07 engine replace after broken rod.. no start

[kincadefoster]

07 trailblazer Atlas I-6 had a broken rod, it is my brother's and he ordered an 08 engine, we did the swap and cranks but no start.
I've done a lot of googling and such and asking around, some say there is no difference 07 to 08 and others say maybe the crank reluctor has more indexes for the sensor.
When I installed the new engine, it came with a wiring harness, but I just used the old harness and replaced the 3 wire CPS with the old CPS.
The PCM appears to be the same from 07-08 but the harness is different. Any ideas before I replace the harness?

 

[Mooseman]

Sorry to say that the 08 engine in your 07 will NOT work.
4.2L interchangeability by years

And this was basically the same but the other way around:

08 TB will no start after engine swap

I put new motor in and I have all grounds connected all plugs plugged In and. I've got fuel but it just will not start I have power to my coils but no spark can anyone help me out ....

gmtnation.com

 

[kincadefoster]

Even if I change the harness and ECM?

 

[Mooseman]

Big unknown if the 08 PCM will like talking to the 07 BCM and if the the harnesses will match up between the two. If I'm not mistaken, I think 08 was when these trucks went to the GM LAN system whereas the older trucks were on the CANBUS system. Swap BCM? I think you'd be heading down a deep rabbit hole. Too many variables.

 

[TJBaker57]

I believe in 08 there was a change from PCM to ECM + TCM. CANBUS also began in 08 for ECM + TCM. Earlier years were not canbus, just single wire J1850VPW. Or something like this

 

[TJBaker57]

TCCM Differences

There apparently are two different part numbers for a TCCM (for a Trailblazer or Envoy 4WD), GM 12590220 fpr 2002-2005, and 24233623 for 2006-2009. Does anybody know what the differences are?

gmtnation.com

 

[kincadefoster]

Ok so I'm looking at 2 harnesses, one is the 07 and has the three plug ins for the ECM and the other one has 3 for the ECM plus an oval shaped one next to another one that looks very similar to one of the plugins for the ECM but these two must connect under the dash or near the fuse box in engine compartment, is one of these the BCM? Anyone want to trade an 08 motor for an 07?

 

[Mooseman]

The extra PCM looking one is likely for the TCM. The BCM is under the rear seat next to the fuse box.

 

[kincadefoster]

Ok, got an oh-four motor (my keyboard is broken) one of the wrist pins is missing, how bad is it to have only one wrist pin, I bolted it up and left it for the night, I was tired? ALso My understanding is I need to change the fuel rail, AIR solenoid and ECT sensor, how do I go about changing the ECT sensor there isn't hole for the ECT sensor to go in back or do I just need to splice some wires to go to the one in front?

 

[Mooseman]

(added the a's for ya )

What are you referring to as a "wrist pin"? Those are what connects the pistons to the connecting rod.

Here's what you'll need to make the 04 engine work in your 07:
- swap the fuel rail to your 07's
- swap the SAIS/AIR solenoid to the 04 engine if the 04 doesn't have one.
- extend the coolant temp sensor wire from the right rear of the head to above the thermostat on front left side

 

[kincadefoster]

Ok thnks nd for the letters too I sid keybord is broken, idk why I sid wrist pin, ment the dowel pins where the engine nd trnsmission go together

 

[TJBaker57]

Ok thnks nd for the letters too I sid keybord is broken, idk why I sid wrist pin, ment the dowel pins where the engine nd trnsmission go together

I cannot say for certain but I would think you do need all dowel pins there as the alignment between engine & transmission could be critical.

 

[Mooseman]

They're not pins as such, more like hollow dowels that are in two of the bolt holes. They're either in the block or the tranny.

 

[mrrsm]

STOP A BIT...

I just visited my 'Engine Block on the Stand' and took some fresh images. As it turns out... like EVERYTHING ELSE with the GM LL8 4.2L Engine Block... The Dowel Pins have to be different as well.

