedy to be cut down by another.

Not being insensitive, but it makes me think of Final Destination.
 

mikeinDE

Member
Jan 4, 2012
855
Yea I mentioned her story to a buddy here at work, he mentioned "Final Destination" too, it's eerie!
 

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
RavenWolf said:
I live 5 minutes from that theater. Thankfully I wasn't there. I'm completely for ccw and the 2nd Amendment. It wouldn't have helped in this situation. Between the timing of the shooter (apparently timed the attack with a scene from the movie), the panic caused, and the smoke bombs that were set off, only a highly trained police/swat officer, or military/special forces would have had a chance. On top of everything, because of the large amount of gang activity and teenagers and such carrying weapons, the theater does NOT allow concealed carry at all.

That is what im saying I mean this guy was protected from head to toe and had a gas mask on. What really seems to get me is that this guy had a degree and a master and was going for a phd. What in the world got him to do that you know. Just threw all that down the drain. Now with someone like that do they have like death penalty in CO or at all in the USA for killings like that?

mikeinDE said:
I heard something on the news the other day about all this, really made my jaw drop.
Not sure if you all remember about a month or 2 ago, there was a mall shooting up in Toronto, I think it was a bunch of guys going crazy in the mall. Well this lady had left the mall, just moments before. I think she even said she had a bad feeling, or maybe she just randomly left. But anyways, she moved down to Colorado. Don't ya know, she escaped the tragedy of the Toronto Mall only to be killed in this tragedy.
Wild stuff!!

Batman Victim Had Escaped Toronto Shooting : Discovery News

Wow thats crazy as hell!!! Looks like you really cannot escape death. Poor girl!!
 

Regulator

Member
Nov 20, 2011
2,496
ItsOnVoy said:
I agree if they had someone with a ccw and well trained would have helped but one problem, that guy was heavily armored from head to toe so I don't know how successful it would have been to fire at him. Also most of the people in there were kids so the likey hood to have one trained and have a gun is low also.

I certainly understand your point. I also understand were below you said that the theater doesn't allow concealed carry. I can tell you, from experience, that no matter how much armor you are wearing, when someone shoots back, you duck and cover. I truly think that if there was someone there that fired back on him he would have been out the door immediately, which would have saved countless lives. Further more, if there had been someone there that was well trained, body armor or not, he would not have made it out of the theater.

Like I said in my original post, I am wired differently then a lot of people. I have 10 years in the Army with 3 combat tours, and as a civilian have worked armed security in some very high risk areas in the county. I know what I would have done in the situation without a shadow of doubt. Unfortunately, the society norm has moved far away from that. We are no longer a society that believes in arming ourselves. I am sorry to say that the majority of this country have turned into sheep that just trudge along believing that they will be perfectly fine. That is certainly not the case, and has been proven time and time again.

"In reference to the shooting in colorado I will say this: The world can be a scary and dangerous place. We all think it will never happen to us. People, you must be aware that against all odds, there are people out there who want to hurt you, and it is up to you and you alone to protect yourself and the ones you love. That is just the way things are, and why we do what we do. Stay vigilant. Stay aware of your surroundings. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families of those struck in this tragedy." Ironsight Tactical - quoted from their Facebook page.

I truly believe every word that was written there. It is time for Americans to wake up and realize that you are not as safe in your little bubble as you would choose to believe. This world is a dark and scary place, and there are dangers around every corner. It is time that you protect yourself and your own. If you don't know how, find a class. Find someone to teach you and then practice, practice, practice. God willing you may never be put in a situation like this, but if you are you need to be ready. I can honestly say that if I ever have to face this danger than I can protect me and my own, can you?
 

strat81

Member
Dec 29, 2011
399
ItsOnVoy said:
I agree if they had someone with a ccw and well trained would have helped but one problem, that guy was heavily armored from head to toe so I don't know how successful it would have been to fire at him. Also most of the people in there were kids so the likey hood to have one trained and have a gun is low also.

All the more reason to practice failure to stop drills.
 

STLtrailbSS

Member
Dec 4, 2011
1,617
I have been around guns my entire life my dads an ole country boy and he has a CCL well I thought he was over reacting but this story has freaked me out its awful and I agree with regulator armored or not hes a human and if someone is drawn and firing on you your instinct would have been swayed. Then this guy comes out saying hes the joker so the media can blast the studios for there "extreme fiilms" If your that stupid to interpret a movie and carry out the actions. Its not the movie your just a physco.
 

