SOLVED! 4.2L LL8 Harmonic Balancer Removal/Installation

TopQuark

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Sep 17, 2019
2
MD
Cross-posting an old post of mine from 12/05/2015 on TrailVoy.


I just finished removing and re-installing the harmonic balancer on my 2007 4.2L LL8 TrailBlazer (in order to replace the oil pressure regulator in the front cover). This involved several epic struggles at various stages of the process, and I spent a lot of time searching the web for suggestions to make it easier, but I didn't really find any suggestions that were actually helpful (and didn't involve doing something risky ... like using the starter to break the bolt loose). So, I figured I should share my experiences, in the hope that it might save someone else some time, trouble, and money. Note that the 5.3L and 6.0L harmonic balancers are different (and look much easier to remove/install), so this only applies to 4.2L models.

Removing the balancer bolt:
I initially tried jamming both a screw driver and a pry bar in the flywheel, then having my wife try to loosen the bolt with a breaker bar while I held the screw driver and pry bar in place. This did not work at all - both the screw driver and pry bar started mangling the flywheel teeth under only moderate torque, and they would twist and slip off the teeth before we were anywhere close to putting enough torque on it to break the bolt loose.
So, I tried using a small (250 ft-lb) impact gun to remove the bolt. Because of the way the impact gun hammers on the bolt, there is no need to hold the flywheel; the inertia of the crankshaft and flywheel is enough to hold everything in place. However, this impact gun did nothing.
I ended up using this "700 ft-lb" impact gun (http://www.harborfreight.com/air-to...-in-professional-air-impact-wrench-68424.html) to get the bolt out, but even using that gun with my air compressor turned up to 100psi, I had to hammer on the bolt for quite a while (maybe a minute or two) before it broke loose.
I suspect it should be possible to remove this bolt with a breaker bar by using the torque converter bolt trick (described below) to hold the flywheel, but I would recommend using a big impact gun if you have one or can get one.

Removing the balancer:
The GM Service Manual says to use a special tool (J-41816) to remove the balancer. This tool costs about $140 from the official GM Tools Website (https://gmtoolsandequipment.com/en-US/Pages/ItemDetail.aspx?SKU=J-41816), so I tried to find another puller that would work.
I tried using an old Olympia 05-891 4" puller that I already had (I bought it many years ago, I'm not sure where), with a socket over the crank shaft, and a piece of scrap steel over the socket (for the puller screw to push against), but the puller screw broke before the balancer moved.
So I rented all of the pullers that Advance Auto Parts had available, and purchased this puller kit (http://www.harborfreight.com/3-piece-three-jaw-puller-set-8832.html). Unfortunately, none of those pullers fit. The problem is that all of these pullers have rounded hooks on the end of the jaws, and there isn't enough space behind the balancer (in front of the front cover) for the puller hook to fit, so you simply can't hook the puller legs onto the balancer.
Luckily, each leg on my Olympia puller has one rounded hook and one flattened hook (much like the special GM puller - check Google Images for pictures of the J-41816 legs to see what I'm describing), and the flattened hook did fit behind the balancer, so I was able to use the legs from my broken Olympia puller and the frame and screw from one of the Harbor Freight pullers to attach to the balancer.
Then the swivel tip on the Harbor Freight puller screw broke before the balancer moved. I removed the swivel tip and continued tightening the puller (past the point where it started mangling the exposed tip of the puller screw, and to about the point where I was worried that something else on the puller would break), and finally the balancer started moving!
If I had to do this again, I would probably try to find the special GM puller at a reasonable price (maybe on EBay or http://www.penybonttools.com/), or I would look around for a larger generic puller that had the same flattened hooks as my Olympia puller.

