2006 Envoy Denali 5.3L coolant temp stays at 100

Jkb242

Original poster
Member
May 19, 2019
239
CLT
Even after a few miles of driving preceded by a more than ample warm up period the temp gauge stays at 100 degrees and the fan clutch seems to remain in engaged resulting in the usual low fan noise when it never disengages.

I have replaced the coolant temp sensor and checked everything I know to check, no codes. Have not replaced the fan clutch assembly but running out of time preparing for Christmas road trip. Can anyone offer any suggestion. Hate to simply be a parts changer since fan assembly and water pump are rather time consuming issues. Was wondering if anyone had any other ideas to try.

Thanks
 

Reprise

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Jul 22, 2015
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I don't think you're low on coolant; usually, that leads to overheating, not overcooling. Same for a blockage in the system.

Since you have a radiator cap, you can check that when you first start it up - if the t-stat is stuck open, you may see some fluid movement almost immediately after you start it up (you may need to have someone raise the RPM a bit while you check). I say 'may', b/c the 5.3L is a reverse flow engine - hot coolant flows from engine through bottom radiator hose (once the t-stat opens), feeding the engine with cooled liquid, via the top hose.

If you put new coolant in recently, make sure you're not running pure 100% antifreeze - get a cheap coolant tester and check. 50-50 (w/ distilled water) is optimal; if you live somewhere really, really cold, you can go to 65-70%, but not past there. (if 'clt' is Charlotte, NC, that's not 'cold'... use a 50-50 mix for that area)

If you have a diagnostic tool (even if just a phone-based app like Torque, etc.), engage that, and see what it reports as the temperature, monitoring from the time you start it up 'cold', through when it should be warmed up (yes, I know it's getting that temp from the sensor (that you replaced) reporting back to the ECM.)

If it matches the dash and never rises, then you know the stepper motor / gauge in the dash is OK. If your diag tool reports a good temp back (somewhere between 184F and 195F or so), then you know the stepper motor for that gauge is likely toast. If needed, take it out on the highway for a few miles to see if the temp rises at all.

Make sure you have the diag tool running at all times when you're driving / testing, especially on the highway - last thing you want is to potentially overheat (anything over 220F, is time to pull over and idle or shut down, until you cool off).

Next would be the t-stat (yeah, it's a bit of work to get to; one of the worst things is getting the fan off the WP) Since yours is an '06, I think you have the revised design WP (which uses a standalone t-stat, not one contained / permanently embedded within a neck assembly.) I see you have an '02 as well, but no V8 for that year, so it must have the I6.

Depending on how many miles you have on the truck, replacing the WP, even though it's not leaking, might be good preventative maintenance.

Actually, since you should have the 2nd design pump, you should be able to get to the t-stat by simply disconnecting / removing the lower hose, or at most, the neck for the t-stat, along with the hose (2 x 10mm bolts). If nothing else, you should be able to tell if it's stuck open from there.

Drain the radiator first -- loosen the clamp where the lower hose joins the radiator, and pull it back. Stage your collection pan underneath, then get a fairly sturdy flat-bladed screwdriver, and pry on the *bottom* side where the hose joins the radiator neck. Once you break the seal, It'll start draining, and you can control flow by moving the screwdriver around a bit. After the flow stops completely, you can unbolt the bolts on the t-stat housing (which is at the other end of that lower hose).

To check the t-stat, assuming it's not obviously stuck open... get a pot of tap water (no antifreeze), along with a candy thermometer (or a probe thermometer -- something that can measure past 200F). Put the t-stat in, turn on the burner, and check to see that it opens. It'll probably start opening somewhere between 130F and 150F, and s/b fully open by 185F.

Removing the serpentine will probably give you some room in that area; if you go in through the top, disconnect the top hose (again, at the radiator) for more room, as well. When reinstalling those bolts, tighten them a couple ft-lb tighter than spec (which is 11 ft-lb, IIRC) -- I originally tightened mine to spec, and while towing, I was losing coolant at the t-stat. Took me forever to find it, too, even though I was losing a pint or so a day.