Cable810

Member
Dec 5, 2011
690
My heart and prayers goes out to the victims.

"Unfortunately, the society norm has moved far away from that. We are no longer a society that believes in arming ourselves. I am sorry to say that the majority of this country have turned into sheep that just trudge along believing that they will be perfectly fine. That is certainly not the case, and has been proven time and time again."

Totally agree with that right there. My dad works for The State Police here in Michigan, when he is off duty or we are somewhere he allways has his gun with him for that JUST INCASE moment like this shooting......

Our Local Police departments can only do so much. Its not like they can be there in a blink of the eye,sometimes its up to us.

He DESERVES the Death Penalty!! IMO

Deffinily getting my CCP when I get the money.
 

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
I don't disagree with you at all!! Your right no matter what they would duck and cover. Never thought about that either for some reason. Guns in the right hands can do a lot of good, nut unfortunate it's not always in the right hands at the right time. Now here's the thing with the ccw and all, actually what is the difference with a ccw or ccw or ccl?
 

strat81

Member
Dec 29, 2011
399
ItsOnVoy said:
what is the difference with a ccw or ccw or ccl?

Regional thing. In some states it's a concealed handgun permit, in others it's a concealed handgun license, etc.

"CCW" is the generic term for a concealed-carry weapon.
 

Cable810

Member
Dec 5, 2011
690
Have to be 21 to be able to take the CCW classes in MI :hissyfit:
 

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
strat81 said:
Regional thing. In some states it's a concealed handgun permit, in others it's a concealed handgun license, etc.

"CCW" is the generic term for a concealed-carry weapon.

Oh ok yeah looks like in MI its a cpl (concealed pistol permit)

Cable810 said:
Have to be 21 to be able to take the CCW classes in MI :hissyfit:

yeah I just looked into it...makes some sense tho! I mean at 18 you can always have a shotgun in the house lol
 

strat81

Member
Dec 29, 2011
399
Cable810 said:
Have to be 21 to be able to take the CCW classes in MI :hissyfit:

Start training early. In most states, you can own a handgun at any age, but you must be 21 years old to purchase one from a dealer. Thus, a parent can gift you one. From there, take an NRA Basic Pistol class to learn the basics. Then, find out where you can shoot IDPA or USPSA in your area. Both sports will help you learn to shoot quickly and accurately under pressure.

A great all-around pistol that you will not grow out of is a Glock 19. If it fits your hand, buy one. Another good choice is a Smith & Wesson M&P 9.
 

Regulator

Member
Nov 20, 2011
2,496
strat81 said:
Start training early. In most states, you can own a handgun at any age, but you must be 21 years old to purchase one from a dealer. Thus, a parent can gift you one. From there, take an NRA Basic Pistol class to learn the basics. Then, find out where you can shoot IDPA or USPSA in your area. Both sports will help you learn to shoot quickly and accurately under pressure.

A great all-around pistol that you will not grow out of is a Glock 19. If it fits your hand, buy one. Another good choice is a Smith & Wesson M&P 9.

I fully agree, the Glock 19 is a great gun to learn to shoot on and for a first time user. The Glock line is proven reliable, easy to use, and simple to tear down. I carry a Glock 17 (full size 9mm) and have 10,000 plus rounds through it. I have only had two failures and they were both out of the same box of reloads. In my opinion that is pretty damn good.
 

Cable810

Member
Dec 5, 2011
690
I think your allowed to Purchase a handgun when your 18 in Michigan not 100% sure. Yea it don't make any sense.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Regulator said:
"In reference to the shooting in colorado I will say this: The world can be a scary and dangerous place. We all think it will never happen to us. People, you must be aware that against all odds, there are people out there who want to hurt you, and it is up to you and you alone to protect yourself and the ones you love. That is just the way things are, and why we do what we do. Stay vigilant. Stay aware of your surroundings. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families of those struck in this tragedy." Ironsight Tactical - quoted from their Facebook page.

The Gentleman that wrote this was a groomsman in my wedding. He is a vet and teaches tactics and classes. He is spot on with this post.

