NEED HELP 06 Envoy XL Denali Brakes

Hobbyist4Life

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Hello,

I've purchase an 06 Envoy XL Denali 5.3L from scrapyard that seemed to be in good mechanical condition.

Based on the tires and the spare it came with, I suspect that the car's been sitting since 2011 (tires are 2010 and spare is 2006).

After fabricating a key, it started right up (yay... not) everything seems to be running except for the brakes. The hydraulics of the brakes, to be specific.

In the beginning there was on oil going to the front calipers and the rears were always engaged. After examination turns out the oil goes into the ABS, but doesn't come out to the fronts. Purchased one from scrapyard and tried to install it myself, but this POS didn't want to cooperate. Got 2 brake lines cross threaded and started leaking.

I then purchased another ABS module and let a garage deal with it. It got installed with no leaks to be seen. There was good pressure at the front and back. However, when testing it turns out that the master cylinder can't hold the pressure.

If you press the pedal 3~5 times and hold, the car won't move when put in drive. But if you release and press and hold 1 time after that, the brakes won't hold.

On top of that, in the very beginning the brake booster wouldn't budge (seems like a repair was already attempted before ditching the car in scrapyard, it was installed upside down and repair markes on the housing were visible). So I took it to a guy who fixes boosters and he told me the piston wasn't installed correctly and that it was binding/locked in place. After he fixed it I installed it on the car and a vacuum leak sound appeared and it would go away when I press the brake. I ignored it because at least I could now test the brakes.

After getting the ABS replaced and having pressure in front and back, the garage owner told me to get the booster fixed before continuing so I took it back to the same person and he told me that some part was broken inside and he replaced it. Now there is a vacuum leak sound as soon as I press the brakes.

After figuring out that the master cylinder needs replacement, I'd decided to buy a booster/master combo coming from the same vehicle (preferably). It took me like 7 hours to find them (the 5.3L Envoy is extremely rare here in Qatar).

In the end, I took the booster/master from the same car that I took the first ABS from. This car supposedly stopped 2 months ago due to a transmission problem and the garage bought it from the customer and the took the engine for another car.

After having them installed, the frond driver's caliper bleed screw was removed and a hex screw was shoved in place to stop the oil from coming out. It was like that when I purchased the car and the garage kept holding it off and delaying it. After we got almost everything replaced I bought another front driver's caliper from scrapyard due to the screw that was shoved and mainly because one of the pistons was chipped. We thought this is the last piece of the puzzle and that everything would work beautifully now... Yeah, right..

So after installing the booster/master and replacing the front driver's caliper, the garage attempted a (supposedly final) brake bleed. There was good pressure at the front, but not so much at the back. However, the car is able to stop using the front brakes.

The garage owner told me to take the car for a spin around the garage and use the brakes a lot. He said this is supposed to get the pedal firmer (trapped air moves to different location) and he'll bleed it again.

Needless to say, the pedal didn't get any better, but at least the front brakes are working now. He then decided to try the old master cylinder again since that one was providing good pressure to both front and back. After getting it installed the bleeding attempt failed. Now there's no pressure at all neither the front nor the rear. Then he installed the new one again and same thing, no pressure at the front (which previously had good pressure) and no pressure at the rear.

He was very stubborn when I talk to him about my findings on the Internet to the point that he told me to either go his way (with his 20 years of experience) or go with the Internet. This talk was in the first couple of days when I put the car in his garage, so I told him to do whatever he wants but I need it fixed.

After all this, he gave up confused and I told him there must be air trapped in the ABS (he kept blaming the booster and master cylinder).

Having spent so much money on this car, my father decided that we should take it to the stealership, and we did. I have agreed with them to bleed the system and go from there. The next day they infirmed me that I need to purchase a new master cylinder, Brake Booster, ABS valve modulator & E.B.C.M. I believe they didn't do the bleed that we agreed on and they just put this list (I had previously told the stealership what was done before bringing the car). Going back and forth they told me that the E.B.C.M wasn't responding to the bleeding command (which I still feel that he didn't do, he doesn't want to give me details), and I told him I have 2 in the car and he kept repeating you can't buy from scrapyard it has to be new and ordered based on the VIN number etc etc...