Like @Mooseman said, it seems that these are Hermaphrodites, having a Beveled Outer Dowel and sporting a Hollow Center; apparently there to allow more of the myriad (11?) 4L60E to LL8 Block 15mm Long Bolts to pass through and thread into the Back Plane of the Engine Block. Have a look at THESE:



And one more suggestion...

For anyone either changing out their own Swap Engine or Replacing the 4L60E... there HAVE been a few cases where some Folks have FAILED TO JOIN THE ENGINES TO THE TRANSMISSION BECAUSE THERE WERE GUIDE DOWEL PINS INSERTED INTO BOTH SIDES .

And this of course leads to having Stripped Out Threaded Holes in the Engine Block after the Mechanic(s)-Owner(s) mistakenly struggled to "Draw the Engine and Transmission Together using the 15mm Bolts..." This is a HUGE NO-NO. So it will not hurt to Double Check BOTH sides of this arrangement before trying to mate them together.

 

[Mooseman]

Also be certain that the torque converter is properly inserted into the tranny's pump otherwise you will destroy the tranny's pump when you bolt the engine to the bellhousing.

 

[kincadefoster]

I always make sure it's pushed in before dropping an engine in..
Ok so I took off the plenum to get the engine in and some oil dripped out. I hoped it was just because the engine had been stored on its side or something, but this project is taking too long I had to try it.

Engine in and it runs, but rough idle, did a bunch of diagnostic and power balance test shows nothing on cyl 2, connected a compression tester and got 0 psi.

Ok, so what's the viability of swapping the crankshaft from the 04 engine into the 08? The 08 when installed looked to be in good shape, you can hear it in the way it cranks, good even compression. Otherwise, that's it, my brother doesn't want to spend any more money on it.

Or even, pulling the crank and having a machine shop swap the reluctor wheel?
At this point, I've spent so much time on it, I just have this need to make it work

 

[Mooseman]

Ok so I took off the plenum to get the engine in and some oil dripped out. I hoped it was just because the engine had been stored on its side or something, but this project is taking too long I had to try it.

Oil in the intake and/or the resonator is likely from oil mist from the PCV vent hose. Also the reason the throttle body needs to be cleaned on a regular basis.

Ok, so what's the viability of swapping the crankshaft from the 04 engine into the 08?

Not possible. They are cast in the crank.

Why would you want to swap the 04 crank into the 08 engine? Your loss of compression is not from that. You have to find where your loss of compression is coming from. Do a leakdown test to see where the air is escaping. Could be the rings or a hole in the piston, a stuck valve or possibly the head or gasket.

So you were able to get the 08 engine to work in the 07? We'd love to know how you did this.

You have an 04 engine? If it's a viable candidate and depending on what you did in the truck, this is likely your best bet. As noted above, it only needs minor mods to work.

Got a new keyboard huh?

 

[TJBaker57]

So you were able to get the 08 engine to work in the 07? We'd love to know how you did this.

In message #9 he says he got an 04 (oh-four) motor.

 

[mrrsm]

It would help us all to no end... it you could either post all of your collective Engine, Disassembly and/or Reassembly Images either on Flickr or Photobucket so we can actually see where things are.

It will not hurt you to Image Document everything you have been working as with most projects, they ALL must be delayed from time to time. Trying to remember EVERYTHING about the way things looked, Before, During and After can often become maddening. One last thing... If your intent is also to help others her at GMTN... having Pictures and Videos available will absolutley Do The Trick... in each and all "I Need to KNOW..." situations.

I Practice what I Preach about this matter and have memorialized Thousands of Images on all my Various GM Vehicle Projects in discreet Albums on Flickr:

Mr. RSM Mr. RSM’s albums | Flickr

www.flickr.com

I'm paraphrasing here what @Blckshdw once said...

"If You Don't Have Pictures... It NEVER Happened..."

 

[Mooseman]

In message #9 he says he got an 04 (oh-four) motor.

I got it ass-ackwards. Thought it was the 08 that he dropped in and wanted to swap the 04 crank in it. So it's the 04 that has a dead cylinder.

