2004 TB I6 3.42 158K miles first camper tow 200+ miles each way

Rhizzlebop

Original poster
Member
May 3, 2019
22
South Carolina
Hi all,
I used to post over at TV, but seems a bit dead and I discovered that this forum had been created at some point.

We did 4 days at Stone Mountain so towed about 220 miles each way. Temp going was about 75, return was about 80F. This was I-20 from columbia to Atl mostly

Our camper is a 23 ft hybrid that’s 4100 dry and prob close to 5000 loaded plus my wife and two young boys in car seats.

I use 1,2,3 like a straight drive letting off the gas between shifts.

The engine temp according to the dash gauge ran just a hair right of straight up but on a climb it would go up almost 3 bars which I figured was close to 228. After the crest it would slide back to 215.

I tried to run 65 at times and really about 60-62 on the way back because the wind was moving me around more.

Usually on a slight grade it would drop from 65 to 58-60. A bigger grade would drop under 55. If it reached 50 I’d drop into 2 which would jump to 3500 rpm and I’d hold it to 4000 at which I’d be above 60 and go back to 3rd gear.

Just a few weeks ago I had a separate transmission cooler added, both hoses changes (gates), new belt (gates), and rear diff checked, and drained and filled the radiator with fresh stuff. He’s a long time experienced and trusted mechanic. But I don’t know what he used. He’s a retired trooper.

Back at 95k miles I changed the water pump at the time I was fixing the roaring fan issue. I did it because after the hell getting the fan clutch off, I figured i'd go ahead and replace it, and it had some shaft wiggle anyway. I used the OEM one from Rock Auto.

For what I was pulling and the age and engine I thought it did well. I never floored it, accelerated easy let off to shift and tried to never let the TC unlock.

My only little mental bug was about the temp reaching that upper range 228 based on the gauge. Should I be concerned?

We’re going to the beach in July when temps will be upper 90s and if my confidence grows at some point I’d like to go into the Smokey mountains but that may not be possible. I figure if I do that then Saluda grade on I-40 will be in 2nd gear at about 25-30 mph which is why they have a slow lane there because it’s a nasty climb.

Thoughts from the experienced here? A bigger tow vehicle is not on our radar for at least 2 years when our van is paid off.

It has been suggested that I get a bluetooth obd2 monitor, and use some torque app. Any suggestions on what I need to get that set up? PID was mentioned which I have no idea what that is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: streetbober

Blckshdw

Moderator
Nov 20, 2011
10,665
Tampa Bay Area, FL
Bluetooth adapters can be found pretty cheap on Amazon/Ebay, as they are a dime a dozen, as long as your phone isn't an iPhone. In that case you'd need a wifi adapter to work with Torque. The Torque app is free for scanning trouble codes, but costs $5 (last time I checked) for the realtime data feature.

In the apps settings, you can add some pre-defined sets of PIDs (stands for Parameter ID, basically how sensors are identified) that aren't installed by default. Here's a few screen shots, once you get to the list, there's an option that includes GM. It's been years since I did this, but I believe the transmission fluid temp is the big one that needs this step. The default tranny temp option doesn't read our platform.

From Settings, go to "Manage extra PIDs/Sensors" near the bottom
Then select the menu option from the top right corner to bring up the list, and tap "Add predefined set"
Select "Pontiac/GM/Opel/Vauxhall"

Screenshot_20190503-083820_Torque.jpg Screenshot_20190503-083830_Torque.jpg Screenshot_20190503-083842_Torque.jpg

Then when you go back into the dashboard to add the gauges/charts that you want, the additional sensor options will be on the list. You may need to add multiple options at first, to see which one returns values, and then delete the ones that stay empty. Hopefully this helps some.

Screenshot_20190503-084847_Torque.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: mrrsm and Mooseman

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Do you know what gears you have? If you have the 3.42, it's not the best for towing, especially with the 4.2. I have a 1200# aluminum covered snowmobile trailer and it sometimes has trouble towing it against the wind since it's like a big sail. And I have the 3.42 gears as well. 4.10 with that engine would be best.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about that engine temp and would consider it normal to be a little higher when it is snorting harder to tow, especially if the A/C is on. Now if it were more like halfway to the next tick, I'd start worrying. On top of the tranny temp, you can also get the real engine temp with Torque as the dash gauge tends to lie a little.

Check to see if your fan clutch is working correctly:
How to test the electro-viscous fan clutch
 

Rhizzlebop

Original poster
Member
May 3, 2019
22
South Carolina
Bluetooth adapters can be found pretty cheap on Amazon/Ebay, as they are a dime a dozen, as long as your phone isn't an iPhone. In that case you'd need a wifi adapter to work with Torque. The Torque app is free for scanning trouble codes, but costs $5 (last time I checked) for the realtime data feature.

In the apps settings, you can add some pre-defined sets of PIDs (stands for Parameter ID, basically how sensors are identified) that aren't installed by default. Here's a few screen shots, once you get to the list, there's an option that includes GM. It's been years since I did this, but I believe the transmission fluid temp is the big one that needs this step. The default tranny temp option doesn't read our platform.

From Settings, go to "Manage extra PIDs/Sensors" near the bottom
Then select the menu option from the top right corner to bring up the list, and tap "Add predefined set"
Select "Pontiac/GM/Opel/Vauxhall"

View attachment 88403 View attachment 88405 View attachment 88404

Then when you go back into the dashboard to add the gauges/charts that you want, the additional sensor options will be on the list. You may need to add multiple options at first, to see which one returns values, and then delete the ones that stay empty. Hopefully this helps some.

View attachment 88406
So I do have an iPhone. A quick google showed some amazon odb2 units with Wi-Fi for as low as $15 bucks. Is that the type of item I need? I don’t mind $5 for the torque app. If it’s relaticely easy to setup then great. I’m guessing connecting the app to it will download a bunch of possible sensor points (lack of correct term) but when you start driving only some will populate. So I add most of those and wait to see which ones actually report data when driving and delete the rest?? If that’s all seems simple enough.
 