Remember it is not just learning to shoot, but situational awareness and knowing how to handle those situations.
 

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
So lets say you have the ccw and all, now I was told it is a shoot to kill idea. when do you shoot really? Like if someone comes to hit you then you cannot kill them right? Now if they have a weapon and you fell like your life is in there hands then you can draw and possibly shoot if they continue to come at you? my uncle to me to avoid the situation as much as possible till you really have to draw and all. now ok you got to that worst case and had to shoot the person because they had a knife and was coming at you or something, don't you have to go to court and spend money to prove your ok? I always wondered about that idea

Cable810 said:
I think your allowed to Purchase a handgun when your 18 in Michigan not 100% sure. Yea it don't make any sense.

I was told it was 21 to get a hand gun due to them being small and easy to hide so they did not allow 18 year olds to get them.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
ItsOnVoy said:
So lets say you have the ccw and all, now I was told it is a shoot to kill idea. when do you shoot really? Like if someone comes to hit you then you cannot kill them right? Now if they have a weapon and you fell like your life is in there hands then you can draw and possibly shoot if they continue to come at you? my uncle to me to avoid the situation as much as possible till you really have to draw and all. now ok you got to that worst case and had to shoot the person because they had a knife and was coming at you or something, don't you have to go to court and spend money to prove your ok? I always wondered about that idea

Far too many variables and please do not take someones word on the internet for when to draw or to shoot. There are different laws in different states, counties, cities....

Do some research of Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground and Duty to Retreat.

RESEARCH... simple google search found the answer to the handgun ownership between 18 and 21. You can own one but need to purchase it from an individual....
Michigan Gun Rights - An Overview of Gun Laws in Michigan
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
ItsOnVoy said:
... Like if someone comes to hit you then you cannot kill them right? ....
Should all be covered by your competent, local, hands-on trainer. Internet advice cannot substitute.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
FWIW...You guys in MI are close enough that it could be worthwhile to contact Ironsight Tactical for some training. There may be closer stuff to you, but I do know he travels for classes and might be willing to meet or come up there as well.
 

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
Ok I'll be asking about it. I turn 21 in a little over 3 months so doesn't hurt too ask about it early and all.
 

Jkust

Member
Dec 4, 2011
946
The stories coming out are hard to read. So then for the ccl, how exactly do you carry when it's 95 degrees, and you've got shorts and a tshirt on? I can barely conceal my cell phone.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Jkust said:
The stories coming out are hard to read. So then for the ccl, how exactly do you carry when it's 95 degrees, and you've got shorts and a tshirt on? I can barely conceal my cell phone.

Its all in the right holster and weapon. A smaller single stack with an in the waistband holster or a pocket holster is easy to hide. I can wear pocketless gym shorts and a tshirt and carry concealed. Its easier than my cell since the pistol has an IWB holster.
 

ItsOnVoy

Original poster
Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,401
It also depends on the state. I was told in MI you can be walking on the streets and your gun can hang out and be seen just fine. I think it's going into a place is all.
 

03TB93

Member
Mar 25, 2012
341
That guy shouldn't have made it to the cop car.... Bastard :mad: :no:
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
ItsOnVoy said:
It also depends on the state. I was told in MI you can be walking on the streets and your gun can hang out and be seen just fine. I think it's going into a place is all.

He was asking about Concealed Carry. In Indiana you can not get a concealed carry permit. You can get a carry permit and then you can carry concealed or open. Walking down the street or going into a place. You can hide it or wear a shoulder harness without a shirt on.


I know in MI you must open carry until 21, but I dont live there.... You may want to do some research rather than posting what you hear. Not trying to confrontational, but this thread is full of halfass :"what they told" and "what I think" and "What someone's cousins sisters fathers uncles grandad knows from the war in africa cause they did it in alaskaMIfloridaTexas"....

It is really easy to just google what you heard and know if it is law or not.
 

Hatchet

Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,405
ItsOnVoy said:
Like if someone comes to hit you then you cannot kill them right?

Every situation is different. Someone punching a 25 year old in the head vs punching a 80 year old in the head is a huge difference. Older gentleman in chicago got punched in the face by some 18 year old, He's dead. There is no one right answer.
 

