05 envoy 4.2 puking oil.

redline customs

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Aug 25, 2016
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Alright, so I've been working with this envoy for a bit. Last weekend, I was driving and heard a weird noise. Pulled over and popped the hood, the water pump pulley was wobbling. O'Reilly's was about 10 miles up the road and I was in the middle of nowhere, so I decided to trek on. Made it to a few miles and all hell broke loose. Noise ramped up in volume so I started to pull over when the belt snapped(I think it actually walked off the pulley.) I had to keep going as I had my less than a week old newborn as well as my wife, 5, and 6 year old son and daughter. I made certain it didn't get hot. Took another vehicle to O'Reilly's, and got a new water pump and belt. Got those put on and was running the car to get the air out of the system. Looked under to check and see if coolant was leaking, and got a nasty surprise. Oil was damn near pouring out of the engine. Shut it off and started looking around. Was quite a bit all over, but it seems to be that it is coming from behind the harmonic balancer. I did have a piece of belt that I had to fight to get out of there. I'm thinking that it got wound up and messed up the crank seal. I've swapped one of these engines out in the old reaper, but never took the pulley off,so I have no idea what it looks like behind there. Am I on the right track? Any other likely concerns? I'll be pulling the balancer off this weekend to check, just looking for advice. Thanks
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
What about a power steering line broken? Tranny cooling line? I would imagine you checked those.

Getting the balancer off may be easy or a total b!tch. I've had it both ways. The balancer would not come out in my '02 when I was doing the timing chain however I had one come right off on a junker almost without a puller. This write up talks about it a bit.
How to replace I6 timing chain and tensioner

In your case, you should be able to replace the seal without taking the cover off.
 

Mounce

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Mar 29, 2014
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First thing I was thinking was crank seal, just came to agree with your assumption. Seen it a few times on other vehicles after they eat a belt and it wraps around the crank like that.
 

redline customs

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Aug 25, 2016
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northwest arkansas
Mooseman, yeah I did check those. Best I could anyway. It does appear to be coming from behind the harmonic balancer. Is there any other way of getting the balancer off than the $140 puller that has to be ordered from gm? I was reading another post about removing them and that's what was said, but it has been a few years so I'm hoping there is an aftermarket or could be rented from O'Reilly or AutoZone. Thanks for the replies guys.

Mounce, that was what I was figuring was that. Just wasn't sure if there was another common failure point behind there.
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
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Ottawa, ON
Is there any other way of getting the balancer off than the $140 puller that has to be ordered from gm?

You only need that Spent-Moore tool if it has that funky balancer with the round plate in front, just like in the pics in my write up. Yours is an 05 so it should be a normal balancer that you should be able to pull with a 3 jaw gear puller. And if it's a bit tougher to get off, then the puller @m.mcmillen posted should work unless it's rust welded on like mine was.
 
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Reprise

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FYI - your local AAP, AZ, etc., should have them for rent. If you decide to try it with a regular 3 jaw (e.g.; a Harbor Freight special), you'll likely need the 8" one. They sell a set of three, but even the largest one of those (6") is likely too small.

I'm going to be pulling mine off on the Sierra in the next few days, and I have the 8" puller. If I do it before you get to yours, I'll post up how it went in my build thread.

Oh, and you're going to need something to break the torque on the crank bolt, if you don't have air tools. I've got something planned for that, as well (I have air, but am going to use another tool, first). Mine is torqued to 225 ft/lb, and yours is probably similar, so get your breaker / cheater bars ready. Takes a lot of force to loosen up 225 ft/lb

(to the board: if there's a standard calc to determine this, rather than just saying "a lot", feel free to chime in).
 
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redline customs

Original poster
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Aug 25, 2016
171
northwest arkansas
Mooseman,
Awesome, I didn't realize there were different iterations. Thanks for that I do have a 8" 3 jaw.
M.mcmillen,
I have a similar one and will try it thank you.
Reprise,
Thanks for the tips. I have access to all the air tools I might need(including a 1" tommygun impact used on big rig parts, so I think(hope) if the 1/2" drive don't do it that will.) We've got a 5 gallon compressor and that ain't enough we made an adaptor to run air tools from a gladhand.
 

Reprise

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NP. I just learned what a 'gladhand' is, so thank you for that :tiphat:

1/2" gun should do it, if you can get sufficient air to it. Even a 3/4" would likely be overkill.

Just make sure the crank is immobilized - I have a flywheel lock tool that connects in place of the starter on mine, but leaving the belts attached on yours might be sufficient, too (you only have the one serpentine, IIRC... the V8s have a second smaller belt for the A/C compressor).