Blckshdw

Moderator
Nov 20, 2011
10,665
Tampa Bay Area, FL
The OBD2 wifi adapter is the one you need then. :yes:

When setting up torque, I find it easiest to have the vehicle running and the phone connected. When you're setting things up, you'll choose the type of graph and size first, then it will ask you what sensor you want assigned to it. From the list, any sensors actively sending data should be highlighted in green. I remember adding all of the transmission options at one point, and then removing the dead ones.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mooseman

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
  • Like
Reactions: Blckshdw

Rhizzlebop

Original poster
Member
May 3, 2019
22
South Carolina
Heard from others that Torque for iOS isn't available. Looking in our Diagnostics section, Dash Command came up as a good app but is pricier:
app for iOS that runs GM enhanced ?

More:

I see one in the App Store called OBD2 Torque. It’s $4.99. That’s fine. But for the scan tool are we saying it has to be wifi instead of Bluetooth to be compatible with iPhone? That would seem really odd.

I also see recommendations for Dash Command for $9.95, and apparently some specific info for chevy is another $10.
 
Last edited:

Reprise

Lifetime VIP Donor
Supporting Donor
Member
Jul 22, 2015
2,724
Congrats for using that tow hitch! I'll try and keep this in bullet points; you can circle back with anything you have questions on. But I'll fail. I always fail...lol.

- Adding that trans cooler was the best thing you could've done for the trans.

- With that kind of weight on your truck, a weight distribution hitch is really needed. Didn't see you mention that you had one. Some come with integrated anti-sway, which is also good to have.

- You're at about the max GVWR for your truck. Try not to add too much more in the way of cargo, and don't tow up elevations with full water tanks ('some' is ok. 'full' isn't).

- I looked up the Saluda grade. Highest point seems to be the town of Saluda, at 2,097ft. That's not bad. It's a little steep, climbing 600ft in < 3mi, at a little less than 5% grade. The good news - you can handle it.

- When climbing, you want the converter *unlocked* when possible. Whatever you do, don't let it constantly go back / forth. The converter *can* lock in 3rd, so be aware. Unfortunately, our platform never had a tow/haul mode available.

- Don't be afraid to use the motor on a climb. If you can't hold 3rd reliably, keep it in 2nd up the hill. I'm not familiar with the HP / torque curve on the 4.2, but I know it comes in at a relatively low RPM, being a DOHC. As long as you're in the powerband, stay in it. You have a rev limiter, so you're safe, there. Learn all of this info, so you're prepared.

- Downhill, on a steep grade, you'll probably want to be 1 gear lower than the one you went up in (no lower than '2', generally). It can be tough not to ride your brakes downhill (especially on a curvy descent), but avoid doing so. Good pads are essential.

- Yes, get a ODB-II phone app, and make sure it can read coolant temp & transmission temp. The I-6 doesn't have a 'real' gauge (you can find a lot on this site about it). As far as the trans temp, it will climb in tandem with the coolant (but not at the same temp / rate). I've had mine up to 235F or so (no ill effects). At 275F, Dexron is toast (and so is your trans). So be aware once your trans temp passes 225-230F. As for the coolant...yeah, you probably don't want to be north of 230F for very long.

- Since you opened up the cooling system & replaced parts, keep an eye on the level as you start each day's towing. I had new WP, t-stat, belts, yada, yada - and my first big trip out west, I was losing a little coolant each day. Turned out the stress on the motor caused a leak around the t-stat housing (bolts had been torqued to spec; I tightened a couple of extra ft/lb and used blue locker - no more leaks). But every day on that trip, I was adding coolant.

- Speaking of coolant, having some with you (along with distilled water) can be helpful. And oil. And a funnel, along with some basic tools.

- If your trailer has load range 'C' tires, make sure not to exceed 65mph with them. They are called 'china bombs' for a reason. :sadcry: A good tire inflation gauge is essential. If you want extra 'insurance', get one of the infrared thermometer gadgets from HF. An inflator is good, of course. If you really want to play it safe, aftermarket TPMS kits are available. If you have those little indicators on the valve stems (green / yellow / red) - you'll learn not to put a lot of trust in them.

I think that's about all for now.
 

Blckshdw

Moderator
Nov 20, 2011
10,665
Tampa Bay Area, FL
I see one in the App Store called OBD2 Torque. It’s $4.99. That’s fine.

The app that we're talking about, is not the same one you found. The person who created the Android version has not created an IOS version.

But for the scan tool are we saying it has to be wifi instead of Bluetooth to be compatible with iPhone?

I don't remember all of the issues, but yeah... For iPhone users, they've only had success (around here) when using the wifi adapters, instead of bluetooth ones.
 

Rhizzlebop

Original poster
Member
May 3, 2019
22
South Carolina
Congrats for using that tow hitch! I'll try and keep this in bullet points; you can circle back with anything you have questions on. But I'll fail. I always fail...lol.

- Adding that trans cooler was the best thing you could've done for the trans.

- With that kind of weight on your truck, a weight distribution hitch is really needed. Didn't see you mention that you had one. Some come with integrated anti-sway, which is also good to have.

- You're at about the max GVWR for your truck. Try not to add too much more in the way of cargo, and don't tow up elevations with full water tanks ('some' is ok. 'full' isn't).

- I looked up the Saluda grade. Highest point seems to be the town of Saluda, at 2,097ft. That's not bad. It's a little steep, climbing 600ft in < 3mi, at a little less than 5% grade. The good news - you can handle it.

- When climbing, you want the converter *unlocked* when possible. Whatever you do, don't let it constantly go back / forth. The converter *can* lock in 3rd, so be aware. Unfortunately, our platform never had a tow/haul mode available.