They didn't have the E.B.C.M in stock so he gave me the part number and told me to order online or bring it from the surrounding countries. I checked the ones that I had from scrap yard and they were the same part number and now he got a little convinced to try them.

He's requesting about $350 to program 1 of them to the car and do the manual and scanner bleeding, with no guarantee that this would work and we'd have to pay the same amount to try the other one if this one doesn't work. After further discussion, he offered to try both for $430.

If we don't proceed with the stealership we'll have to pay $150 for inspection fees.

What do you guys suggest?
 

Hobbyist4Life

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I know this is too much info but the thing is I have already paid around $2800 on this car including vehicle price, insurance, 2 tires, and the rest is all brakes.

My father is now thinking to pay the $150 and take the car to another garage that works specifically on American cars only (after we talk to the owner and tell him the story I wrote in the previous post)
 

TollKeeper

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You are correct, that you need the ABS module activated for a proper bleed. As far as I know, this has to be performed with the TECH2 module. I have seen on other forums, where someone has bled the system they best they could, and went out to a country road, got up to speed, and locked up the brakes, activating the ABS. He then rebled the system, and repeated 2-3 times until the pedal got to his feel. I am not sure if this will work the the GMT platform or not, just putting it out there.
 
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Hobbyist4Life

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Yes, I do remember reading a solution that says to activate the ABS module on the street.

However, my problem is that I don't have any sort of braking power. Could the ABS trap that much air?

The other problem is the stealership is not giving me details on what they've tried (I have a hunch they haven't tried anything)
 
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TollKeeper

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Knowing what I know about my local dealer, that wouldnt surprise me.
 
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mrrsm

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As per @TollKeeper in Post#3 ... Listen to HOW LOUD The Brake Module sounds when it gets Activated by the Tech 2

 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
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I would take it to a shop that know NA vehicles.

I'm thinking that the master cylinder you have in there is not providing fluid pressure to the rear brakes. When you replace the MC, you have yo bench bleed it before installing it. There are new and rebuilt MC's available. (BTW, qll I6 and V8 brake components are identical except for the rotors and front caliper brackets for the bigger rotors)

Have you tried cracking open the lines at the ABS module (in and out) to see if fluid comes out when you press the pedal? What about cracking open the lines at the calipers? There is a possibility that the hoses have collapsed and restricting fluid.

Are the caliper pistons moving freely? Have you tried replacing the calipers?
 

Hobbyist4Life

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First off, I'd like to apologize. I just noticed that I opened the thread in the other section, not the one for TB/Envoy etc..

@MRRSM I know what the process is like, I've previously done it to my TB LS back when I was working in a garage with a MaxiSYS scanner (just experimenting)


Now Mooseman, I want you to give this post your full focus.

This post should be read and re-read thoroughly in order to get to the same page I'm at.

I would take it to a shop that know NA vehicles.

Who knows better than the stubborn headed stealership??

Anyway, I've talked to the owner of the GM-specialist garage and he basically told me that the problem could actually be from the ABS valves, or could be the E.B.C.M (which should put on a code and get MIL going). However, I don't think the ABS is the problem and I'll state why as I go in this post.

The problem is I feel like the people I talk to are just waiting for me to finish the story, instead of going through the details.

I'm thinking that the master cylinder you have in there is not providing fluid pressure to the rear brakes. When you replace the MC, you have yo bench bleed it before installing it. There are new and rebuilt MC's available.

Ok, let's start here. I have 2 MC's, let's call them MC1 (came with the car) and MC2 (purchased from a car that stopped moving 2 months ago due to a transmission problem).

So, after replacing the ABS with a non-leaking one, MC1 had good pressure in both front and rear. However, you'd have to press the pedal a couple of times (quickly) for the brakes to start holding. And after holding, releasing and pressing the brakes again wouldn't engage the brakes. Figured MC1 might have internal leaks, so I purchased MC2.