Installing the balancer:
On 2004 or later models which have a shim on the balancer snout, the GM Service Manual says you should replace the shim (P/N 12578073) before re-installing the balancer.
Then the GM Service Manual says to use another special tool (EN-48034) to install the balancer. (The balancer was almost as hard to get on as it was to get off, and installing the balancer with the old balancer bolt would certainly damage the threads in the crank shaft, so it is important to use a tool for this.)
This tool costs about $55 from the official GM Tools Website (https://gmtoolsandequipment.com/en-US/Pages/ItemDetail.aspx?SKU=EN-48034). Advance Auto Parts rents a similar looking harmonic balancer installer, but it is the wrong size. I ended up finding a used EN-48034 for $20 shipped. Again, you may want to check EBay or http://www.penybonttools.com/ for another used one.
Make sure you put grease on the threads of the tool and between the nut and the washer (if you buy a new one, it should come with grease) to ensure that the nut won't be difficult to turn and won't damage the threads or washer as you use it to force the balancer onto the crankshaft. I also put a little bit of motor oil on the outside of the crankshaft and the inside of the balancer to help it slide on easier.
I've read forum posts from other users that suggest that the balancer will damage the snout of the crankshaft if it is not installed squarely, so be careful to align the balancer properly before you start torquing down on the installation tool. I wiggled the balancer slightly while I gradually tightened the installation tool to make sure I got the balancer square on the crankshaft before I started torquing on it.

Installing the balancer bolt:
The balancer bolt stretches when it is installed (it is a "TTY" or "Torque To Yield" bolt), so you must replace it (P/N 11609792) when re-installing the balancer. The new bolt must be torqued to 110 ft-lb, then turned another half turn (180 degrees) to stretch it appropriately.
To hold the crankshaft while I torqued the bolt to 110 ft-lb, I wrapped my old drive belt around the harmonic balancer (kinda like this: http://www.tbssowners.com/forums/1256852-post7.html). Then I tried to use my "700 ft-lb" impact gun to drive it the rest of the half turn. I figured that since the impact gun took the bolt off it should be able get it back on, right? Wrong. The impact gun could only turn it about 1/6 turn (about 1/3 of the way it needed to go).
I tried turning the bolt further with a breaker bar while holding the balancer with the drive belt, but the drive belt broke before the bolt moved any further.
The GM Service Manual says to use special tool EN-46547 to hold the flywheel when installing/removing the harmonic balancer bolt, so I eventually broke down and bought that (for $136; I couldn't find any used ones). However, it turns out that tool doesn't actually fit the TrailBlazer! The picture in the service manual shows the oil pan having a large cut-out that mirrors the cut-out in the transmission bell housing (to create a large oval-shaped opening), but the TrailBlazer oil pan only has two circular cut-outs around the bolts in the oil pan (resulting in an odd "bone" shaped opening). This opening isn't large enough to get the GM tool in. It might be possible to use the tool when the oil pan is removed, but I had already re-installed the oil pan and didn't want to remove it again.
After a bunch of thinking and experimentation, I finally found a good way to hold the flywheel: In the back of the oil pan is a small plastic plug used to access the torque converter bolts when removing the transmission. I removed this plug, aligned one of the torque converter bolts with the hole, then inserted a 16mm socket over the bolt. The torque converter bolts are actually 15mm, but a 15mm socket would tilt on the bolt and twist in the access hole (and damage the the bolt and access hole) when I torqued on the balancer bolt, while a 16mm socket fit snugly in the access hole and didn't seem to twist much when I torqued on it. I also used a deep 16mm socket and wedged a piece of wood between the wrench end of the socket and the support flare on the edge of the oil pan to help keep the socket from tilting/twisting under torque.
With the flywheel locked in place, I was finally able to finish the extra half turn on the balancer bolt using a breaker bar with a cheater pipe. Based on the length of the pipe and how hard I was pulling it, I would estimate it took somewhere around 500 ft-lb of torque to get the bolt fully turned.
I'm not sure whether this means my "700 ft-lb" impact gun isn't actually putting out 700 ft-lb of torque, or whether it wasn't able to tighten the bolt any further because the bolt was being stretched for that extra half turn (so that with only instantaneous 700 ft-lb pulses, the bolt effectively acted like a spring and just bounced back to its original position and length after each pulse rather than stretching). I suspect the latter, although I don't know for sure.

