Alignment... more specifically camber adjustment...

[budwich]

My 2008 (170kkm) has had the upper and lower ball joints replaced two years ago as it did eat one tire (inside wear) and the joints were done. Took it in for alignment and the tire shop brought everything back in line with no further issues in general. Truck tracks well and runs down the road well. Looking at it, I still feel the camber is not right and I still seem to get more than I would like wear on the inside of both fronts (after about 30kkm). The shop set the camber up at -.9 / -.8 which from the range seems to be somewhat "high" (-1.3 to .3) "spec" with tilt in. Before and after camber hasn't changed (toe and caster adjustments had minor adjustments).

I have read in places that the "most" you can do on the positive side is "0" with trailblazer "mechanicals".

So my real question is, if I try to do the camber adjustment in my "driveway" basically, moving it towards "0", am I likely to cause a significant issue with this "attempt"? My view is that the worse I can do is move the spec to "0" which according to their system is still within spec. Of course, having never played with the "adjustment", the secondary question would be which way do I go to head towards "0"?

Thanks for the comments. I know the one could also start replacing things like bushings, etc but I would first like to move the camber a bit to see if it helps. Around here, an alignment runs $150 IF it doesn't require anything else done, hence the "hope" and the "query" that perhaps some minor adjustment might get me close to where things will be more "happy" to my tires.

 

[Mooseman]

The way our trucks are aligned, it's with the LCA and in the process of changing camber, you might bugger up caster. I wouldn't do it.

 

[budwich]

Ok... but is this a real risk as it also appears that the caster adjustment is minimal.... but maybe that's in relationship to any given camber adjustment. hmmm.... need to think more on this a bit or get out the wallet... :-(
I guess the secondary question would be, could I mark the lca bolt adjustment areas such that I could put the thing back to where I started?

 

[NJTB]

Don't forget when you change the camber angle, the toe will shift, too. Unless camber is out a bunch it won't wear tires too much. Too much toe will wear tires alot.

 

[budwich]

The rest of the numbers are in the "middle of the range" (or "less") while the camber is on the end of "more". I will likely leave it as it appears that doing something in the DIY end may end up potentially worse although that likely just means another $ alignment. At this point in the driving season (heading towards less in the winter), it shouldn't be a problem until spring / summer.
Thanks

 

[mrrsm]

@budwich ... Owing to a memory I have that during another Member's difficulties with a "No Start" Problem... your input during that entire matter was the Very Soul of Reason and EXACTLY what we all needed to learn from at the time... so I thought it deserves mentioning that as an accolade on your behalf before offering some information on this topic that may prove to be helpful to you.

The attached images are of two specific Front End Alignment Tools (and unfortunately a bit pricey) with some added information on HOW they get used via some edited Screen Prints from a Nissan Quest PDF that are still very valuable in their instructive nature. I hope these will be worth a look:

 

[budwich]

thanks for the comment and informations.

I continue to think about this. Based on the pictures of the lca mounting plate / bolts, and reading in various places, I can see that the caster adjustment is very limited.
Thus, it would appear that perhaps changes to camber, especially towards the "0" (going from -.9) is unlikely to result in much impact on caster.
I have a digital inclination meter so I am going to see how well I can rig up "repetitive measurements" (ie. take a measurement, drive around the block, position at the same place in the garage, re-measure) of camber, at least. I am hoping that I should be able to get to some "close degree" of measure.

As for toe in effect, I would think that the main issue here is when work is done by "total replacement" of the steering tie rod end (or other parts there of), hence a potential significant loss of "reference". But in the case where the toe in is already "in place", my read is that there would be limited impact on toe in / out from camber adjustments (assuming a "small change as opposed to a significant "lca arm replacement" type activity).

Of course, this is purely based on readings of the forum and elsewhere.... plus based on past replacement work of upper and lower ball joints that had no impact on numbers as far as I can see from print outs.... and kind of expected since a ball joint can basically only go into one place (ie. no adjustment).

Anyways, as I suggested, I plan to do some more "checking" in and around this "topic". Thanks again for the comments and guidances.