Jkust

Member
Dec 4, 2011
946
Let's see the anti gun/pro gun control backlash crowd have a field day as they do everytime one person goes off.
Wearing what I've got on now, jeans and a golf shirt, I can't imagine concealing anything. Even a tiny .38 or purse size .22??
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Jkust said:
Let's see the anti gun/pro gun control backlash crowd have a field day as they do everytime one person goes off.
Wearing what I've got on now, jeans and a golf shirt, I can't imagine concealing anything. Even a tiny .38 or purse size .22??

You would be really surprised how much can be hidden. .45 with a nice tuckable holster is easy w jeans n golf shirt.
 

strat81

Member
Dec 29, 2011
399
Regulator said:
I carry a Glock 17 (full size 9mm) and have 10,000 plus rounds through it.

Glock 26 carrier h:smile:ere.

Cable810 said:
I think your allowed to Purchase a handgun when your 18 in Michigan not 100% sure. Yea it don't make any sense.

Federal law is that you must be 21 to purchase a handgun from a licensed dealer. You can buy all the rifles and shotguns you want at 18 though.

ItsOnVoy said:
So lets say you have the ccw and all, now I was told it is a shoot to kill idea. when do you shoot really?

Some major things:
1) You must be at risk of grave bodily harm and/or death.
2) Three elements are involved: The threat/attacker must possess the ability to hurt you, must have the opportunity to hurt you, and your life must be in jeopardy. Knowing that, the "rules" are different for an 80 year old woman and a 26 year old linebacker.

As mentioned, the rules vary by state. States have different rules about duty to retreat, stand your ground, and using deadly force to prevent certain types of felonies including rape, kidnapping, and arson. Texas, IIRC, is the only state that lets you use deadly force to protect personal property (subject to certain conditions).

I can't speak for your state or instructor, but in my CHP class, 80% of the time was spent on self-defense laws in my state and conflict deescalation. 15% was gun safety, 5% was testing.

Jkust said:
The stories coming out are hard to read. So then for the ccl, how exactly do you carry when it's 95 degrees, and you've got shorts and a tshirt on? I can barely conceal my cell phone.

Many people have different guns for different clothing situations. A heavy sweatshirt can conceal a larger handgun than a tank top. A Ruger LCP is roughly the size of an average man's wallet. You should be able to conceal that in virtually any situation except for Speedo day down at the beach. A quality inside-the-waistband holster can conceal quite a wide variety of pistols without sacrificing too much to the fashion gods.

Jkust said:
Wearing what I've got on now, jeans and a golf shirt, I can't imagine concealing anything. Even a tiny .38 or purse size .22??

Some jean pockets are cut differently allowing for easy pocket carry. Most Levis fail in that regard, but I have a pair of Old Navy painter's jeans with slash-cut pockets that work very well for pocket carry. I've carried a Colt Cobra (a hair larger than a S&W J-frame) in those pockets with no problem. Jeans with wider legs work well for ankle carry although ankle carry is not my first choice. Lastly, and IWB holster with "J-clips" allow you to tuck your shirt in. With a relatively small grip, you won't have to blouse the shirt out very much to hide the gun.


The other thing to remember is that most people are oblivious to the various wrinkles, creases, and bumps in clothing. If they even do notice a bump, most will think it's a smartphone.
 

DucatiSS

Member
Nov 19, 2011
369
Getting back on topic. I like to keep all things in perspective.

Yesterday just like everyday, an average of 48 people die at the hands of a drunk driver. Where is the call for alcohol reform?, or a limit as to how much you can buy, or some saying that Beer and Wine are ok, but there is no reason to drink hard liqueur.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
DucatiSS said:
Getting back on topic. I like to keep all things in perspective.

Yesterday just like everyday, an average of 48 people die at the hands of a drunk driver. Where is the call for alcohol reform?, or a limit as to how much you can buy, or some saying that Beer and Wine are ok, but there is no reason to drink hard liqueur.


Great point.
 

DucatiSS

Member
Nov 19, 2011
369
My point is that what happened in Aurora was a tragedy. Just like the senseless deaths revolving around drunk drivers, and other acts of violence.

These things will happen, if it isn't guns, it will be alcohol, or bombs, or machetes, etc. We must not legislate the item, but the act.
23 people in 1 truck today in a auto accident and 14 were killed. Will they call for regulations for how many people can fit into the bed of a truck? No, and they shouldn't. It wasn't Fords fault, nor the people that sold the truck.