Hope this helps someone.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,344
Ottawa, ON
What a helluva first post! Welcome to the Nation.

That hole you used is exactly what it's for, as well as to loosen the flexplate bolts. In fact, the tool set to use with the 1st gen balancer (the one with the round plate in front) includes a 15mm socket wrench to use in that hole to hold the flexplate from turning. You could use a socket and breaker bar to do the same thing.
 

mrrsm

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The Hands On imagery of BOTH Harmonic Balancer R&R Tool Sets In Action:

 

mrrsm

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Adding on these images of the Rare Kent-Moore 15mm (12) Point Socket & Handle Tool from the Original 2002 Engine HB Tool Set linked above that will prove useful to obtain (or Fabricate). It gets inserted as shown below after the removal of the Black Plastic Plug in the Aft Under-Flange of the Crankcase-Oil-Pan:

43350775062_c33ef53e25_c.jpg29528233628_5b6a5d8df5_c.jpg

This Tool (or a Home Made Version) is useful for BOTH Types of HB Designs for Locking Down the Flex-Plate-To-Torque Converter-Bolts during the R&R of "The Jesus Bolt" on the Harmonic Balancer-Crankshaft @ 110 Foot Pounds and then 180 Degrees of Torque To Yield (Angle):

HB15MMTCBOLTOOL.jpgHB15MMTCBOLTOOL0.jpgHB15MMTCBOLTOOL1.jpgHB15MMTCBOLTOOL2.jpgHB15MMTCBOLTOOL3.jpgHB15MMTCBOLTOOL4.jpgHB15MMTCBOLTOOL6.jpgHB15MMTCBOLTOOL7.jpgHB15MMTCBOLTOOL8.jpgHB15MMTCBOLTOOL9.jpg
 

KWG2005

Member
Sep 6, 2023
41
Nashville
Has anyone ever just used a non-stretch bolt, put some blue threadlock and giver it a good 200 ft-lbs of torque? Is it going to get loose or something? I am considering just doing this. What makes this engine so special that it needs a HB bolt tighter than 700 foot pounds? The bolt that came out of mine wans't all that tight, and it's a non -TTY bolt. Obviously someone has been in there and didn't feel like replacing the bolt.
 

mrrsm

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The Short Answer should be... No.

The REASON is that due to the Extreme Length of this In-Line Six Cylinder Engine Block and thus.. the LONG Crankshaft Length...it can develop HORRENDOUS Harmonics along its Longitudinal Axis that will pound Fore and Aft as the RPM Ranges from 600 RPM in the Low to around 6,500 RPM at the Redline.

At the Mid to Upper RPM Ranges... this Crankshaft will actually TWIST along its entire length. If the Harmonic Balancer is NOT completely restrained by using ONLY its OEM Factory TTY Fastener... the Bolt WILL work its way loose and destroy the Motor. Experimenting with using ANY other Non-Designated Crankshaft Fastener to do what will only cost under $20.00 puts all of your other Excellent Re-Build Work in serious jeopardy. Taking Pity on yourself NOW... Means Never Having to Say Your Sorry.

PS... Exceeding the Limits of 110 Foot Pounds followed by Painting a White Streak from the 12:00 to 6:00 Positions and then Rotating the Stretch Bolt 180 Degrees means risking STRIPPING OUT THE INTERNAL THREADS FROM THE HOLLOW PORT IN THE NOSE OF THE CRANKSHAFT. Stick within the "Flex" rate of that TTY Crankshaft Bolt Expanding and Contractng within its Design Limits and you'll avoid having to Re-Build your Motor once the Odd Non-OEM Bolt tears out its Threaded Innards and you have to start all over again..
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,344
Ottawa, ON
I also agree. They are called torque to yield for a reason. They stretch with that amount of torque and any subsequent use will not yield the same amount of stretch and not clamp down as hard as a new one. Think of it as a bungee cord. If it's stretched to its absolute limit and held there for a long time, it will stretch even longer the next time and not hold as well.
 