- Don't be afraid to use the motor on a climb. If you can't hold 3rd reliably, keep it in 2nd up the hill. I'm not familiar with the HP / torque curve on the 4.2, but I know it comes in at a relatively low RPM, being a DOHC. As long as you're in the powerband, stay in it. You have a rev limiter, so you're safe, there. Learn all of this info, so you're prepared.

- Downhill, on a steep grade, you'll probably want to be 1 gear lower than the one you went up in (no lower than '2', generally). It can be tough not to ride your brakes downhill (especially on a curvy descent), but avoid doing so. Good pads are essential.

- Yes, get a ODB-II phone app, and make sure it can read coolant temp & transmission temp. The I-6 doesn't have a 'real' gauge (you can find a lot on this site about it). As far as the trans temp, it will climb in tandem with the coolant (but not at the same temp / rate). I've had mine up to 235F or so (no ill effects). At 275F, Dexron is toast (and so is your trans). So be aware once your trans temp passes 225-230F. As for the coolant...yeah, you probably don't want to be north of 230F for very long.

- Since you opened up the cooling system & replaced parts, keep an eye on the level as you start each day's towing. I had new WP, t-stat, belts, yada, yada - and my first big trip out west, I was losing a little coolant each day. Turned out the stress on the motor caused a leak around the t-stat housing (bolts had been torqued to spec; I tightened a couple of extra ft/lb and used blue locker - no more leaks). But every day on that trip, I was adding coolant.

- Speaking of coolant, having some with you (along with distilled water) can be helpful. And oil. And a funnel, along with some basic tools.

- If your trailer has load range 'C' tires, make sure not to exceed 65mph with them. They are called 'china bombs' for a reason. :sadcry: A good tire inflation gauge is essential. If you want extra 'insurance', get one of the infrared thermometer gadgets from HF. An inflator is good, of course. If you really want to play it safe, aftermarket TPMS kits are available. If you have those little indicators on the valve stems (green / yellow / red) - you'll learn not to put a lot of trust in them.

I think that's about all for now.


Hi, Not sure what you meant by "congrats on that tow hitch". What hitch are you referring to?

I do have a load dist hitch. It came with the camper when we bought it used. Its got the two chains and bars, and the flip levers on both sides.

We only tow with min water in the black tank, and no grey or fresh.

Around here, that Saluda grade on I-40 is THE test of the tow vehicles abilities. They have a third lane there for heavy vehicles and some can only manage 20 MPH through there.

What do you mean that you want the converter unlocked? I thought you wanted it locked in as much as possible and not building friction heat burning up the trans?

Here is how I drove it down I-20. I'd run in 3rd, and get up to 60-65, on a small hill it would drop to 60- then 55, (keeping the throttle down just as far as I could without the engine revving higher or shifting (indicating TC unlocking) if it fell down close to 50, I'd let off the gas, shift to 2nd, and once shifted reapply throttle at which now my RPM would jump to around 3400. I'd ride that power curve back up to about 4000 RPM, and would be at about 62 MPH. Then Id let off and shift back to 3rd, and once shifted, go back into the throttle.

I ALWAYS tried to keep the converter in lockup to so keep the heat down. So, you confuse me when you say you want it unlocked climbing?

I'm familiar with heavy loads downhill. I was driving my dads 34ft class A RV through the mountains at 16 yrs old. If you have to use the brake, I go more heavy for short burst, and get off and let it roll to recool, and gear down when possible. Often with these campers, the wind load will hold you back more than anything.

I just ordered a $15 wifi scanner tool and plan to by and download dash commander. Hope from there it'll be easy to get it to read temps.

I need to check my fluids but I honestly have not done that.

As for tires, I put brand new Maxxiss T8008 tires on in March. They are rated at either 7-75. I did lots of research on china bombs and avoided those at all cost. From my research Ill only buy Maxxis or Goodyear Endurance.

I have an IR thermometer gun. What would I be measuring with that?

Also, next trip out I'll be carrying a little oil, coolant and water or coolant blend. So get Dexcool?
 

Reprise

Lifetime VIP Donor
Supporting Donor
Member
Jul 22, 2015
2,724
>>>Hi, Not sure what you meant by "congrats on that tow hitch". What hitch are you referring to?

The one attached to your tow vehicle (TV). 'Receiver' might have been preferred - ?

>>>I do have a load dist hitch. It came with the camper when we bought it used. Its got the two chains and bars, and the flip levers on both sides.

Good deal. I forgot to mention it in my response, but a trailer brake controller is good to have, too, even more so when you're near max weight.

>>>We only tow with min water in the black tank, and no grey or fresh.

Perfect, for your scenario. I used to be in the habit of always filling my FW tank when I had access to water before heading out. And / or having grey on board, if I'd been boondocking. Once I figured out that that water was making it harder to get up the mountains, I stopped.

>>>Around here, that Saluda grade on I-40 is THE test of the tow vehicles abilities. They have a third lane there for heavy vehicles and some can only manage 20 MPH through there.

No argument that it might be the 'biggest' in your area. I'm just saying that I know you can make it up 2800' @ 5% grade. Maybe not at the speed limit, but you'll make it. I've been at 8800' with similar weight / steeper grade with mine. Not 'bragging', just giving you some sense of what's possible. Yes, I do have the LWB / V8, which helps a (little) bit.


>>>What do you mean that you want the converter unlocked? I thought you wanted it locked in as much as possible and not building friction heat burning up the trans?

When I saw this, I decided to do some more research. This was the best info I found on short notice. And you'll see that even these guys go back & forth on "does it / does it not / should it / should it not lockup", etc. Note that the best info here regards the GMT-900 series ('00-'06 'Classic'), as GM altered how T/H operates in the '07-forward (they stopped raising line pressure, and simply kept the shift logic / mapping in place)

Quick takeaways - with T/H engaged...
- GM would engage lockup as low as 25mph.
- 4th gear lockup would not occur until a full 65mph - and would drop out / be forced out under this speed.


Back to your argument...
On *level* ground, yes, it's good to be in lockup. There are even some with the full-size PU that will disengage Tow/Haul if they know they'll be on the flats, as they can see the trans running cooler by *not* using T/H.

