2004 TB, hard shift into 4th

NJTB

Original poster
Member
Aug 27, 2012
612
Flemington, NJ
All
Recently, my TB started shifting into 4th gear very firmly. Trans fluid and filter was changed with Dex 6 about 25,000 miles ago, fluid level is fine and there's no slippage. Other than that, all the other shifts are fine.
Haven't gotten into it yet, looking for a place to start, thinking something in the valve body.
Any suggestions?
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,327
Ottawa, ON
If you have access to a Tech 2 or other high end scanner, do a trans. adapts reset. Makes it relearn the pressures.

Other than that, I have no idea. I looked here and it didn't list your particular problem at all.
 
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NJTB

Original poster
Member
Aug 27, 2012
612
Flemington, NJ
Thanks Mooseman. I do have a Tech 2, just have to figure out where the trans adapts reset is.
Seems like it could be the problem cause there's no slippage and the fluids still red.

I was thinking a checkball was starting to punch it's way through the valve body plate, but wasn't sure which is why I asked.
Probably give it a shot Monday.
 

mrrsm

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Oct 22, 2015
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This link takes you to "The Bible" ATSG PDF of 4L60E & 4L80E Transmission Error Code Diagnostics that may prove useful in tandem with your Tech 2 Scan Tool:

 
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TJBaker57

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Aug 16, 2015
2,900
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Thanks Mooseman. I do have a Tech 2, just have to figure out where the trans adapts reset is.
Seems like it could be the problem cause there's no slippage and the fluids still red.

I was thinking a checkball was starting to punch it's way through the valve body plate, but wasn't sure which is why I asked.
Probably give it a shot Monday.

If I were in your shoes, before resetting the trans adapts I would view what those adapts are currently. Maybe even take pictures of the current readings.
 

NJTB

Original poster
Member
Aug 27, 2012
612
Flemington, NJ
MRRSM-That's quite the document, gonna take me a while to read it.
TJBaker57-Yes, trans pressure readings are critical. I remember when I worked at the GM dealership in the 70's-80's, they wanted pressure readings before they'd let you do a rebuilld.
Most of the time it was poor shifting that, at the time, couldn't be fixed without new/different springs in the valve body, which GM wouldn't let you do. They wanted their parts used, period.

I probably should have added that this is an intermittent problem that seems to happen when it's driven about 30 miles. Since the TB is a 2004, it could be anything from a bad wire to a rebuild.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,327
Ottawa, ON
I'm thinking it's more a valve issue than electrical except maybe a solenoid failing. Also maybe something with the valve body and a check ball as mentioned. Isn't there also a 4th apply servo? I only know enough to get myself into trouble.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
When it shifts into 4th, is there a delay, meaning do the RPM's climb more than usual then hit 4th, or just normal RPM climb then a hard shift?

What comes to mind is an accumulator spring that may be broken, not a common occurrence, but would likely give you the hard shift. Usually it's a cracked piston and that's a different issue.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Found a diagram, the spring in question is #46, of course it's on the other side of the seperator plate.

If removing the plate, I would replace with a new one, and would highly recommend getting it from the dealer as it's drilled to your application. Also has both gaskets molded to the plate, with the filters already installed.

Edit to add:, I agree to check the pressures before tearing into it, that's just what comes to mind is the spring.
 

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NJTB

Original poster
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Aug 27, 2012
612
Flemington, NJ
When it shifts into 4th, is there a delay, meaning do the RPM's climb more than usual then hit 4th, or just normal RPM climb then a hard shift?

What comes to mind is an accumulator spring that may be broken, not a common occurrence, but would likely give you the hard shift. Usually it's a cracked piston and that's a different issue.
There's no delay, just a hard shift, and it don't do it all the time. If I'm on the throttle, like getting on a hiway, seems to shift fine. Problem occurs leaving a stoplight and shifting through the gears, when I hit about 40 or so, and let off the gas a bit or just enough to maintain speed, bang, hard shift, sometimes.
At least the people who responded to this post gave me a direction to go in, and I do appreciate it immensly. I'm going to hook up the Tech 2 and check the pressures Tuesday, but won't be able to get to any repairs till after Thanksgiving. Gives me a little while to overthink it all.
Thanks to all, you've beena great help.
 

Reprise

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Jul 22, 2015
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Coming in late here, but given the addn'l description, I'd also suspect 4th accum, or perhaps something with disengagement of the lockup (TCC / PWM).

The nice thing is that both of those are addressable via the valve body area, with one of the kits a lot of us have put in our trucks over the years.