I told the garage owner to take the oil reservoir from MC1 and install it on MC2 because it simply was cleaner. However, he insisted on cleaning it with water and then drying it with air pressure (based on his experience, this is a no problem'o)

Got MC2 installed and there is good pressure in the front but not so much from the rear. took it for a spin in hopes of the pedal getting better, not happening. He then decided to try MC1 again and see if it works (now that a good booster is in) but now there is no pressure in the front or back. MC1 previously provided good pressure to both, but not anymore. so we installed MC2 again and the pressure was completely gone. No front, no rear, nothing!

This lead me to think that air MUST be trapped in the ABS. The MC's internal seals can't go bad by removing it and reinstalling it again, it just makes absolutely no sense. What do you guys think??

I talked to the garage I worked in previously and he refused to give me the scanner, and told me to bring the car in and work on it myself over there.

At this point, my father decided to take to the stealership.

(BTW, qll I6 and V8 brake components are identical except for the rotors and front caliper brackets for the bigger rotors)

Hold that thought, this is not entirely true. Yes, the rear calipers/drums are the same and front have bigger rotors, pads AND different caliper (the old one can be mounted on the same brackets, I think, hence the confusion). On top of that, the booster is larger and the master cylinder is a bit longer. This can be confirmed with part numbers if anyone's interested.

Have you tried cracking open the lines at the ABS module (in and out) to see if fluid comes out when you press the pedal? What about cracking open the lines at the calipers? There is a possibility that the hoses have collapsed and restricting fluid.

I would've loved that, but the garage owner and workers were very skeptical about playing with the hoses, since some of them are rounded and they don't want to get things worse.

As for the calipers, that's were they were trying to bleed the system and check the pressure at the same time. The hoses seem to fine, and I have my TB LS to take the hoses from if need be.

Are the caliper pistons moving freely? Have you tried replacing the calipers?

Before tackling the hydraulics of the brake system, I had taken apart the rear brakes, took the drums and brake shoe and pads from my TB LS, and the driver side caliper because the piston wasn't straight. I have cleaned the slide pins and greased them and ensured smooth operation before closing them up.

Then I went to the front and found that there's no oil at all and the driver side caliper had a chipped piston and the bleeder screw was replaced with a shoved up hex screw before I purchased the car. So I ended up buying a scrapyard one that seemed to be good.



I need your opinion about the state of MC2 & ABS module and E.B.C.M. I personally don't think there's any problem with any of them, and it's just a matter of trapped air in the ABS and the stealership requesting new parts without doing the work we agreed on. They literally told me to get new MC, Booster, ABS, & E.B.C.M and that scrapyard parts wouldn't work because they have to be ordered based on VIN number which to me, sounds like a total BS and just a cause for headache and unnecessarily paying for parts.

My father has decided to buy a new ABS and E.B.C.M (which would cost about $520) and give it to the stealership and pay the $350 for installation, programming, and manual and scanner bleeding.

I need thoughts and suggestions ATM. I'm trying to hold off ordering the parts that I'm pretty sure I don't need!
 
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Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
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Ottawa, ON
MC1 had good pressure in both front and rear. However, you'd have to press the pedal a couple of times (quickly) for the brakes to start holding.

Right there, that tells me you have air in your lines. Likely in the ABS modulator. It needs to be bled using a Tech 2 or other high end scanner.

This lead me to think that air MUST be trapped in the ABS. The MC's internal seals can't go bad by removing it and reinstalling it again, it just makes absolutely no sense. What do you guys think??

As stated above, yes.

And using water to clean brake parts is a big NO-NO since brake fluid is hydroscopic (absorbs water). Brake cleaner you would use only on metal or hard plastic parts like the reservoir. Definitely wouldn't want anything inside the MC or calipers with the rubber seals other than brake fluid.

That Stealer is truly a thief trying to force you to buy "their" new parts without even trying to diagnose and attempt bleeding the ABS. If the Tech 2 can command it and there are no error codes, it is fine. The EBCM only needs to be replaced if it has failed and the ABS light is on with a code saying it has failed. You can replace just the valve body separately from the EBCM if the valve part has failed. Now the MC may have been damaged by this water cleansing or whatever was done by that shop so maybe a new or rebuilt one may be a good idea. It doesn't have to be the Stealer's parts. I have in the past replaced brake lines and MCs and taken it to the dealer to have it bled because of air in the ABS. I bled it myself as much as I could, drove it to the dealer, told them to bleed the entire system and they did. However, you're dealing with an entirely different situation; a truck with a very sketchy past, used parts, poor/unknown repair practices. It is a risk that the bleed may fail to correct your issues and you'll still have to pay for it.