As for why I use T/H as a comparison - I think we would agree that it does help guard against wear on a transmission when towing. And since many of the 1/2 ton PU had a 4L60e during the time when our 360s were new, I think it's a valid comparison.

(btw, it's possible to enable T/H on *some* 360s; I was going to pursue that, but decided to upgrade to a full-size PU to pull my trailer, so I don't tow heavy with the Voy any longer.)

There's another factor that comes into play with the 360/370 platform (which has a 4L60e), and that's that the transmission is programmed to use Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) - it is effectively continually slipping the converter. So you don't have 'true' lockup, as a result. (There are ways around that, depending on how handy / comfy you are with working on a valve body - search on 'Transgo' on this site, and you'll run into a bunch of stuff).

Back to our converter. When the converter is locked -- and can *stay* locked -- the fluid will be at its coolest. But when the converter goes back / forth, on a prolonged, high load / high RPM scenario, it does the opposite.

When you're climbing (and I mean something prolonged, not just a small hill), trying to put the trans in the highest gear you can manage (let's assume 3rd, in our case) will allow it to attempt locking the converter, due to the lower RPM. But there is effectively no 2nd gear lockup. So if the trans forces down to 2nd...yeah, I know it's noisy, but at least the converter is out of the picture. You'll still get a rise in temp - but it will be slower.


>>>Here is how I drove it down I-20. I'd run in 3rd, and get up to 60-65, on a small hill it would drop to 60- then 55, (keeping the throttle down just as far as I could without the engine revving higher or shifting (indicating TC unlocking) if it fell down close to 50, I'd let off the gas, shift to 2nd, and once shifted reapply throttle at which now my RPM would jump to around 3400. I'd ride that power curve back up to about 4000 RPM, and would be at about 62 MPH. Then Id let off and shift back to 3rd, and once shifted, go back into the throttle.

Going back & forth between 2nd / 3rd like that is creating more heat, IMO. I think you'd be better off, once the PCM / TCM decides that 2nd is where you need to be, not to go back / forth between 2nd / 3rd. Yes, higher RPM means higher temp. But shifting back & forth means higher temp than that. Give it a try, once you get your app / OBD reader.

>>> I ALWAYS tried to keep the converter in lockup to so keep the heat down. So, you confuse me when you say you want it unlocked climbing?

When you're on an extended grade, you're fighting a losing battle trying to keep it locked. The exception would be if you've got something like a DMax, where you can maintain 65-70 up steep grade without trouble (within limit...using your 5000lb as an example, which is really child's play for a diesel)

>>>I'm familiar with heavy loads downhill. I was driving my dads 34ft class A RV through the mountains at 16 yrs old. If you have to use the brake, I go more heavy for short burst, and get off and let it roll to recool, and gear down when possible. Often with these campers, the wind load will hold you back more than anything.

I didn't know your experience level with towing; my assumption, since you asked for tips, was that you were somewhat inexperienced. BTW -- don't expect that 'big sail' of a trailer to overcome gravity, when you're descending long / steep grades, the same way it does when you're trying to maintain speed on flats. It don't work that way - trust me :laugh:


>>>As for tires, I put brand new Maxxiss T8008 tires on in March. They are rated at either 7-75. I did lots of research on china bombs and avoided those at all cost. From my research Ill only buy Maxxis or Goodyear Endurance.

Again, good deal. There are *some* non-USA TT tires that are OK. Again, with your *assumed* experience level, I wanted to make sure you knew that almost all 'OEM' TT tires were not very good. Enough said.

>>>I have an IR thermometer gun. What would I be measuring with that?

As a tire heats up, it becomes more likely to fail. Towing at high speed / hot summer temps, having one of these to quickly point at the sidewall when you pull over for gas, etc. - can be helpful. Since you have one, bring it along on your next trip. You can use them on your TV tires, too :wink:
PS: I've never seen my 'china bombs' go higher than mid-90s (F), even after towing diagonally across Montana - a 14hr day (when you have reservations in a Nat'l park that you'll lose if you don't show up, you do what you have to to get there before the ranger station closes). But I was glad I had the temp gun, that day.


>>>Also, next trip out I'll be carrying a little oil, coolant and water or coolant blend. So get Dexcool?

Most of us do use Dexcool (and tend to steer toward OEM parts, especially for electronics or stuff that you don't want to replace twice, due to where it's at, etc.) I've not had problems with Dexcool. Can you use something else? Sure. Just make sure that if you switch, that you get ALL of the Dex out of the system. It's when you mix it with other types that you get problems. Dexcool uses Organic Acid Tech (OAT), which doesn't mix well with glycol-based coolants. Yes, there are 'universal' coolants out there now. Since my used GM trucks had Dexcool in them, it's easy for me to keep them that way.

The other thing that people snipe about with Dexcool is that it can play havoc with intake gaskets on some engines. Since I have LS-based engines, that's not a problem for me. But it might be on the 4.2L. I don't hear our other members complaining too much, and only about 10% of the people here have the V8 (mostly LWB and TBSS peeps).

If you want to save a little money, get the concentrate, and mix it with distilled water. Yes, it's $2 difference, and you'll spend $1 on a gallon of distilled water. But you'll end up with TWO gallons of coolant.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mooseman

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
One thing you can do to help with tranny heat with the TCC lockup is to modify its solenoid so it doesn't do the PWM slip and will feel like a 5th gear.


Another thing you could do is get a tune specifically for towing. The shift points could be permanently set as if it was like tow/haul mode on other trucks but it would always be like that. Have a chat with @limequat as he tunes these trucks a lot and is priced quite reasonably. He could also tune out the TCC PWM instead of having to do the solenoid mod.

And with that new aux cooler, it will help a lot in dissipating that extra heat while towing. Because you didn't have one before, I would recommend a tranny fluid change in case it did get hot. I would do a full fluid exchange:

Transmission Fluid Exchange (Flush)
 

Rhizzlebop

Original poster
Member
May 3, 2019
22
South Carolina
Just to follow up on this thread, and the super helpful posts you guys dropped for me...