The 4th accumulator is going to be plastic, so cracking is a definite possibility. I've heard people say 4th is so soft that it could probably make the shift with no spring at all. With mine, I swapped the 1st accum piston, since it was metal, at least, and I'd put a Sonnax pinless in that spot, anyway.

The band comes into play on both the 2nd / 4th shift, but if 2nd behaves normally, I doubt it would be acting up for 4th.

If you're up for the work, I'd get the TransGo kit & associated parts & put them in. Worth a shot, IMO, given your description of how the trans is working, otherwise.
 

59840Surfer

Member
Apr 19, 2020
85
Montana
All
Recently, my TB started shifting into 4th gear very firmly. Trans fluid and filter was changed with Dex 6 about 25,000 miles ago, fluid level is fine and there's no slippage. Other than that, all the other shifts are fine.
Haven't gotten into it yet, looking for a place to start, thinking something in the valve body.
Any suggestions?
Are you mistaking 4th for TCC or vice-versa?

Some drivers cannot tell the difference. There is a test though - rather simple provided the BOO switch works correctly.

Allow the transmission to upshift normally as you rest your left foot on the brake pedal - not enough to apply the brakes - just enough to trip the Cruise Control Release or the Brake On-Off Switch to be opened.

This will keep the TCC from locking up and you will have a better picture of the problem .

I bet you've got a bad TCC PWM switch in the valve body and the TCC sprag has been mistreated enough to have a harsh engagement.

If you catch it soon enough, you might get away cheap with a reman'd convertor and a valve body Shift Kit® from Gil Younger.
 
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59840Surfer

Member
Apr 19, 2020
85
Montana
I probably should have added that this is an intermittent problem that seems to happen when it's driven about 30 miles. Since the TB is a 2004, it could be anything from a bad wire to a rebuild.
The TCC is disabled until the engine is up to operational parameters - although 30 miles is kinda an awful long way waiting for that to happen. Uhmmm ---- might be - or not.

SOME calibrations allow TCC earlier - basically on V8s - but the smaller engines get a TCC delay like I said - but 30 miles is a long way!

I'd be checking the CTS and if the Oxygen sensors are both coming on line and reporting valid numbers first with a scanner.
 
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NJTB

Original poster
Member
Aug 27, 2012
612
Flemington, NJ
Took the TB out yesterday with the Tech 2 hooked up, and went on a variety of roads, hi way and city driving. It didn't bang into 4th once.
The scanner also wouldn't give me pressure readings. What it did give me was trans temp (165*), TCC slippage and efficency (varied, but seemed OK), time from one shift to the other (varied from one shift to the other, about .2 to .5 seconds). The engine coolant temp was 196*, and the O2 sensor (front) was varying between .2 and .9 volts.
There was a line that showed slippage in any gear, and there was none, nor were there any codes.
Tomorrow I'm taking a ride to my sons house for Thanksgiving dinner, will run it with the scanner hooked up and see what happens.
Right now I'm pretty confused about the whole thing, and trying to figure out what would cause this intermittently. If the 4th accumulator was cracked I think it would do it more often, or set a code. Maybe I'm missing something and it's not the trans at all.
I hope everyone has a Happy Thanksgiving, and thanks for all the suggestions and advise on this.
 

59840Surfer

Member
Apr 19, 2020
85
Montana
Typically the weakest part of our transmission is 3rd/Direct and that damned PWM.

You said you had a problem in 4th/OD, (but it actually might have been L/U).

I've had converters that partially roll a sprag and can act that way by slamming a shift --- bad one day and nice the next ---but once the sprag is damaged it will eventually totally flip and leave you stranded.

Many times you won't find metal in your pan if it's a convertor ..... until it actually ceases motivating.

Well, "time will out" and you'll eventually find out what it is/was and will be.
 

NJTB

Original poster
Member
Aug 27, 2012
612
Flemington, NJ
Did you have a look at the adapt cells to see if anything seemed to stand out??

View attachment 102267
When I drive down to my sons house today it's something I'll look at. Saw them yesterday but didn't pay attention, as I was looking for line pressures. I do remember the TAP pressures were low like in your picture. Also found out you can't read line pressure on the Tech 2, have to use a pressure guage, at least on a 04 TB.
 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,900
Colorado
When I drive down to my sons house today it's something I'll look at. Saw them yesterday but didn't pay attention, as I was looking for line pressures. I do remember the TAP pressures were low like in your picture. Also found out you can't read line pressure on the Tech 2, have to use a pressure guage, at least on a 04 TB.