A couple extra ft-lb when I re-tightened it, along with some blue threadlocker on the bolts, and it's been fine ever since. Use a gasket on the t-stat, not sealant, and the same for the WP, if you replace it (you should get replacements with the WP, and the WP gaskets should be metal surrounded by silicone around the edges)

If you weren't in a hurry to make that road trip, I'd say get a tune from @limequat, who'll only charge you $99 to remove the fan codes (and you can replace the viscous clutch with a thermal one (like GM did for the last year of the run, anyway). That's basically what I did with my '03 - my fan clutch was going out, and I mailed my PCM to him, while I replaced the WP (preventative), t-stat, hoses, belts, etc. You can reach him via PM here at the @ symbol I mentioned above; his website is here BTW... if you like getting into the pedal a bit, have him remove (or lower) 'torque mgmt'... it'll wake that 5.3L up.

When you put everything back together, the air bleed for the coolant is done by disconnecting the right side small coolant hose on the bottom of the throttle body (the TB 'preheater' hose). When coolant starts running out of the TB orifice (engine off / cold, of course), and your level in the overflow bottle is correct, the system is full of coolant.

That's all I can think of for now. If none of that works, let's see if others have any addn'l ideas.
Sorry so long... I tried to be thorough. :eek:
 

budwich

Member
Jun 16, 2013
2,045
kanata
temperature gauge motor is fubarred. Get a obd interface and check the temperature that the PCM is seeing.
 

Jkb242

Original poster
Member
May 19, 2019
239
CLT
Thank you Reprise for the extremely knowledgeable response. You make some interesting points that I overlooked by not confirming coolant temp with the scan tool. Man that was a real oversight on my part!!

The gauge sets were all performing perfectly but surely understand the common stepper motor issues which I overlooked as well. Can’t believe these diagnostic tool got past me. Thanks for reminding me. I’ll make measurements and report back. Watching the coolant flow with the cap removed is again a basic tool I totally missed. Wow, that is indeed worrisome, but thanks for this!!

Without question, my main concern is the fan clutch. It’s on full all the time and just started this after replacing the battery but this is purely coincidental I’m sure. I can’t take it on the road with that thing fully engaged with no way to override it. I had a bad tension idler pulley that was just beginning to wobble slightly and knew that was going to be an issue. I thought it might be the source of the original squeal since no squeal after replacement but it returned while attempting to diagnose fan clutch. I am very interested in the idea you suggested of replacing the electric clutch with a thermal sensor for quite a bit cheaper. Any details you can share as to the process to do this?

Again, thanks tremendously for your input.
 

Jkb242

Original poster
Member
May 19, 2019
239
CLT
I don't think you're low on coolant; usually, that leads to overheating, not overcooling. Same for a blockage in the system.

Since you have a radiator cap, you can check that when you first start it up - if the t-stat is stuck open, you may see some fluid movement almost immediately after you start it up (you may need to have someone raise the RPM a bit while you check). I say 'may', b/c the 5.3L is a reverse flow engine - hot coolant flows from engine through bottom radiator hose (once the t-stat opens), feeding the engine with cooled liquid, via the top hose.

If you put new coolant in recently, make sure you're not running pure 100% antifreeze - get a cheap coolant tester and check. 50-50 (w/ distilled water) is optimal; if you live somewhere really, really cold, you can go to 65-70%, but not past there. (if 'clt' is Charlotte, NC, that's not 'cold'... use a 50-50 mix for that area)

If you have a diagnostic tool (even if just a phone-based app like Torque, etc.), engage that, and see what it reports as the temperature, monitoring from the time you start it up 'cold', through when it should be warmed up (yes, I know it's getting that temp from the sensor (that you replaced) reporting back to the ECM.)

If it matches the dash and never rises, then you know the stepper motor / gauge in the dash is OK. If your diag tool reports a good temp back (somewhere between 184F and 195F or so), then you know the stepper motor for that gauge is likely toast. If needed, take it out on the highway for a few miles to see if the temp rises at all.

Make sure you have the diag tool running at all times when you're driving / testing, especially on the highway - last thing you want is to potentially overheat (anything over 220F, is time to pull over and idle or shut down, until you cool off).