I have gotten my wifi odbII monitor, and bought the Dash command app, AND the GM extended dataset. All in about $43, 23 for the device and 10 for the app and 10 more for the extended PID set.

I have NOT towed again yet however. I did test it a couple days on my commute. The engine temp ran 196 driving, and when I'd stop it would go up to 198-201, depending.

The trans temp climbed slowly and steadily all the way through my 35 minute commute.
The highest I've seen it was 174 F. This was on an 85F day.

My understanding is when I AM towing, I want to keep the trans temp under about 250 MAX for short times, and preferably under 225 F I think during general towing.

I don't have a baseline of what the trans temps ran before the cooler was installed, so I can't say how much cooler it is now.

We'll be towing first of July, so I will report back.
 

Rhizzlebop

Original poster
Member
May 3, 2019
22
South Carolina
So, one more followup as we're heading out on our next trip this Sat morning.
I went this past Sat and brought the camper to our house to install a power tongue jack and a bike rack. It's only 4 miles between houses, but when we get to our house, our drive way slopes up, and theres a dip at the curb.
So, previously, I built from treated 2x6, 3 sections of "grating" that is about 4ft long, than spans the driveway entrance to keep the wheels from going in the dip, and keeps the bumper of the trailer from bottoming out.
This, in addition to the fact that I have to back it in from a steep side angle to the driveway, and then adjust and push it up the hill, it's prob 10 minutes of heavy strain on the TB under load, and no speed, shoving prob 4400 lb up the driveway thats prob at 6% grade.

When we got it positioned, I checked my phone app, and read 234F engine temp.
We put it in park, revved the engine a bit and in about 4 minutes it came down to 220, at which point we went ahead and turned it off.
It gurgled into the reservoir. for prob 15 minutes. Hopefully it wasn't too high to do any damage, and I really am not 100% clear at what point damage occurs.

I feel like I've gathered that above 250F is bigtime danger.
However, with water boiling at 212F at atmospheric pressure, 8 PSI at 234, and 15 PSI at 250F. I would think the pressure relief would blow before 250, which would depressurize and cause an instant boil.

Tonight when I get home, I'm gonna try giving a heavy water spray from the backside of the radiator, its been sitting undriven since sat, hooked to the camper. I also ordered a 12 oz bottle of Redline wetterwet stuff. Supposed to help lower engine temp. I was planning to open the radiator cap, and see if there's room to add it, and if not, just suck some liquid out with papertowels till I can get most in, and dump the rest in the reservoir. I figured it might help, but prob wont hurt.

Silly question, but would opening the radiator cap allow air into the system?

Side note, I had trouble getting my fridge to work for 3 days till I finally measured the angle and found the camper to still be tilted downhill more than 3 degrees. After raising it just to the 3 degree limit my fridge lists in the specs, its running, but my trailblazer looks like the back tires are about to come off the ground. I've got blocks under ALL the wheels.

So far driving around with the gauge, not towing, I see my trans is around 177-180 F. Wont really know more on that till we hit the road sat. I'm nervous about the temps becasue its gonna get to mid 90s sat, and be loaded around 5000 lb, plus me, my wife, and 2 kids in car seats. Gonna hit the rd about 8:30 and plan to be there around noon.
 

Blckshdw

Moderator
Nov 20, 2011
10,665
Tampa Bay Area, FL
Silly question, but would opening the radiator cap allow air into the system?

Not enough to be a problem. You've got coolant in the neck of the radiator, so if a little bit of air gets in there, when the system warms up and pressurizes, that bubble would get pushed into the overflow tank. Now if you siphoned off enough coolant to allow air into the upper tank of the radiator and didn't top it off, maybe that could cause an issue.

If you have access to one, you could use a fluid transfer pump, to pull some coolant out of the radiator and into a clean bottle. Add your Water Wetter, and then dump the pulled coolant back into the reservoir tank that way. :twocents:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mooseman

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
I think it went too high for what you were doing. The fan should have been pretty engaged at that temperature to bring it back down. I know you said you replaced the fan clutch but what brand did you use? At 234f, it should have been engaged to 53%. One more degree, it would have been at 73%.

noname-jpg.56927


Edit: You can check the fan using this method:
How to test the electro-viscous fan clutch
 

Rhizzlebop

Original poster
Member
May 3, 2019
22
South Carolina
Last night I tried spraying out from inside the radiator but I don't feel like I can get to much of it with the fan in the way. I sprayed around as well as I could but never felt like I saw any gunk or dark water come out at all.

I also tried taking the radiator cap off to see what room was inside, however as soon as I opened it it started coming up and out and I quickly put the cap back on, only a couple ounces were lost.

Right now, the trailer jack is up high to make the fridge work, so the rear of the TB is way up high. It looks like the rear tires are about to leave the ground.

I can either pour that bottle of wetter in the reserve tank, or wait till I pull into the street sat morning quickly, shut it off, then try to add it. Dunno how warm the engine will get pulling out of the yard, and if its safe to open the cap. Is it correct that if the engine temp is under 200, and I shut off the motor in the street that there would be no pressure on the radiator?

I do feel like the fan was whirling, cause I know it sounds like a dumptruck sometimes, but not terribly loud.
Back years ago when I replaced that clutch it was locked on so I KNOW what the dumptruck sound is like. It was on, but not that loud, so it probably was at 53%.

I also checked my tires, and put the rear TB tires at max 44, and fronts at 40, trailer Maxxis at 50 PSI. I don't really care about tire wear. This TB only gets driven about 4-5000 miles a year.

What is the temp at which I'm in danger of causing engine damage? I see the fan goes to 99% at 243, so I guess 245 is a NO GO zone?
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
I actually had to look that up. I did find this:


Safe would be around 190F, 90 C. Commonly a water cooled engine may run at 220F, 105C maybe even 230F, 110C in the summer with the AC on without significant problems. An engine that gets up to 250F, 120C very often or for very long and I’d expect to see the head gasket fail.