Here's what I would do. I would put in a new/rebuilt MC (they're not that expensive) and bleed it as best you can. If the ABS is not showing the light on or codes, get it bled by a shop that has a scan tool that can command the ABS. Don't forget that the MC has to be bench bled before being installed.

PS: I moved this thread to the proper section. I'm surprised I even missed that!
 

Hobbyist4Life

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Right there, that tells me you have air in your lines. Likely in the ABS modulator. It needs to be bled using a Tech 2 or other high end scanner.

So you think that MC1 is actually good?!

If what I described tells you that the ABS has air trapped inside then MC1 should be working properly and undamaged, right?


And using water to clean brake parts is a big NO-NO since brake fluid is hydroscopic (absorbs water). Brake cleaner you would use only on metal or hard plastic parts like the reservoir. Definitely wouldn't want anything inside the MC or calipers with the rubber seals other than brake fluid.

First off, as I mentioned earlier he was stubborn. He was so stubborn that he told me do you want me to fix it or should I do what you want?! He think his 20 or so years of experience is superior to whatever information I tell him.

As for the cleaning, he separated the reservoir from MC2 and cleaned it with water and toothbrush, then dried it with compressed air. Not sure if he did anything to the MC itself.

That Stealer is truly a thief trying to force you to buy "their" new parts without even trying to diagnose and attempt bleeding the ABS. If the Tech 2 can command it and there are no error codes, it is fine. The EBCM only needs to be replaced if it has failed and the ABS light is on with a code saying it has failed.

The problem with the first sentence is that they don't even have the parts in stock. He's telling to pay half price so they can order them and it'd take 30~40 days to get the car done. He also offered to provide the part numbers and allowed us to order online or from surrounding countries and give him the parts.

To me it looks like he simply doesn't want to get in an argument if he did what he should do and the brakes still don't work. I think that's why he's telling us to buy new parts. But still, he has no rights to ignore what I requested him to do.


You can replace just the valve body separately from the EBCM if the valve part has failed.

That's what I've done with the scrapyard ABS that I purchased, and the ABS light is actually off.


Now the MC may have been damaged by this water cleansing or whatever was done by that shop so maybe a new or rebuilt one may be a good idea. It doesn't have to be the Stealer's parts. I have in the past replaced brake lines and MCs and taken it to the dealer to have it bled because of air in the ABS. I bled it myself as much as I could, drove it to the dealer, told them to bleed the entire system and they did. However, you're dealing with an entirely different situation; a truck with a very sketchy past, used parts, poor/unknown repair practices. It is a risk that the bleed may fail to correct your issues and you'll still have to pay for it.

I don't think that MC2 got damaged, the first time it was installed there was good pressure at the front. Then MC1 got installed again, but this time there's no pressure at all. MC2 got installed again after that, and still no pressure at all.

As I said earlier, the problem seems to be with stuck air rather than MC.

Here's what I would do. I would put in a new/rebuilt MC (they're not that expensive) and bleed it as best you can. If the ABS is not showing the light on or codes, get it bled by a shop that has a scan tool that can command the ABS.

As I said earlier in this post, I don't think MC is the problem, and there is no ABS light.

Also, the car is still at the stealer so I'll have to pay $150 in order to get the car out and then take it to another garage that has a scanner that does the bleeding.

In other words, I'm kinda tied to the stealer now. I'll get back there tomorrow and put an end to the mystery of what work they've done (which I think is nothing) and go from there.

Don't forget that the MC has to be bench bled before being installed.

The way shops bleed MC's here is by opening the lines while it's installed and let the brake oil drip on whatever is below, and when they think there's no more air they close the lines and rinse the oil with some water.