KWG2005

Member
Sep 6, 2023
41
Nashville
I also agree. They are called torque to yield for a reason. They stretch with that amount of torque and any subsequent use will not yield the same amount of stretch and not clamp down as hard as a new one. Think of it as a bungee cord. If it's stretched to its absolute limit and held there for a long time, it will stretch even longer the next time and not hold as well.
Mooseman, didn't you re-use them before? I thought I saw on a different thread that you used one from a different engine. Aplogies if that was someone else. This TTY bolt just rubs me the wrong way. I'm tempted to do something like threadlocker or tighten it and weld one side of the bolt to the pulley. I will end up just buying a new one since I always end up doing things the right way. I am going to have to research other L6 engines to determine if they do a similar thing. I doubt my Jeep 4.0 has such a massive bolt torque. Then again it's only 190 HP. I wonder if big rigs with 15 liter L6 engines have a bolt on the front that takes over 700 ft/lb to tighten. It just all seems odd to me. BTW, I mentioned before that the bolt that came out of mine doesn't appear to be TTY. It is threaded all the way to the head of the bolt. I found one of the threads you send me about it, someone mentioned the same on theirs, and the below pic is a listing on eBay for a used bolt. Apparently, there are 4.2s out there with a solid threaded bolt. Could it be because it's a 2002, Maybe an early design thing? The 2002 service manual does say to do the 110/180deg sequence. My Bolt looks exactly like the one in the ebay listing below. Has anyone else seen these?

1694447620090.png
 

mrrsm

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This is a Re-Cap of what I wrote back in 2016 concerning WHY TTY Fasteners and their proper installation are so critical to the success of the GM Atlas LL8 4.2L Engines:

TTYEXPLANATION.jpg

As for the dynamic conditions demanding the *Fancy* Beefy TTY Bolt holding on the Harmonic Balancer...it follows on from examining just how much engineering went into designing an additional Friction Washer tucked into the inner Hub Area of the HB to resist coming loose under normal operating conditions:

DSC03734.jpgDSC03733.jpgDSC03732.jpg

The Special Installation Tool Kit shown on the Left Side of this Image is THE One To Use whenever Pressing on the New Harmonic Balancer... and avoid attempting to Draw In the Harmonic Balancer using either Old or the New TTY Bolt:

DSC03604.jpg

Notice how Very Delicate the Small Round PIN inserted into the Slender Nose of the Hollow Threaded Crankshaft of the LL8 Motor really is. THAT is NOT a Woodruff Key... its only purpose is to Key inside of the Crankshaft Cog to Drive the Gerotor Oil Pump and Timing Chain Cog Teeth and serves No Other Purpose in restraining the Harmonic Balancer:

GEROTOROILPUMPSPROCKETPIN.jpeg

And in the very near future...these very same issues of NEVER installing Used TTY Fasteners will appear again when you decide to Install the Aluminum Engine Head using (1) of the (2) Choices for TTY head Bolts. Notice that in all cases... NO TTY FASTENERS ARE FULLY THREADED ALONG THEIR SHANKS:

THESE are the Ones You WANT:

upload_2016-9-14_12-13-20.pnghead bolts.JPG

The Head Bolt Depicted on the RIGHT Side is the Updated Version to choose. (This Image comes courtesy @m.mcmillen 's Epic Engine Build Thread linked below)

 
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KWG2005

Member
Sep 6, 2023
41
Nashville
Does anyone know why my, and seemingly other 4.2s have non TTY bolts? I assume that if the threads go all the way to the head, then it's not TTY. If you go to ebay and type in Trailblazer crankshaft bolt you will see for sale used bolts of both varieties. (I'm not suggesting anyone buy a used bolt). Here is an example from a thread by Ric_Whit on this forum, he has his old pulley next to his new one and the bolts that came with them. The original bolt on the left is like mine, threads all the way to the head. Are these TTY bolts? I haven't tried this but my bolt doesn't look stretched, I bet I can get a M16-2.0 nut and run it all the way up and down w/o a problem.