Next would be the t-stat (yeah, it's a bit of work to get to; one of the worst things is getting the fan off the WP) Since yours is an '06, I think you have the revised design WP (which uses a standalone t-stat, not one contained / permanently embedded within a neck assembly.) I see you have an '02 as well, but no V8 for that year, so it must have the I6.

Depending on how many miles you have on the truck, replacing the WP, even though it's not leaking, might be good preventative maintenance.

Actually, since you should have the 2nd design pump, you should be able to get to the t-stat by simply disconnecting / removing the lower hose, or at most, the neck for the t-stat, along with the hose (2 x 10mm bolts). If nothing else, you should be able to tell if it's stuck open from there.

Drain the radiator first -- loosen the clamp where the lower hose joins the radiator, and pull it back. Stage your collection pan underneath, then get a fairly sturdy flat-bladed screwdriver, and pry on the *bottom* side where the hose joins the radiator neck. Once you break the seal, It'll start draining, and you can control flow by moving the screwdriver around a bit. After the flow stops completely, you can unbolt the bolts on the t-stat housing (which is at the other end of that lower hose).

To check the t-stat, assuming it's not obviously stuck open... get a pot of tap water (no antifreeze), along with a candy thermometer (or a probe thermometer -- something that can measure past 200F). Put the t-stat in, turn on the burner, and check to see that it opens. It'll probably start opening somewhere between 130F and 150F, and s/b fully open by 185F.

Removing the serpentine will probably give you some room in that area; if you go in through the top, disconnect the top hose (again, at the radiator) for more room, as well. When reinstalling those bolts, tighten them a couple ft-lb tighter than spec (which is 11 ft-lb, IIRC) -- I originally tightened mine to spec, and while towing, I was losing coolant at the t-stat. Took me forever to find it, too, even though I was losing a pint or so a day.

A couple extra ft-lb when I re-tightened it, along with some blue threadlocker on the bolts, and it's been fine ever since. Use a gasket on the t-stat, not sealant, and the same for the WP, if you replace it (you should get replacements with the WP, and the WP gaskets should be metal surrounded by silicone around the edges)

If you weren't in a hurry to make that road trip, I'd say get a tune from @limequat, who'll only charge you $99 to remove the fan codes (and you can replace the viscous clutch with a thermal one (like GM did for the last year of the run, anyway). That's basically what I did with my '03 - my fan clutch was going out, and I mailed my PCM to him, while I replaced the WP (preventative), t-stat, hoses, belts, etc. You can reach him via PM here at the @ symbol I mentioned above; his website is here BTW... if you like getting into the pedal a bit, have him remove (or lower) 'torque mgmt'... it'll wake that 5.3L up.

When you put everything back together, the air bleed for the coolant is done by disconnecting the right side small coolant hose on the bottom of the throttle body (the TB 'preheater' hose). When coolant starts running out of the TB orifice (engine off / cold, of course), and your level in the overflow bottle is correct, the system is full of coolant.

That's all I can think of for now. If none of that works, let's see if others have any addn'l ideas.
Sorry so long... I tried to be thorough. :eek:

UPDATE UPDATE
Today after a cold start and with scanner in hand took your suggestion and found that the coolant temp being reported is indeed normal and temp guage now agrees. Fan clutch also seems to be disengaging around 198F. Idling up to 2000RPM shows minor temp increase with quiet or normal fan. How weird is that. How scary is that as well?

Could it be that connection and disconnection of the battery negative happen to catch the temp stepper motor in a null position that somehow did not get reset? I guess it possible but that would not explain the persistent fan noise. Possibly actual temp was fine but that is not something we can know since I did not make a positive determination of the coolant temp until today. I will road test to day and tomorrow from cold and slightly warm starts and make the same observations while driving in real conditions. I had noticed before the troubling findings that it was taking a little longer for the fan noise to go to a normal operating mode but having it hard fail is suppose is not all that atypical. After the road tests I should have a reasonable indication of these issues with respects to repeatability. Naturally, if these two symptoms return relatively soon, it is and indication of a real component failure.