However, none of the MC's were bench bled because the nuts of the lines are somewhat fragile and some of them are already rounded so they don't want to get things worse.

PS: I moved this thread to the proper section. I'm surprised I even missed that!

Haha, even I haven't noticed until I opened the forum from my laptop to write the previous post xD
 

mrrsm

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I've scoured this series of posts for the most important issue as proposed multiple times by @Mooseman... and while waiting for the "the OTHER shoe to Drop..." your replies (somewhat brittle and defensive at times...) have NOT clarified that you have actually performed any "Bench Bleeds" on either MC1 ...or MC2.

The Elephant in The Room...

Incidentally... if the people at GMTN who respond to your Open Ended Questions in the absolute absence of knowing just how deep or shallow your Mechanical Knowledge is... get Chastised with the Idea of , "Look... I already KNOW this..."...and ..." YOU there... I want YOUR UNDIVIDED ATTENTION" ... this may tend to 'Dry Up The Well of Willing Assistance' like a Pop-Corn Fart from those among us... who really do want to help you.

Back to the Subject at Hand:

If you do NOT perform the Bench Bleed Procedure properly at the outset... How can you possibly know whether or not One or Both of your MCs have been Purged of Air? The Process is NOT a 'trivial pursuit' and it involves a bit more than merely "Mashing on the Brake Pedal" enough times with enough follow on "Wheel Brake Bleeds" afterwards to successfully find and expel the Re-Cycling Trapped Air Pockets inside of these MCs that can ONLY be removed as follows:


 
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Hobbyist4Life

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I am very much aware of the process of bench bleeding MC's, and I've requested them to do it multiple times. But as I said, they were stubborn. I have already mentioned in my last post that non of them were bench bled and that the shop owner (and workers) believed that the air in the MC can be bled with the rest of the system.

Long story short, no MC's were bench bled, ABS light is off, ABS valve module thing replaced with scrapyard unit, there is currently no brakes at all, almost no resistance in the brake pedal, car stuck at stealer asking for $150 or bringing new ABS and E.B.C.M and paying $350 for installation and bleeding.

I very much would like to take it back from the stealer but I won't pay $150 if they haven't done anything. I'll try and sort this out with the stealer tomorrow.


Period.
 
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Hobbyist4Life

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Ok, so here's an update on the matter.

I ended up paying $55 to get the car released from the stealership (it was a Chevy stealer). Turns out my father's friend knows someone in GMC's stealer.

After getting in touch with him, he offered to check the vehicle and bleed the system free of charge, so I gave it to their head branch where he works.

Today he contacted me and told me he did a full bleed (including scanner bleeding) and the brakes are better, but still only half the pedal is functioning and that I need to buy a new MC.

I have placed an order on amazon for ACDelco 174-1133 GM OE master cylinder. Should take 3-7 days to arrive (international BS, yay..)

I also ordered Dorman 13911 MC bleeding kit, which I hope has the correct thread and size for the MC.

I'll update back once it arrives and gets installed.

Out of curiosity, is it possible that MC1 is actually good? It had good pressure at front and back but needs pressing the pedal multiple time to hold the car. Haven't tested it on the road, but it was tested while stopped going from N to D and seeing if it holds.
 

mrrsm

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When it comes to any Master Cylinder... it is ALWAYS a better idea to be Safe... Than Sorry. Everything that matters to you and your family ...as well as others around you when you are driving that vehicle... absolutely counts on that Damned Thing to Work FLAWLESSLY each and every time. The Dual Piston (Plunger) with its multiplicity of Seals and Chambers can invariably develop problems with Aging Seals Cracking or just plain getting worn out... and the Chambers or "Cylinders" within which they move back and forth can also become scarred and flawed from the presence of Moisture or Liquid Water inside of the entire Braking System allowing the Fluid to sneak around the Seals and loose compressibility and that feel of a "Solid Brake Pedal".