I knew that line pressures were not available through the Tech 2. My thoughts were to see if the TAP cells might indicate a place where the controller was trying to adjust for something amiss so the cell value there would be out of the range of the other cells??

The picture I posted was from my Yukon at a time when it needed a rebuild. I should have a look again now and see what the values are having had the transmission fully rebuilt.
 

NJTB

Original poster
Member
Aug 27, 2012
612
Flemington, NJ
Went to my sons house yesterday and the trans worked just as it should. Checked the tap cells, they were all at 0, except 9 and 10, which were 2.5 and 5 kpa., everything else seemed normal as far as temp and slippage.
It seems @59840Surfer may be on to something, as whatevers wrong isn't monitored, but I sure wish the problem would happen again while the Tech 2 is connected.
Got the feeling a rebuild is in the near future.
 
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NJTB

Original poster
Member
Aug 27, 2012
612
Flemington, NJ
Thought I'd give a follow up on this.
Hooked up the Tech 2 and drove around for about 2 months straight, until finally it did it once.
Checked the Tech 2, and it said the trans was in 4th. with the TCC applied, and that kind of blew me out of the water. While driving, I couldnt look at the screen and check the TAP pressures, pulled over and they seemed fine. TAP hasn't changed.
I think I'm looking at a trans rebuild, but I'm going to drive it until I'm absolutley sure and hoping to find a good rebuilder.
Wish me luck.
 

59840Surfer

Member
Apr 19, 2020
85
Montana
I knew that line pressures were not available through the Tech 2. My thoughts were to see if the TAP cells might indicate a place where the controller was trying to adjust for something amiss so the cell value there would be out of the range of the other cells??

The picture I posted was from my Yukon at a time when it needed a rebuild. I should have a look again now and see what the values are having had the transmission fully rebuilt.
Having a thought here --- just tossing spitballs on the cave wall, if you will.

I do not believe that the TAP Values are as flexible as has been reported or alluded to here.

They are kinda like LTFTs in that they are only reporting a COMPOSITE TREND, not a happenstance ... right?

This may be leading people to false flags and missing something else, more unobvious.

THEN I think somehow I noticed that the OP was concerned of the transmission being in 4th and TCC L/U at the same time. I wondered about that.

It is not a problem that those can be happen at the same time --- f'rinstance: the TC can be called in if the transmission thinks it is overheated --- even in 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

► FTR: TCC is NEVER allowed in 1st or Reverse --- for obvious reasons.

If the TCC is locked up under an overheat command --- the, as each shift happens, the TCC is momentarily released to accommodate the shift so you don't swallow your teeth. I nicknamed that release as a "Burp Switch", as the 700R4s had just that type of hydraulic pressure switch to release the TCC at each shift point.

To shift with the TCC locked up is a terrific hit, and it will make a believer out of you if you ever feel it --- as to how much shift-shock the convertor absorbs!

FUN FACT: Old wives' tales would have one to believe that clutches and/or bands slip. They do NOT. Hookup is immediate and the impact is severe -- because those clutches and band(s) cannot tolerate that abuse more than a couple of times before they char beyond usefulness.

Solution? Kill all those old wives and their silly tales.

Overheating of this transmission is maybe 30% caused by the torque convertor ---er: converting horsepower to torque - and torque into horsepower. Hence - it is a "Torque Convertor" (much like a shock absorber, which work as their name implies: as shock absorbers).

But torque-conversion is not the only high-heat generator in this vehicle --- there's the other 70% of the heat which comes from the TCC.

That 70% worst offender is the damned digitally-applied TCC!
► It is never 100% entirely hooked up, nor 100% released.
► It is always dragging and boiling the ATF off the Kevlar clutch and sending that scorched/scorching fluid into the rest of the hydraulic system to eventually be pumped into an already overloaded engine cooling system.

NORMALLY --- and if the unit is running less than the threshold of what the TCM considers "HOT" --- the TCC may not come on in 2nd, but it CAN normally lock up if 3rd gear VSS range is held for a period of time --- and I am not privy to whatever the TCM considers a sufficient "period of time" to it.
► I imagine if one were to cruise at 44 MPH, then the 3-4 shift might not happen, since the gate for that seems to be 45 MPH on all of my four 4L60s and one 700R4.


If you ever have your 4L60 rebuilt, have the PWM deleted in that it will then be an analog switch ---> (basically: ON or OFF - with nothing in between by percentages --- which are transmission killers!) instead of digital, and then you can feel for yourself just how busy the TCC really is.