On another subject, I need to find an inline wire connector for the temp sensor I replaced that will allow a sealed water tight connection of the sensor connector I had to replace as mine had broken to the pair of wires in the harness leading to the computer. The short length of the harness and the very tight space in which to work makes this a difficult splice. Butt in-line crimps are not water tight and difficult to make to the harness. l need a small crimp water tight connection point I can electrically and mechanically establish a long term solution. Can your point me to something I could use that is small but secure. Thanks so much and looking forward to your comments on the other question I sent you earlier.
 

Reprise

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Supporting Donor
Member
Jul 22, 2015
2,724
For the wiring, you can use heat shrink tape. Best is to solder the connections; if you can't solder, use a military splice. Check resistance afterward with an ohm meter to make sure the extra wire didn't alter the value outside of acceptable range (very doubtful, if it's a short length of wire in same gauge)

On the fan clutch, the one to get is from Hayden. Search this site, and you'll find the model #. First, order up the part.
Next, get your tune ordered, and send out your ECM (if you can't have the truck down for a few days, Jeremy (lime-swap) has loaners. Contact him for details.)

You're going to trace the wiring harness from the existing fan clutch to a connector on the driver's side of the fan shroud (outer). IIRC, the connector is purple (interior). You unplug the harness at that connector, tape it off, and tuck it away. It won't be used any longer, as the tune will tell the ECM not to worry about the missing signal.

The Hayden clutch is thermostatic; no wiring. It has a temp sensor that turns it on / off at a set range thanks to a thermistor. The full-size pickups / SUVs of the same era use this arrangement (they still may).

Again, search the site, as I know there are at least two write ups w/ pics, etc. The hard part is the clutch nut, both removing (an air hammer works wonders, if you have access to air tools), and threading it back on (superfine thread and can *easily* be cross threaded -- so be careful). Don't worry about a torque value for that nut, as centrifugal force will keep the nut tight. Just get it nice & snug. Again... go over the tutorials -- there's good info there. Gonna end here, as I typed this out on my phone. :eek:
 

Jkb242

Original poster
Member
May 19, 2019
239
CLT
Fantastic! Thanks so much! I decided last night soldering was the best bet with heatshrink, I'v been doing this forever but not so much in the vehicle. Your suggestion to solder is spot on for sure. My HAKKO was a little too big for the task as its a desk station. I picked up a 30 watt iron that will do the trick.

The engine tune is very interesting. In fact the guys at PCM of NC in Huntersville was my go to for the ECM that failed in this vehicle about 1 1/2 years ago. They did a great job for me and I was out the door in under an hour just had to endure the learning cycle for a day or so. Jeremy was awesome! What would one expect to see in terms of MPG for the torque mod that you suggested? Could the clutch bypass be applied at the same time. These clutches are so expensive for the really good ones worth buying.

I done the water pump and clutch on the 2002 Envoy I gave to me daughter but had to redo it due the Durlast not being so lasting, live and learn, was unaware that these are junk. But Autozone refunded me full cash a year later no questions asked, impressive at least.

Thanks again for the information!!
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,332
Ottawa, ON
You could definitely turn off the fan codes with a tune and get a thermo clutch fan from an '08 TB. Cheaper and less failure prone. Jeremy (@limequat ) at lime-swap.com can do a mail order tune for just $99 shipping included. A tune on the 5.3 really wakes up this beast. Don't expect any MPG improvements though especially if you get DOD turned off.

For water pumps, ACDelco all the way.
 

Jkb242

Original poster
Member
May 19, 2019
239
CLT
Interesting as the seems I’m pretty pleased with the performance if I kick it down but I’m also aware of the oil seepage from the DOD or so it seems. Getting into it also seems to exacerbate the oil issue too. It is indeed tempting. Merry Christmas to all!
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,332
Ottawa, ON
That's what I thought too until I got the tune! Well worth it.
 

Bow_Tied

Member
Dec 21, 2014
453
London, ON
I'd like to share something that is related to your cooling system, but is unrelated to the issue you just had. Don't use your block heater overnight when it is warmer than -19C. This puts the temp sensor out of a range and the computer thinks the engine never warmed up - the second start of the day, if no cool down time between, will cause the engine to flood itself trying to cold start when it is warm. Just a friendly tip from a former '06 Denali owner.
 

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