Like any Major Component made of Austentite Cast Iron... they WILL Completely Rust Up INSIDE ...even under conditions that are supposed to be "Anaerobic". But... Nothing could be further from The Truth. All DOT 3 Brake Fluid is "Hygroscopic" (...Yes... NOT Hydroscopic)... and this means that each and every time that the Master Cylinder is opened up... that Fluid sitting inside is working away furiously to Absorb as much Moisture as it can grab ... Right out of the Air. The other problems are that even if the MC itself may not be contaminated... any of the Moisture Laden Air that infected the Fluid further down inside ofr the Brake Lines will eventually Rust Up The Innards over time.

Again... those lines are ordinarily Made of Mild Steel and will likewise become Rusty and thinned out and weakened over time. So Regular Brake Bleeding are never a Luxury...but an Absolute Necessity. The Chemical make up of Brake Fluid can vary depending upon the Highest Temperature it was Manufactured to Resist Boiling out into a Vapor inside of the Brake Lines. All Brakes are singularly reliant upon One Basic Principle (Courtesy Boyles Law and Guy named Bernoulli who pioneered in the field of Hydraulics and Airfoils ...and even Carburation):

ALL Liquids ...are INCOMPRESSIBLE.

If things like Air Bubbles invade the Brake System... or if the Fluid inside of the Wheel Brake Cylinders gets so Hot that it begins to Boil and Vaporize at Temperatures Higher than it is Rated to Resist... You Can Kiss Your Brakes ...Good Bye. I like your current approach to taking things right back down to a Base Level... and as long as you follow some Tried and True Brake Bleeding Procedures, Your Brake Pedal will come to Heel...and Stay as 'Solid as a Rock' for as long as the associated Hardware at the Wheels gets well maintained.

This video is one that was made a while back by one of our Members at GMT Nation... and is an Excellent Primer of the Correct Way to Bleed Your Own Brakes and ensure that the Job Gets Done RIGHT:


Your ultimate success is important to us all... Please keep us updated on how things go with your Final Repairs.
 
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Hobbyist4Life

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I'm back! Time for an update.

Sorry for the late reply, I got quite busy and the 'voy stopped cranking...
Anyway, back to the subject!

As I last posted, the GMC dealer bled the air out of the system. They told me I have half a pedal and would need a new MC. However, when I drove the car, the brakes were functioning almost as good as my TB (R.I.P).

I had ordered a new GM OE MC (When it comes to brakes and A/C, everything MUST be original. To me, at least) that very same day. I installed it after like a week, and introduced new air to the system (Yes, I "bench bled" the MC before installing) and due to that air the brakes would only start to hold at the end of the pedal. So I thought it just needs to be bled again.

I attempted to bleed the air at the MC lines, but I couldn't do it alone. The next day I started the 'voy and went back inside my home for like 30 minutes (had some stuff to do) and when I went back to the car the brakes were as good as before replacing the MC.

Now, I know for a fact that there is air in the system (from when I replaced the MC) and it seems to have passed the ABS module. I've been using it like this for like a month and a half now. I have no idea how leaving the car started and idling for a while made the brakes better, but I'm pretty sure if I bleed the system again the brake pedal would get rock hard (which I personally haven't seen yet, on either my TB or 'voy, you can say I'm pretty much jinxed when it comes to brakes :bonk:).

The conclusion is, the first stealership did NOTHING (as I suspected) to the vehicle, and it just needed to be bled. I've been planning to get back to them and put it up their (ehm..) eyes but it stopped cranking, which is another story I'll open a new thread for.


Edit:
This video is one that was made a while back by one of our Members at GMT Nation...

*Grasp* WHAT! I had no idea that ChrisFix is a fellow member of GMT Nation. I've been a long time subscriber and seen that video multiple times before. Again, I know what should be done but the garage dude wanted to do things his way..
 
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Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
He is a member but inactive. He came on a long time ago when he was working on a TB but hasn't been here since. His handle here is @dogfish.

For your brakes. I'd think maybe the vibrations might have worked the bubbles up the MC. I would still bleed them for the peace of mind. Do it before any air might get into the ABS.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Yes. As long as the ABS isn't activated with air in the lines, it should pass right through. It's if you have air in the lines and the ABS is activated, air can be trapped in the modulator, which will then need to be cycled back out either with a scan tool or driving on a dirt road and hitting the brakes.
 

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