HB design comparison.png
 

KWG2005

Member
Sep 6, 2023
41
Nashville
Another interesting tidbit... As far as the old style vs new style harmonic balancers go... mine looks like a new style, but has the seal dimensions of the old style. Maybe it was some sort of aftermarket? notice it doesn't have the step on the hub? IMG_20230911_185752326.jpg
 

KWG2005

Member
Sep 6, 2023
41
Nashville
Something else interesting. I found a dorman harmonic balancer bolt on rock auto. It only covers 2003-whatever the last year was. Maybe the bolt with all the threads was 2002 only. This Dorman bolt is only $3.79. Do you all think that the GM part is actually better? or are they made in the same Mexican sweat shop? The dorman one has red stuff on the back of the head rather than the thread.

 

KWG2005

Member
Sep 6, 2023
41
Nashville
I went ahead and ordered the GM part 11609792 from Amazon. I think the bolt with the threads all the way to the head was the bolt that was only used in 2002. It was part number 12568168 and was replaced by 11609792. My guess is that it was not a TTY bolt, and maybe with all that torque it was galling up the threads, so they switched to TTY bolt. Just my guess. I thought about ordering the dorman bolt but it was used for several applications, this engine, the LS engine and some 4-bagers. The other applications require a lot of torque but not as much as the Atlas. It didn't have a washer but instead a washer-like head, I can see that taking some of the torque away from the threads and putting it on the head. I noticed that the GM part is getting harder to find, the GM parts sources say it's discontinued. So if you buy one, it's leftover stock. Going forward we're going to have to start using aftermarket of coming up with another strategy when these bolts are no longer available.
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,344
Ottawa, ON
Mooseman, didn't you re-use them before? I thought I saw on a different thread that you used one from a different engine. Aplogies if that was someone else.
Yes, I did once when I was young and foolish about 12 years ago when I didn't know they were TTY. After I reused the bolt, later, I had a bitch of a time to take the HB off again when I had to.do the timing chain. Had to heat it up with my oxy torches! Did the reused bolt have anything to do with it? Maybe. I won't reuse another one just in case.
 
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mrrsm

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Dude... "You're Punching After The Bell..."

Any Good Philosopher, Scientist, Mathematician, Engineer OR Mechanic worth his Salt will tell you:


"It Is Impossible to Prove a NEGATIVE..."

I'm not exactly certain of why you seem so quick to side-step some very good (and often Hard Won) Mechanical Advice that is staring you right in the face. Who do you intend to convince with your Arguments? I am willing to explain to ANYONE what I have learned about the GMT360 Platform (and others) from Direct, Hands-On Experience in each and every situation Folks asking for Help encounter that a General Search of the GMT Nation Site (or my "Flickr-Bucket" Albums containing the Thousands and others like it) fails to provide.

But... What most of us will "Shine You On" about will be when anyone becomes too much of a "Beater" in pursuit of any Nonsensical or Troll Bait Inquiries that amount to becoming a complete waste of time. Wanna know How You'll KNOW that situation has occurred? When the People here who are the MOST capable of Helping You... Begin to ignore Your Posts.

'Nuff Said...
 
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KWG2005

Member
Sep 6, 2023
41
Nashville
Dude... "You're Punching After The Bell..."

Any Good Philosopher, Scientist, Mathematician, Engineer OR Mechanic worth his Salt will tell you:


"It Is Impossible to Prove a NEGATIVE..."