FUN FACT #2 Since I have had a rebuild of my transmission to the way I wanted it ... 3" 2/4 band, PWN-Delete, Transco H2 Shift Kit™, hardened drum, 5-pinion straight cut planetary set, S10 torque convertor w/TCC, Corvette 2/4 servo (which I may remove because the 2-4 3" band is so aggressive) and laminated apply pistons, where available --- I have a really hard time getting my ATF up to 185°F towing 3 cords of wood (@3500 lbs) and I attribute that to the PWN-Delete almost wholly.

Ding Dong Transmission School is out for a while. Recess!




.
 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,900
Colorado
That 70% worst offender is the damned digitally-applied TCC!
► It is never 100% entirely hooked up, nor 100% released.


I have seen this asserted several times and I always kind of wonder.

In the Tech 2, GMs own scan tool of the day, is a transmission parameter named "TCC Slip Speed". It displays as an RPM value. When my own vehicles go into lockup this value is reported as 0 rpm. Not 40, not 35, ZERO.

The very same parameter can be seen with Torque Pro or a number of other such options less expensive than the Tech 2 but displaying precisely the same data PID as the Tech 2 is displaying.
 

59840Surfer

Member
Apr 19, 2020
85
Montana
If you ever get up to Montana, let's run that test against your basically stock 4L60 transmission and my 4L60 transmission.

I know the temperature of my before/after values are a good 50°F cooler since I got rid of the PWM.

The only real difference is the Delete -- although this is on a fresh transmission.

Since anyone knows that gears and sprags and such don't make any actual temperature --- and if there's clutch slippage in the non-convertor packs, then there's going to be a lot of clutch material in the form of cinders in the pan --- so we can rule that out in a decently running transmission.

I've towed my firewood trailer not just a few times before and after the PWM Delete --- and the thermal difference is astounding.

Before the rebuild I was seriously considering an after market cooler, but now it's not even needed.

Now where do you suppose the difference is?
 

59840Surfer

Member
Apr 19, 2020
85
Montana
I have seen this asserted several times and I always kind of wonder.

In the Tech 2, GMs own scan tool of the day, is a transmission parameter named "TCC Slip Speed". It displays as an RPM value. When my own vehicles go into lockup this value is reported as 0 rpm. Not 40, not 35, ZERO.

The very same parameter can be seen with Torque Pro or a number of other such options less expensive than the Tech 2 but displaying precisely the same data PID as the Tech 2 is displaying.
.... and ..... I'm not totally secure in the idea that the TCC reported lockup is what's actually happening here --- it might be just the command and not the reality of what happens.

Think: Oil Pressure on the 4.2 if you follow me here.

Another thought --- unsubstantiated so far, but I'm going to check on it --- is that as a transmission gets older, the TCC command may result in less actual lockup as things get older. Older transmissions certainly run hotter until they cease motivating --- that's a given.

I have a friend in the business yet and I'll talk to him about this and I'll report back of my findings.
 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,900
Colorado
.... and ..... I'm not totally secure in the idea that the TCC reported lockup is what's actually happening here --- it might be just the command and not the reality of what happens.

Think: Oil Pressure on the 4.2 if you follow me here.

Another thought --- unsubstantiated so far, but I'm going to check on it --- is that as a transmission gets older, the TCC command may result in less actual lockup as things get older. Older transmissions certainly run hotter until they cease motivating --- that's a given.

I have a friend in the business yet and I'll talk to him about this and I'll report back of my findings.

I can write up an equation in Torque Pro that can take the rear driveshaft rpm and the engine rpm and do the math with the 4l60e 4th gear ratio of 0.696. any slipping will be evident regardless of where it is happening. Math doesn't lie.
 

NJTB

Original poster
Member
Aug 27, 2012
612
Flemington, NJ
FWIW, according to the Tech 2, my trans temp is around 160*, hi way and local roads. Took it for a ride yesterday, 30 miles each way, and it didn't do it once.
Also, I thought the TCC applied in 2nd gear, it don't, 4th gear and then lockup.
I took it from NJ to Utah (~4500 miles) in June and it ran great, no problems, Then this problem started happening around November.
PS-on my Tech 2, TCC slippage is measured in a percentage of lockup, and if I remember correctly, at 50mph it was about 85% on a pretty flat road. It did vary according to start/stop and speed.
 