Without checking the crank's specs, which I would assume are the same except for the reluctor, the 04 crank should go in the 08 block. Just check first if the 04 crank sensor fits exactly the same as in the 04's block. Check to see if the main and rod bearings are the same.

Still sucks big time winding up like this.

 

[TollKeeper]

I think it would go in, but with a dead cylinder, swapping the crank wont do anything. Also, with the reluctor being in a non-removable spot, so you cant put in the correct one, you would only be taking steps backwards.

 

[kincadefoster]

Ok so the 08 motor didn't start when it was in, but it did crank over, you can hear if an engine has any significant issues by the way it cranks usually and it sounded like a healthy motor,

So the idea is to swap the 04 crank into the 08 motor and the old CPS fits, same hole and same location.

Is the reluctor not connected directly to the crankshaft?

 

[TollKeeper]

This is the 08 Crankshaft. The toothy piece on the right, 3rd ear in is the reluctor. This is the 54x



This is the 04 crank. The image is flipped compared to the other. The reluctor is in the same location 3rd ear in on the left. But if you look closely at the 2, they are completely different. This is 7x.


7x and 54x relates to the tooth count on the reluctor.

 

[kincadefoster]

Anyone know of any issues I may run into as far as the cranks having any difference other than the reluctor?

Yes I'm going to look at all the bearings as far as size, wear and fit and everything.

The last engine I worked on was an 07 or 08 PT Cruiser, had the walking crank problem which was caused by the manufacturer going cheap on the auto trans version and putting only half a thrust bearing, that was fun, had to pull the whole motor bc the main cap cradle was built into the bottom part of the engine block that bolts on, impossible to do in the car

 

[Mooseman]

My educated guess is it will work. Cranks seem the same, just the reluctors are different.

 

[kincadefoster]

Ugh, so i got this 04 out and pulled the crank and almost every single f**king bolt broke on the main caps, I've worked on TTY bolts before but this is absolutely redonkulus, never had a single one break before now, gotta say I am super super unimpressed with the over-engineering on this beast of a car.. Removing headlights and bumper just to work on it, extra long ends on the axle, just enough to make it really hard to get them out, the top bellhousing bolts, pretty much having to remove the whole car just to pull an engine, I could go on.. what a F**king POS!! I would rather work on a volkswagon!! Chevy's used to be possible to work on..

If the same happens when I pull the main caps on the 08, I guess I'm in for alot of drilling and extracting fun, ha!

 

[mrrsm]

There is nothing unusual about Stretched TTY Bolts having exceeded their Plastic Deformation Limits and Breaking off during their removal. You are dealing with an ALL Aluminum Engine with an Aluminum Engine Head that expands and contracts at THREE TIMES the rate of any Cast Iron Engine Block under conditions that would cause even the Strongest Studs made of 10.9 Hard Steel to simply Snap Off within a matter of just a few Thermal Cycles!

I defy you to find any similar engine that is capable of running for 250,000 to 500,000 Miles ...even when poorly treated ...as well as this Atlas Engine has proven itself capable of achieving ...time and time again. "POS"...? We Hardly Think So...!

Now ignoring all of that... I have a little experience with this latest task you face of Removing Broken Mains Caps Bolt Shanks out of the GM Atlas 4.2L LL8 Engine Blocks. The attached images are excerpted from an Article I've recently posted:

TIME-SERT 101: How to Install Threaded Steel Inserts into the GM Atlas 4.2L LL8 Mains Bolt Holes

Pictorial Overview: https://www.flickr.com/photos/126111508@N07/albums/72157701032583401 Part 1 of 3 Parts: Abstract: This is a Repair Guide for using a Modified Technique vs. the Classic“The TIME-SERT Method” to more precisely install (14) M10 X 1.50 X 40MM Threaded Steel Cylinders inside...

gmtnation.com

You should NOT need to go to the lengths covered therein for creating a Stronger Bottom End in your Motor using the TIME-SERT Method with M10X1.50X40mm Inserts... but the attached images might make this job a little bit easier for you. The inexpensive OTC Drill Guide listed with the Purchase receipt Part Number will prevent the present dilemma going from Bad to Worse, should the Numerous Mains Caps Bolts Holes in the Aluminum Engine Block accidentally get damaged during these numerous but necessary extractions.