So at 245f, I'd start getting worried but I would be concerned at 235f if it's not coming down with the fan engaged at 53% since this fan pulls a lot of air.

If at temperature with A/C on your fan is pulling a decent amount of air, it's likely fine. You can try to stop it and if it's difficult (not like in the video), it's good. It's normal for it to sound like a dump truck when you start it and quiet down after a couple of minutes. Some do, some don't. Also depends on which position the clutch stops at.

Another possibility is that your radiator is clogged internally. Water Wetter might help but not if the rad is clogged. When was the last time the coolant was replaced? What about the thermostat?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Redbeard

Rhizzlebop

Original poster
Member
May 3, 2019
22
South Carolina
I actually had to look that up. I did find this:




So at 245f, I'd start getting worried but I would be concerned at 235f if it's not coming down with the fan engaged at 53% since this fan pulls a lot of air.

If at temperature with A/C on your fan is pulling a decent amount of air, it's likely fine. You can try to stop it and if it's difficult (not like in the video), it's good. It's normal for it to sound like a dump truck when you start it and quiet down after a couple of minutes. Some do, some don't. Also depends on which position the clutch stops at.

Another possibility is that your radiator is clogged internally. Water Wetter might help but not if the rad is clogged. When was the last time the coolant was replaced? What about the thermostat?


Coolant was replaced about 3 months ago when my guy replaced the top and bottom hoses and the belt. Thermostat was replaced several years ago.

It warms up just fine in cold weather, and just driving it to work, it runs between 194-202 so it doesnt jump at me as a thermostat issue.

To the earlier question, the fan clutch was replaced back around 2009, and I bought the AC delco from Rockauto.
 

Blckshdw

Moderator
Nov 20, 2011
10,665
Tampa Bay Area, FL
I can either pour that bottle of wetter in the reserve tank, or wait till I pull into the street sat morning quickly, shut it off, then try to add it. Dunno how warm the engine will get pulling out of the yard, and if its safe to open the cap. Is it correct that if the engine temp is under 200, and I shut off the motor in the street that there would be no pressure on the radiator?

I've opened my cap after driving with the engine up to temp, and not had any issues. Since the overflow tank is not sealed, you can't get explosive pressure build up. Plus, if you're just driving the truck down the driveway to level ground, your engine shouldn't be anywhere near warm. If it does get that hot, that quickly, you have some more pressing problems to look into.
 

Rhizzlebop

Original poster
Member
May 3, 2019
22
South Carolina
I've opened my cap after driving with the engine up to temp, and not had any issues. Since the overflow tank is not sealed, you can't get explosive pressure build up. Plus, if you're just driving the truck down the driveway to level ground, your engine shouldn't be anywhere near warm. If it does get that hot, that quickly, you have some more pressing problems to look into.

Ok, thanks. It prob wont heat up, but A we are in the middle of South Carolina, its not Hades hot here, but I can feel the heat from where I stand at the Horizon! LOL.
Plus, its not simply pulling down, its hooked to the camper, which has to exit the driveway at about a 65-70 degree angle to the driveway from straight out (20 degrees from the curb) in order to not drag the bumper or stapre tire under the tongue, so its a maneuver. Still should take less than 4 minutes, and if theres room then, I'll quickly put the wetter in before we head off.

I've read threads that say it can help 10 degrees F, their bottle says 20F, and their literature says 30 F LOL, so someone needs to get their stuff aligned on that.

It may tow great. I know in April, to Stone Mountain, on some hills (which aint much of a hill on I-20) the engine temp gauge would reach over about 228F. (3 bars past middle, which I deemed to be 6 degrees per bar). Now I have that wifi OBDII monitor, and so far it seems to match exactly with the gauge. So we'll see how it does sat. Leaving early, but by our noonish arrival at Myrtle beach it should be about 93 with high humidity, plus whatever temp the road increases to.

I aired up the tires, had the transcooler installed in Feb, OBDII monitor in June, wetter wet this sat will be added, and sprayed out the radiator from the back lastnight and got NO gunk out. Fan seems to be working fine.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
10 years on these EV clutches is pretty much as long as they will usually last. You should check it again. That's also why most of us get a tune and use thermal clutches from the 08-09. Even GM knew they were junk when they went back to thermal clutches.
 

DocBrown

Member
Dec 8, 2011
501
I'll throw in my 2¢. Been there, done that. I was towing my current hybrid with my old 2003 TB EXT, I6, 3:42 gears. Mind you our previous trailer was a 17 ft, 3500# GVWR trailer and the TB towed it like they were made for each other. Then we bought our current hybrid, not quite as heavy as yours but it's about 4500# loaded. The TB did OK, but struggled on hills and in windy conditions. No way would I have considered towing in mountains with it. One summer of that combined with the high miles of the TB (160k at that time) I decided to get a 1/2 ton PU.

That said if you have to keep your TB you've done most of the things I did, i.e. a trans cooler. I also rebuilt the trans valve body and added a shift kit. If you haven't already, change out your trans fluid and use DEX VI, not DEX III. It's a synthetic blend and runs cooler than DEX III and is recommended by GM for vehicles older than 2006 where it became the standard. One question I have is do you have any kind of custom grill or grill shell? If so that impedes air flow. More of an issue while towing than not. I had my trans running high on a trip to Gatlinburg (with my Sierra) when going around Indianapolis. I took the grill shell off and like magic the trans was running at 170 and that was in 90 degree temps.

Don't worry about your speeds. The ST tires on your trailer are very likely only rated for 65 mph anyway. I never tow over 62/63 mph. Going a little slower allows you to have better control over unexpected situations, let everyone pass you. Especially up mountain grades. It's not a race. Your goal is to get your family to your site in one piece and have fun. Also turn your AC off on big hills and open the windows for a few minutes.