I'm not exactly certain of why you seem so quick to side-step some very good (and often Hard Won) Mechanical Advice that is staring you right in the face. Who do you intend to convince with your Arguments? I am willing to explain to ANYONE what I have learned about the GMT360 Platform (and others) from Direct, Hands-On Experience in each and every situation Folks asking for Help encounter that a General Search of the GMT Nation Site (or my "Flickr-Bucket" Albums containing the Thousands and others like it) fails to provide.

But... What most of us will "Shine You On" about will be when anyone becomes too much of a "Beater" in pursuit of any Nonsensical or Troll Bait Inquiries that amount to becoming a complete waste of time. Wanna know How You'll KNOW that situation has occurred? When the People here who are the MOST capable of Helping You... Begin to ignore Your Posts.

'Nuff Said...

"When the People here who are the MOST capable of Helping You... Begin to ignore Your Posts."

These Most Capable People here didn't answer my questions.... I had to figure it out on my own. Nobody answer why the bolt that came out of my TB was NOT a TTY bolt. And I discovered that non TTY bolts were coming out of other 2002 TB as well. Turns out the earliest Trailblazers had non TTY bolts and were replaced with a TTY. I had to figure that out on my own. I can just follow along and obey everyone, or I can have real curiosity and inquire as to why things are what they are, and what is the history of this machine. I did as suggested and ordered the TTY bolt as everyone suggested.... but that doesn't satisfy my desire to know why and what the real story is. I apologize for having curiosity. I will go back to just reading these forums and no longer participating in them.
 
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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,344
Ottawa, ON
We are not engineers not do we work for GM. All we can do is assume or guess.

My best guess is that it changed with the balancer. Don't know why they went from a normal to TTY bolt. Maybe they had problems with the first design, which looks heavy.
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,344
Ottawa, ON
Putting a little more thought into this, the 2002 variant of the HB bolt, "looks" like a normal bolt due to threads all the way as opposed to a shank on the later ones. It reminds me of the cam phaser bolt which is TTY and fully threaded. Maybe not all TTY bolts have shanks.

I looked up the HB replacement instructions in SI and neither for the 1st or 2nd design do they say to replace the bolt, just the shim. I also looked up the instructions for the camshaft phaser and it too doesn't say to replace the bolt however one is included with the replacement phaser.

Maybe the idea or replacing the bolt came because it uses the instructions for TTY bolts (torque to X lbs-ft and then YY degrees). Both 1st and 2nd design say 110 lbs-ft and 180 degrees.
 

KWG2005

Member
Sep 6, 2023
41
Nashville
Putting a little more thought into this, the 2002 variant of the HB bolt, "looks" like a normal bolt due to threads all the way as opposed to a shank on the later ones. It reminds me of the cam phaser bolt which is TTY and fully threaded. Maybe not all TTY bolts have shanks.

I looked up the HB replacement instructions in SI and neither for the 1st or 2nd design do they say to replace the bolt, just the shim. I also looked up the instructions for the camshaft phaser and it too doesn't say to replace the bolt however one is included with the replacement phaser.

Maybe the idea or replacing the bolt came because it uses the instructions for TTY bolts (torque to X lbs-ft and then YY degrees). Both 1st and 2nd design say 110 lbs-ft and 180 degrees.

Mooseman, thanks for the input. The X foot pounds + Y degrees of angle means it's a TTA (torque to angle) bolt. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's a TTY bolt. It can be, but might not be as well.

As you probably already know, TTA is handy because it guarantees a certain amount of clamping force without depending on the accuracy of torque wrenches or variables such as rust on a fastener, oil use etc.

However, in the 2002 Service manual it does say "Install the crankshaft balancer and new bolt." and mentions a new bolt in the picture on page 336. Whether it's TTY or not, my guess is it's such a massive amount of torque they think it's best to replace. I was thrown off by some TB having a bolt with no shank, and others having a shank. This sent me down the rabbit hole. I'm glad I got the OEM bolt, but going forward something else will need to suffice since OEM bolts are discontinued.

1694562564900.png
 
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