Some of them may come out easily... while others may not. Please note that the use I made of Saran Wrap and the Telescoping Neodymium and Kitchen Magnets are NOT trivial matters. The need for controlling the surprisingly large amount of Broken Bolts Drill-Out Dross being created from dropping down inside of all the local vacant Bearing Lubrication Slots and other Openings is obvious.

If these protective measures gets overlooked, it will invite a LOT more unnecessary work and create a whole new set of issues to deal with AFTER the Engine is re-assembled, should any Metal Shavings migrate back into the spaces between the Crankshaft Journals and the Aluminum Silicate Bearing Halves. So in this case... "An Ounce of Prevention ...REALLY IS ...Worth a Pound of CURE.":

Avoid using Compressed "Canned" Air to clear out the Blind Bolt Holes BEFORE all of the Engine Block Openings are covered in that Clear Plastic Cling Wrap. Do NOT Leave any Liquid Brake-Kleen or Oil Lubrication to Pool down inside those Blind Bolt Holes as Hydro-Locking these TTY Bolts before they can thread as far down as necessary will occur and give a False Reading. In all case like this, there is a risk that the Lower Mains Caps will come apart from their Block Halves as soon as the Engine is Started.

 

[Mooseman]

I defy you to find any similar engine that is capable of running for 250,000 to 500,000 Miles ...even when poorly treated ...as well as this Atlas Engine has proven itself capable of achieving ...time and time again. "POS"...? We Hardly Think So...!

And that kind of bitching won't get you ahead and won't make you any friends.

About the only time you need to pull the bumper and headlights is when you're pulling the engine so it's not a regular occurrence.

There are ways of getting TTY bolts off. Smacking them with a punch and hammer before attempting to remove them helps. If they do break, it shouldn't be too bad with it on an engine stand. It's not like when pulling the head and the rear most bolts ALWAYS break. Anyway, you don't care about the 04 engine. Just learn from it and work on the 08.

We realize you're frustrated but if you would have sought out the info on engine compatibility first, it would have avoided a lot of it.

 

[kincadefoster]

If none of you ever got really pissed at a major PITA job you were working on, I'm impressed. This is only my 4th time doing an engine swap on this, first time was an engine from a local junkyard they said it was untested but for $200 we figured it was worth a shot or 2 but after that we decided to get something better, that was the 08, that didn't work, then this 04 which ran but has a dead no 2 cyl, now number 4

And, I got all the main bolts off, no breakage, I'll tell you all the secret..

So I got to thinking about tty bolts and how they stretch and also the friction of the threads and decided they break coming off bc they are over torqued so I decided to get a torque wrench and starting at 35-40 ft-lbs i would keep clicking it counterclockwise, occasionally stopping and turning the other way until it clicked once then back to counterclockwise and noticed with successive clicking it was slowly almost imperceptibly moving until it finally broke free with a click. I got them all off this way, the last one was the hardest, I got up to 50 ft-lbs and clicked it maybe 100 times and for a min was afraid it would not come off, but it finally broke loose.

I didn't realize the rod bolts were also TTY until I looked up the torque spec instructions, so now I have to get some, for some reason they don't carry them in the local parts chain stores but they have the main bolts? Might have to wait a few days to get them

 

[mrrsm]

In order to make your life a little bit easier... I've culled out the 19 Images of The Major GM OEM TTY Fasteners and Gasket Kit Sets showing their Appearances with their Part Numbers necessary for the Complete Re-Build of the GM Atlas 4.2L Engine and posted them in a separate, New Album at my "Flickr-Bucket Account here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126111508@N07/albums/72157715522022386

Please Note that if the Engine Head R&R must be done, there are TWO Atlas Engine TTY M11X2.00 Head Bolt Sets to choose from. One is the OLD STYLE that features a "parting separation Stretch Line very close to the top of the Bolt Thread Lines. The OTHER features a New Style bearing a Parting Line further up the Un-Threaded Shank portion of all the Bolts.