Make sure your WDH is adjusted so the front fenders are back to stock height. It's critical get the weigh back on the front to maintain steering control. Also I'm betting that you are close to or exceeding your TBs payload with the tongue weight, the hitch weight and your family. While there is a listed towing capacity, towing a full height trailer is generally something you can't max the capacity with. At a minimum it's just not a fun experience.

Manually shifting isn't going to gain you much. Put in 3rd and just take off slow and steady, You will eat gas but that's the nature of towing a travel trailer. Use your cruise control on flat roads. That will help keep the torque converter locked.

Here's my prediction. Sorry, you won't like it though. You are obviously very concerned as you should be. I'm betting this eats at you every time you think about it. I know because I went though it myself. You'll be in a 1/2 ton PU by next summer. We did and it's a hassle free towing experience now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reprise

Rhizzlebop

Original poster
Member
May 3, 2019
22
South Carolina
I'll throw in my 2¢. Been there, done that. I was towing my current hybrid with my old 2003 TB EXT, I6, 3:42 gears. Mind you our previous trailer was a 17 ft, 3500# GVWR trailer and the TB towed it like they were made for each other. Then we bought our current hybrid, not quite as heavy as yours but it's about 4500# loaded. The TB did OK, but struggled on hills and in windy conditions. No way would I have considered towing in mountains with it. One summer of that combined with the high miles of the TB (160k at that time) I decided to get a 1/2 ton PU.

That said if you have to keep your TB you've done most of the things I did, i.e. a trans cooler. I also rebuilt the trans valve body and added a shift kit. If you haven't already, change out your trans fluid and use DEX VI, not DEX III. It's a synthetic blend and runs cooler than DEX III and is recommended by GM for vehicles older than 2006 where it became the standard. One question I have is do you have any kind of custom grill or grill shell? If so that impedes air flow. More of an issue while towing than not. I had my trans running high on a trip to Gatlinburg (with my Sierra) when going around Indianapolis. I took the grill shell off and like magic the trans was running at 170 and that was in 90 degree temps.

Don't worry about your speeds. The ST tires on your trailer are very likely only rated for 65 mph anyway. I never tow over 62/63 mph. Going a little slower allows you to have better control over unexpected situations, let everyone pass you. Especially up mountain grades. It's not a race. Your goal is to get your family to your site in one piece and have fun. Also turn your AC off on big hills and open the windows for a few minutes.

Make sure your WDH is adjusted so the front fenders are back to stock height. It's critical get the weigh back on the front to maintain steering control. Also I'm betting that you are close to or exceeding your TBs payload with the tongue weight, the hitch weight and your family. While there is a listed towing capacity, towing a full height trailer is generally something you can't max the capacity with. At a minimum it's just not a fun experience.

Manually shifting isn't going to gain you much. Put in 3rd and just take off slow and steady, You will eat gas but that's the nature of towing a travel trailer. Use your cruise control on flat roads. That will help keep the torque converter locked.

Here's my prediction. Sorry, you won't like it though. You are obviously very concerned as you should be. I'm betting this eats at you every time you think about it. I know because I went though it myself. You'll be in a 1/2 ton PU by next summer. We did and it's a hassle free towing experience now.

Funny picture of Sam Axe.

You're not wrong, except it wont be next summer, more like the summer after. 2 years from a paid off van, and not buying a vehicle till the van is paid off.

Also, putt the car in 3rd gear and taking off slow?? , wont that make the vehicle start off in 3rd gear?? that seems crazy, and I'd expect to wear out the trans fast!

My tires are Maxxis, and rated for 75, but I wont run near that fast.

I think when we do look for a truck, I'm gonna be looking at an Ecoboost F150 that will ultimately pull whatever size camper I upgrade to in the future. I specifically bought this camper because it gave us enough room to manage, while being somewhat within my tow limits for a couple years time.
 

DocBrown

Member
Dec 8, 2011
501
Nice, few people know who Sam Axe is! That's one of my favorite shows.

Yeah, I'm considering a Ford with the Ecoboost for my next truck.

There's a lot to be said about keeping it to one payment. We bought my wife a car last year and we're not replacing the Sierra until hers is paid off. The Sierra has 154k on it. Aside from Rust it's in pretty good shape, but I've also had to stick some money into it, cracked power steering cooler over the winter, new transmission lines, last summer a squirrel chewed my starter wires and shorted out several relays. which cost me $500 mostly for trouble shooting.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
For putting it in 3rd gear, no it won't start in 3rd. It does that only in 2nd for taking off slow in slippery conditions. In 3rd, it will.go through 1-2-3 as usual. Just won't go into 4th. Torque converter will also lock when cruising
 

Rhizzlebop

Original poster
Member
May 3, 2019
22
South Carolina
For putting it in 3rd gear, no it won't start in 3rd. It does that only in 2nd for taking off slow in slippery conditions. In 3rd, it will.go through 1-2-3 as usual. Just won't go into 4th. Torque converter will also lock when cruising

I've got to try this and find out cause I've been driving through 1,2,3rd gear like a stick shift. A couple times I forgot and thought it was trying to launch in 3rd.

Yea, Burn Notice was an AWESOME show. USA used to have lots of great shows, Psych, Burn Notice..... My my my Fiona!), Royal Pains, Necessary Roughness, Fairly Legal (I think??) The one with the hot girl from Coyote Ugly as a CIA Agent and the blind guy. That ended suddenly without wrapping anything up. Now its just a bunch of crap they show.
 

NJTB

Member
Aug 27, 2012
612
Flemington, NJ
A few years ago I towed a boat with the TB (I6, 3.42 gears) about 100 miles up and down the hills in PA, around 3500 lbs. all in. If anyones familiar with it, Rt. 80 past the Delaware Water gap and up 380 to 84.
I had a scan gauge hooked up the whole time, and on the steeper hills (around 5% grade, the temp went to 236 degrees. I towed in 3rd. gear the whole time.
The TB still runs like a champ, no problems.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
GM did cheap out on the radiator of these trucks and overcompensated with a huge belt driven clutch fan rather than electric fans like on other trucks. And a crap clutch at that.