 

[Bow_Tied]

Anything wrong with just getting a second opinion from another shop? Some may give you a digital reading or printout before adjustment for little to no money - this could confirm if the readings you are were/are correct or worse.

 

[budwich]

potentially... although a couple that I have talked with will basically charge $50 just for a "look see". I don't think I have a problem with the numbers that the shop provided back then. They are within "spec"... just more at one end for camber. I probably should have taken it back originally as "visually" it seemed a bit "cambered". Certainly, it is far better than when the old ball joints were there as the tires lost their inside tread in about 12KKM during a long road trip.

 

[budwich]

Had some time to play with this some more.
I didn't do any moving of parts, just some measuring with a digital inclination meter to get an idea of how I can get some form of reference in my garage pad with the vehicle sitting there. Just some coarse numbers which seem to "imply" a negative camber of around "1.2ish". Based on "reference points" like: in center rim with the trim hub removed, level across the tire at points from enough away from the lower "weight bulge", rotor surface, etc. Not very "scientific" but just looking at things in general.

Climbed under the vehicle to look at the LCA mounting bracket. You are not able to see the slots where the brackets has "adjustment distance" as they are blocked by body plates that the bolts go thru. One thing I noticed is that based on the front "knuckle/bushing" position of the LCA, there is less than 1/8" gap between it and the body member so I think that might be why it is "impossible" to get a positive camber or maybe even to "0" which perhaps is why my number is where it is (-.9 reported).

The back "knuckle / bushing" appears to have lots of room for adjustment which might mean that there is great potential to inadvertently "shift" the "toe position" if the back part of the mounting plate slides more than the front assuming that is possible (ie. the slots might be "set" so that "misalignment" of front / back slots isn't possible).

I need to ponder this some more. I have to change the front rotors some times soon so maybe take that opportunity to look further into things.

 

[budwich]

well... its old and have not done much except travelled more...
so tracking is good, but wear continues on the inside of both wheels. Somewhat expected as the camber is towards to end of spec for that way (ie. -1).
Further there is an "appearance" of "cupping /scalping" along the first inner thread line. The vehicle has new front shocks (fall) and both top and bottom ball joints replaced (last spring). My new guess is maybe upper bushings on the upper control arm. Is this right direction of guess? The bottom bushings seemed fine during the lower ball joint replacement... assuming I am actually "seeing" what a bushing looks like...

Of course, the question would be now, how difficult is bushing replacment or is it basically better to replace the whole control arm ...ugh!

Good little truck, wish GM would have kept the line going as the next size up it too big for the garage and the "replacement line" doesn't cut it in terms of load and pulling.

 

[Mooseman]

I've replaced the bushings and it's a PITA.
If I had to do it over again, I'd replace the complete arms, especially the lowers that come with ball joints.

 

[Tiggerr]

Do the whole arm....
That's pretty much a good idea on any vehicle not just these...

 

[budwich]

thanks ... didn't take much convincing as i can see pressing out the bushing looks a bit worse than ball joints because of the "stamped metal".
Of course, the next question is there a maker / value that is ok... moog seems to get the nod but some indicate that quality has gone down. doorman?

 

[Tiggerr]

I got AC Delco for a pretty good price on Amazon...
Moog only makes their cheaper "r" line for our trucks... mevotech supreme is pretty good too... I've used them on other vehicles

 

[Mooseman]

Just watch Mevotech as their quality control can be lacking. I once received a tie rod with a crack in it. Wasn't impressed with the boots on the ball joints neither as it wouldn't hold on the joint portion.

 

[Tiggerr]

I've found a big difference between mevotech and the mevotech supreme line as well...supreme line seems on par with anything else I've used

 

[budwich]

good to know. thanks for the input. As with a lot of car things these days, "off shore plant" makes the same or nearly the same for all "name parts" of a certain type so it is tough to rely on "name alone".

 

[budwich]

So I am hoping to tackle the upper control arms shortly, as I continue to see inside wear (first thread ring) on both fronts. I am thinking that as a "first attack", those are the easiest to replace and the bushing are a "suspect" in the problem, based on age (2008) and mileage (200kkm).