Please check with @m.mcmillen as to WHICH of the two Part Numbers shown here below is the UPDATED Version. With Due Care and Caution during their Installations... either one of these Two Bolt Sets WILL Work.

If you need a the more complete visual reference for the GM OEM Part Numbers vs. the Part appearances... Make frequent visits to my "Flickr-Bucket" collection for much of what you'll be trying to find:

GM_04_42L_NEW_ENGINE_PARTS

This Album contains images of Brand New Engine Parts and Components for the Complete Rebuild of the GM Atlas LL8 4.2L Engine for the years 2002-2004.

www.flickr.com

 

[Mooseman]

That is good to know. Could also be useful for those removing the head bolts.

Yeah, I think most of us have all been there. I saw the inside of my 02's engine way too often, the last time being the replacement of the timing chain, same engine I had replaced previously when I bought it in 2011. It went from being just an engine replacement to a basket case. It turned into a great daily driver until the tranny died.

 

[m.mcmillen]

ES71334 is the improved design head bolts with the stretch point higher.

 

[kincadefoster]

And the harmonic balancer bolt is TTY also.. 110 ft-lbs +180 degrees Wow..! No wonder it was so hard to get off

 

[Mooseman]

Yep. At least your HB wasn't seized on like mine was. Had to get mine off with torches.

 

[kincadefoster]

Ugh, I'm at a loss. Got it all together, engine in, won't start. Code p0366, replaced the cam sensor and actuator using the ones from the 04 block the one that actually ran albeit with dead no 2 cyl. Didn't help

 

[mrrsm]

When all of that activity was taking place... Is there any chance that you photo-documented any ...or all of it... so we can look over things and try to figure out what went wrong?

 

[TJBaker57]

Ugh, I'm at a loss. Got it all together, engine in, won't start. Code p0366, replaced the cam sensor and actuator using the ones from the 04 block the one that actually ran albeit with dead no 2 cyl. Didn't help

I'm having a hard time keeping up with all that has transpried here. I'm not clear on where it is now, what year crank, what year PCM, and so on. A few months ago there was a similar thread involving an engine swap. After a whole lot of diagnostics the owner took it to a guy who looked into the oil fill cap and said "wrong year phaser".. Evidently there are different phaser reluctors as well as crank reluctors. Could this be happening here?.

Edit: here's the post...

NEED HELP - Engine Replaced - Won't Start

2006 Trailblazer EXT LS My son mostly, and I replaced the original engine with a freshly rebuilt one, same year (4.2) - assembled block and head only. We have crank but no start. Vehicle ran fine before engine replacement (rod through engine block). We cleared codes and with no battery, shorted...

gmtnation.com

 

[kincadefoster]

Ya, I started thinking on the phaser too... I really didn't consider that.. a different VVT phaser.. very crafty of the GM engineers..! got me again..!! to change not only the reluctor but also the phaser..! I thought I had a good crank from an 04 with a dead cylinder that could go into the 08 which had a good everything else but wouldn't work otherwise. I was just mostly out of money and completely exasperated of putting the time into it. This project really tripped me up, I've worked on alot of cars, honestly give me a transmission to build, f**k engines I always have bad luck, even built one of these 4L60E's

Ok, so at this point is it faster to pull the crossmember, oil pan and timing cover or pull the engine again? I haven't installed the alternator, power steering pump, bumper, headlights, etc, just wanted to see if it would start first..

At least I may not have to remove the head and pay for more TTY bolts other than the damper pulley

 

[Mooseman]

The cam phaser can be replaced relatively easily. You just need a means or the tools to hold the timing chain while removing the phaser.

How-to: Replace the Cam Phaser (aka: VVT Actuator)

 

[kincadefoster]

I'm thinking on the possibility of using the phaser from this 04 donor motor, but the bolt is TTY? And I can't find the bolt available by itself?