There is a way to force the fan to 100% when you need it by putting a switch to supply 12v+ wired to the white wire or the relay leg that feeds it. You'll sound like a dump truck and your MPG will take a hit but at least you can overcool when needed.
 

Reprise

Lifetime VIP Donor
Supporting Donor
Member
Jul 22, 2015
2,724
There is a way to force the fan to 100% when you need it by putting a switch to supply 12v+ wired to the white wire or the relay leg that feeds it. You'll sound like a dump truck and your MPG will take a hit but at least you can overcool when needed.

Is there a post on this? (yeah, I'm sorry I'm too lazy to search using our inefficient search engine...but I *will* look, if you reply in the affirmative) No, you don't need to post the link! :laugh:


And to jump in on @DocBrown 's avatar... funny thing. I always thought that was GW Bush, or perhaps Christopher Lloyd (Doc Brown 'Back to the Future') I never figured it for Bruce Campbell (although I've not seen Burn Notice, I've seen him in a LOT of other stuff). Chalk it up to the grainy picture, I suppose!
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Is there a post on this?

I vaguely remember somebody doing it a long time ago but I don't think it was a "how-to". it's simple enough to do. I'd just tap onto the relay pin that supplies the clutch's white wire. It might throw an fan overspeed code though while using it. Anyway, I gave up on the EV clutches a long time ago and just use thermal clutches.
 

Reprise

Lifetime VIP Donor
Supporting Donor
Member
Jul 22, 2015
2,724
Oh, yeah... I don't even *have* an EV clutch anymore! D'oh! I wanted to command my thermals.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Over on offroadtb.com there is a couple people with good info on upsizing the radiator to help with unbalanced cooling system, but I do recall one recently saying he was still ditching the E-fans and going back to stock fan with newer style clutch even with the bigger radiator
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mooseman

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
I was on the efan kick for a while in the beginning and they sucked on the stock radiator. My '02 was on the thermal clutch without issues. My current '07 still has the EV clutch but once it dies, the old thermal is going in.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Redbeard

DocBrown

Member
Dec 8, 2011
501
I never figured it for Bruce Campbell (although I've not seen Burn Notice, I've seen him in a LOT of other stuff). Chalk it up to the grainy picture, I suppose!

Ha ha! I could never find a better picture! I've been meaning to change it to something else but I've just been too lazy...
 

Rhizzlebop

Original poster
Member
May 3, 2019
22
South Carolina
So to follow up on the thread. We towed down to the beach Saturday. Left at 8:30 and got here at 1:45 pm. The temp got about 93 outside by the time we got here.

While towing on the road the engine temp ran between 208-218. In traffic the last 10 miles it went as high as 230. I turned the ac blower down a little and it cooled to 226. Yea just turning the blower speed down did that. I turned it back up and it went back to 230. That was from lever 4 ac fan to level 3. Went back to 3 and it went down to 225. As soon as we were rolling again it went down to 223 and then down to 218 range.

The transmission while towing was pretty consistent at 195. I think it went as high as 203 once or twice.

Overall I was really pleased with how it did. I had also conincidentally put one more chain notch on my weight bars which shoved more weight forward on the TB. It towed much better than last time and felt really stable at 60-65 mph all the way. I also just put it in 3rd and let it shift as needed.

Oh last note when I tried to put that bottle of wetter in I used paper towels to soak up from the radiator cap area. That got enough out that I got a half bottle in there. I just dumped the other half directly into the plastic tank and we headed out.
 

Rhizzlebop

Original poster
Member
May 3, 2019
22
South Carolina
So I had a little issue coming home yesterday. We headed out from the beach no problems and about 15 miles into our trip home the check engine light started flashing and it was studdering bad. Called around and found a shop open on sat willing to check it out. I had looked up that the flashing light was related to a misfire issue.

I drove it 6 miles with the camper to the shop where he scanned the port and got P0300 and said cylinder 1 (in the back) was the issue. He changed the spark plug and the coil pack but the studded remained. By now it had been about 2.5 hours and the shop was 30 minutes past closing.

He said he felt it had to be the injector then but it would take a half day to remove the intake and replace that injector.

He said he was not charging me for the coil and plug and I could leave it there or we could limp it home.

We made the decision to drive it home. 150 miles towing the camper and we did so at about 45-55 mph. Got home around 6 yesterday evening and seems no better or no worse either.

He also said he could se oil around the valve cover area when he pulled that breather off the top and said he felt like that was a factor in something going wrong in the number 1 cylinder.

Overall a good trip and we made it home but I’ve got to get it to my guy to look at the valve cover gasket again as well as this studdering/injector issue. I’ve heard if you’re in there it’s best to replace all injectors. Thoughts?
 

xavierny25

Member
Mar 16, 2014
6,323
Staten Island, N.Y
A p300 code is just a indication of a misfire not particular to cylinder 1. You can run it till the system detects which cylinder is misfiring and it will pull code p301-p306. To manually test you can pull of the coil connectors 1 by 1. The 1 that does make any change is your culprit. You should try to keep a coil and plug around just incase it happens again.

As for the cover gasket you can just snug up the bolts. It's very rare I hear about a failed valve cover gasket here. The oil may of just come from the tube leading up the the intake resonator which happens when they get old and just loose the grip on the valve cover. You could either replace the tube or put a worm gear clap on it will do fine.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
#1 is at the FRONT of the engine, rear is #6 (ask me how I know :redface: ). Maybe that's why it didn't fix it. Try swapping #1 with #6.

That is correct that it will give P0300 until it decides which one is misfiring unless the mech checked the misfire data and saw it was #1.
 

Forum Statistics

Threads
23,273
Posts
637,487
Members
18,472
Latest member
MissCrutcher