Criminals do not abide by the laws, so please do not write any more to "protect" us.
 

Voymom

Member
Feb 3, 2012
2,523
DucatiSS said:
My point is that what happened in Aurora was a tragedy. Just like the senseless deaths revolving around drunk drivers, and other acts of violence.

These things will happen, if it isn't guns, it will be alcohol, or bombs, or machetes, etc. We must not legislate the item, but the act.
23 people in 1 truck today in a auto accident and 14 were killed. Will they call for regulations for how many people can fit into the bed of a truck? No, and they shouldn't. It wasn't Fords fault, nor the people that sold the truck.

Criminals do not abide by the laws, so please do not write any more to "protect" us.

I couldn't have said it better Ducati.

As far as those who want a CPL or are thinking of getting one, there is SOO much more to it than just getting your license/permit. Not only legally, but mentally and emotionally. Most individual's that are sane and have a heart do not carry a gun with intentions to shoot or kill someone, they carry the gun in case a situation arises where no other forms of defense or escape are available. You can't blow a dudes head off in the middle of a road for beating your ass...well you could, but the legalities of things would probably not go well in your favor, if you can remove yourself from the situation, you should do so before drawing your weapon. I know that I personally do not want to kill someone EVER, however...if my life or my families life is in harm, and there is no escape, or any other method of defense, I will shoot, and I will do so to kill. It's a "His word against your's" If he is dead...what other words do they have to go off of? But be prepared for the dead parties family to act like he/she was a victim.

Look at the neighborhood watch guy in the Trayvon Martin case. You shoot and kill someone, you better have ALL your "T's crossed and i"s dotted". You need to know all the legal information about carrying before you actually apply for you license. I am in the process of getting mine, but I have not applied yet, because I am still doing my studying and research before I get my license. I want to make sure I follow EVERY legislation and law passed, because I don't want to harm my family by shooting for the wrong reasons.

Situational awareness is HUGE. I can walk into a room, and tell you what everyone was wearing, and where they were standing. Well as long as it isn't a room filled with hundreds of people. For example. I took my neighbor to a creepy town to pick her daughter up from the bus station. I carried 2 box cutters and a knife. I could tell you still to this day what the 3 guys were wearing, and identifying features, as they stood at the door, making absurb sexual comments and gestures to me and my neighbor. I was on high alert, I am always no matter if it is out in my front yard alert. I'm not in a panic state, call it paranoia, or whatever you want, but I am aware of all my surroundings at all times, and I am aware at who is around me in my surroundings as well.

I grew up with this, as my dad trains new comers in MI for the police academy and those who are training for a CPL, and he also teaches self defense classes, which I would highly recommend doing even if you carry a gun. You gun is not a cure all or an answer to every problem, it is a last minute defense mechanism if you feel your life or your families lives are in immediate danger. You can't be the type of person who flies off the handle in anger for every little thing, you have to train yourself to be calm, no matter what the situation is, and it's easier said than done. I don't want to kill anyone, but my family comes first....and I would not hesitate to take someone out if they put me or my family's lives in danger.

And don't think for a second that someone can walk away perfectly normal emotionally after they use deadly force on someone. Most CPL users who have shot and took a life, can tell you....it will haunt you, no matter if he shot out of defense. Also, be aware that in most cases, if a friend or a child gets a hold of your gun, and takes a life, you will also be held responsible for what they did with YOUR firearm, at least that is what I have been told by a CPL trainer here in Iowa. So safety first!
 

Short Bus

Member
Dec 2, 2011
1,906
Jkust said:
Let's see the anti gun/pro gun control backlash crowd have a field day as they do everytime one person goes off.
Wearing what I've got on now, jeans and a golf shirt, I can't imagine concealing anything. Even a tiny .38 or purse size .22??

I carry in shorts and a t-shirt and you would never know. Like others have said, it's all in the holster.

Theisholsters.com | Products | Custom IWB Holsters
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
FWIW- I talked with my buddy that was quoted earlier and he said he would be happy to help out or direct anyone to the right info or classes or just answer questions. He asked me to post a link to his site so anyone that was interested could contact him through there.

IronSight Tactical | ,
 

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