I continue to wrestle with the camber "setup" / "adjustment" of the vehicle. Looking at the plates associated with the lower control arm, I do not see how one can adjust the caster to any degree based on how the slots (3) in the plate are all orientate in "parallel" such that the plate appears to only allow for "sliding in and out", hence only a change in camber and not impacting caster at all.
I know from readings that the caster and camber can be set "accordingly" but I don't see how unless those slots are significant larger (slots width) than the "seating bolts shank" which to me makes not sense and would likely be dangerous.

Further from inspection of the front end, the lower control arm / bushing knuckles have less than 1/8 inch before they move against the frame which may not do a lot to adjust out the -1 camber that the previous shop indicated they are at.

 

[Sparky]

Well get the upper arms done first, because if the bushings are bad and allowing the upper arm to sag inward that will make the negative camber worse.

 

[AWD V8]

I just did an alignment on my Envoy last week. 3 bolts hold the lower control arm in place. Loosen those 3 bolts and the arm will slide in and out, and swing front and rear. Lots of adjustment. Make sure that the bolts are VERY tight when you are finished. The arms will move with the slightest impact. I bumped a curb this last winter and the arm moved a lot and totally through my alignment out. On the other hand it did work kinda' like a fuse for the suspension, prevented permanent damage.

 

[littleblazer]

Even though the lower bracket is slotted there is some movement forward and back. As for throwing the alignment off by bumping a curb.. I hop curbs into customers yards all the time and it still seems fine. I documented my experience replacing the control arm bushings both up and lower and I wouldn't wish the lowers upon anyone. I didn't feel like messing with my own alignment so I got it good enough to drive and located someone. Most places wouldn't touch it I actually ended up at a truck shop. Actually a spring shop that works on all commercial stuff and they said no problem at all. Last time I had a vehicle aligned anywhere the steering wheel ended up being clocked off. These guys nailed it perfect on my truck. When you do the upper just bend the body panel out of the way instead of trying to cut it or something.

 

[budwich]

the slots must be "off size" with respect to the bolt "shank" otherwise "geometrically" there would be no way to do anything but slide in and out.
As suggested, I will do the uppers first and see if things improve. After that, a trip to the shop to see if they can move more "neutral" in the camber... maybe -.25 or so as opposed to -1.

 

[AWD V8]

the slots must be "off size" with respect to the bolt "shank" otherwise "geometrically" there would be no way to do anything but slide in and out.

The lower control arm is sandwiched between 2 sheets of steel. The holes in the control where the bolts pass through is much larger than the bolts. The bolt clamps it all together tightly.

 

[budwich]

So since I was "playing" with the truck and as meatloaf sang... dashboard lights... , I thought I might as well go all the way. I loosened the right side lower control arm bracket bolts..... marking some references on frame members to hopefully keep certain aspects of the setup / alignment. Basically, on the right side, there is probably less than 1/8 inch possible inner movement capable as the control arm knuckle hits the frame. So that was as much as I could move IF I was lucky... with rust and debris, it was less... maybe 3/32 ish.
Somewhat uneventful although trying to find a place to pound in a "good direction" took at bit.
Overall, nothing scary happened... or maybe ignorance is bliss but of course, there is some explanation to the happiness.

So let's assume the I only want / need to deal with camber... because I didn't like the looks (and the near the -1 limit that is current set according to the "guys"). IF you mark the front / back position of the control arm to "ensure" it doesn't move forward or backward, potentially you will not impact caster... that was my hope. Further, after a test drive, I noticed that my steering wheel was now not center during normal tracking down the road... ah ha... as people suggested, my "toe" would be changed. BUT... ah ha... no big deal, since I assume that nothing else changed in the whole setup (ie. I only did one side)... moving the control arm in, that means that the steering rod on that side has to also be moved in "some distance".... that distance, by a bit of "trail and drive" and bringing the steering back to center... resulted in a 2 turn adjustment to the steering rod. Of course if I was really good, I could have measured the inward distance that the control bracket moved and then moved that same distance on the steering rod... but I am not that good.

So truck appears to track with little difference than before but hopefully with less camber. I will keep an eye on wear to see if any thing shows up.