59840Surfer

Member
Apr 19, 2020
85
Montana
FWIW, according to the Tech 2, my trans temp is around 160*, hi way and local roads. Took it for a ride yesterday, 30 miles each way, and it didn't do it once.
Also, I thought the TCC applied in 2nd gear, it don't, 4th gear and then lockup.
I took it from NJ to Utah (~4500 miles) in June and it ran great, no problems, Then this problem started happening around November.
PS-on my Tech 2, TCC slippage is measured in a percentage of lockup, and if I remember correctly, at 50mph it was about 85% on a pretty flat road. It did vary according to start/stop and speed.
TCC CAN apply in gears "lower" than 4th --- it's all about: is 4WD engaged-is the BOO Switch enabled-what is the ATF Temp-what is the TPS percentage-WOT or not-closed loop/open loop-quadrant position-engine power percentage-MAP or MAF readings-lots of stuff like that.

For most drivers, the first sign of TCC trouble is a "floating RPM" at speeds on flat ground, not much wind and steady throttle )or better yet --- Cruise Control engaged).

An 85% hookup rate may not be bad enough to detect on a new TCC clutch, but get some miles on it and when 85% is called for and the real slippage gets to 90% or 100% - then the convertor shifts into "convertor only" condition and the floating RPM gets much more noticeable.

At any given moment --- if conditions are right --- and the TCC clutch material is wasted away to zilch, and the convertor is the ONLY link between the crankshaft and the output shaft of the transmission --- the driver may or may not notice that the TCC is no longer among the living.
► This - of course - would totally depend upon the condition of the convertor - the condition of the driver - familiarity with the vehicle by the operator --- etc.

So --> "50mph it (TCC) was about 85% on a pretty flat road" is totally believable!

:yes:TJ -- I have grown to love you and your technical expertise with all my heart -- I just think there's something else involved here as these TCC clutches are short-lived, they create a lot of heat and are usually the canary in the coal mine and the first notice that the Direct (3rd gear) clutchpack is dead or dying or slipping badly.

3rd is the weak link on these 4Ls (we all know that) --- and coupled with a progressively dying TCC clutch, it adds up to a lot of confusion .......................

--> so what came first --- the bad Direct Clutch pack/piston or a slipping-by-design burned up TCC?
► I say both, simultaneously.
 

NJTB

Original poster
Member
Aug 27, 2012
612
Flemington, NJ
Had a chance to post the pictures from the Tech 2. This was about 5 min. running, parked.
 

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NJTB

Original poster
Member
Aug 27, 2012
612
Flemington, NJ
Update. Crazy damn transmission.
Drove about 40 miles, trans acted normally. Turned around to go home, had HUGE 2-3 shift flares, wouldn't go into 4th, was worried I wasn't going to make it home. It did.
Stewed about this overnight, called my favorite mechanic (who loves to work on rusty stuff), and he suggested AAmco in Hackettstown, NJ. Took a chance and drove it up there, again about 40 miles, trans diddn't miss a beat. Took a ride with the rebuilder, worked like a charm, although there was some very minor shift flare. (2-3)
Talked with him a bit, and he told me a few years ago he was doing 3 4l60's a week, and we discussed what could be wrong. Came down to somethings losing pressure inside the trans.
Thought about this for a bit, said screw it, it's only money ($3647.00). Dropping it off Monday, picking it up Friday. At least it will have a 3 year, 100,000 mile warranty.
 

59840Surfer

Member
Apr 19, 2020
85
Montana
Update. Crazy damn transmission.
Drove about 40 miles, trans acted normally. Turned around to go home, had HUGE 2-3 shift flares, wouldn't go into 4th, was worried I wasn't going to make it home. It did.
Stewed about this overnight, called my favorite mechanic (who loves to work on rusty stuff), and he suggested AAmco in Hackettstown, NJ. Took a chance and drove it up there, again about 40 miles, trans diddn't miss a beat. Took a ride with the rebuilder, worked like a charm, although there was some very minor shift flare. (2-3)
Talked with him a bit, and he told me a few years ago he was doing 3 4l60's a week, and we discussed what could be wrong. Came down to somethings losing pressure inside the trans.
Thought about this for a bit, said screw it, it's only money ($3647.00). Dropping it off Monday, picking it up Friday. At least it will have a 3 year, 100,000 mile warranty.
..... and so? .......
 

59840Surfer

Member
Apr 19, 2020
85
Montana
I've got a front end "buzz" I'm working on. So far I put a new hub on the left side and that changed nothing.

Next I put the good/old hub from the left side on the right side and see what happens.
 

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