Finally, there are 3 'lip' sections on the back of the balancer - make sure the jaws are sitting on those lips (they hold the puller, and keep you from galling the metal casting). It won't take too much effort to pull it off - the crank bolt is the b!tch part of the job. Oh, and get a new crank bolt. Read up on the procedure to reattach the balancer using old / new bolts.

Also look at the rubber inserts on the balancer -- if they're cracked, etc., a new one is in order.

Supposedly, you don't need to mark / align where the balancer was oriented on the crank, pre-pull, but I'm going to do mine, b/c I'm anal-retentive. LOL
 
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mrrsm

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The easiest way to "Freeze The Crankshaft" in place on all GM Atlas LL8 4.2L Engines is to first locate and remove the Black Plastic Plug situated at the underside very back of the Crankcase:

42LFLEXPLATEACCESSA.jpg

After that, pull out that Black Plastic Plug and use a Mirror to try and locate (1) of the (3) Torque Converter Bolts while peeking though the opening:

42LFLEXPLATEACCESSB.jpg

Next... Use a Large Breaker Bar and Socket fitted to the Crankshaft Bolt and ...VERY SLOWLY... Rotate the Crankshaft Clockwise incrementally while attempting to align (1) of the (3) Torque Converter Bolts Dead Center inside that Opening. This Technique works best if you have a Helper using a Mirror to Eyeball things as the TC Bolt comes into View and aligns with that Hole.

Alternatively, You can locate the Dual Rubber Plugs situated in between the Back of the Engine Block and the 4L60E Transmission and Carefully PRY Them Out to give you access to the Flex-Plate's "Toothy" Fire Ring Gear:

42LFLEXPLATEACCESS1.jpg42LFLEXPLATEACCESS2.jpg

Then while working through the space where the Rubber Plugs were removed on the Driver's Side of this locale, use a Large, Flat Blade Screwdriver and ... SLOWLY... wedge the Blade into the Teeth and Rotate the Flex-Plate Clockwise around until any (1) of the (3) Torque Converter Bolts aligns perfectly inside the Center of the Hole in the Back of the Crankcase-Oilpan. Check the Position often so you avoid going past this alignment of (1) TC Bolt every 120 Degrees of Rotation:

42LFLEXPLATEACCESSB.jpg

Next, fit a Breaker Bar to a 15mm Deep Socket and guide it through that hole and fit it snugly over the Torque Converter Bolt in such a way as to hold the Breaker Bar in a Braced Position.

After that... Follow the suggestions @Mooseman made to remove the Old TTY Crankshaft-Harmonic Balancer Bolt & HB and Sh*t Can that Bolt.

(A) Purchase a Brand New TTY HB Bolt from RockAuto (around $10.00).

(B) After first installing the New HB TTY Bolt with 110 Foot Pounds of Torque, PAINT A WHITE VERTICAL REFERENCE LINE ON THE BOLT FACE.

(C) Then Rotate that Bolt another 180 Degrees (FROM 12:00 TO 6:00) to achieve the Final TTY.


Following these procedures WILL prevent the dreaded P1345 Code (Crankshaft Position Correlation Fault) from setting later on.

Please... make Damned Certain that the 15mm Socket is quite firmly in place and that the Breaker Bar is likewise secure BEFORE you apply any "Purple Jesus Torque" to that New TTY Crankshaft Bolt.
 

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Mooseman

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Following these procedures WILL prevent the dreaded P1345 Code (Crankshaft Position Correlation Fault) from setting later on.

I don't see how any of this has to do with that code. This code can come up if you disturb the crank sensor or there is a problem with the timing chain or the cam phaser.
 

mrrsm

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Please bear in mind that this reply to Post #11 IS On Topic regarding the OP's need to Remove and Replace the Harmonic Balancer and perform the R&R of the Leaking Timing Case Crankshaft Seal:

As per the TSB on this problem... the P1345 Code can also rear its ugly head if the Harmonic Balancer Pulley is NOT properly fastened in place onto the Nose of the Crankshaft by either under-tightening the HB TTY Bolt or by Re-Using an Old One . This information prompted my Cautionary Mention to stave off any issues for the OP later on.

The resulting slippage affects the Crankshaft-Camshaft Correlation and surprisingly, GM recommends a Complete Engine Replacement if the snugness cannot be achieved enough to prevent the P1345 from occurring:

The Harmonic Balancer Issue is mentioned among the possible causes for the P1345 in the last paragraph below:

#PI00156C: SES Light with a P1345 or P0016 and a Possible Rough Idle - kw 4.2 camshaft condition control DTC idle intermittent light LL* MIL performance poor repair rough solenoid - (Jan 26, 2005)
Subject: SES Light with a P1345 or P0016 and a Possible Rough Idle

Models:

The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in the PI.

Condition/Concern:

Some 2002 - 2004 models that are equipped with the 4.2L (VIN S - RPO LL8) engine may experience a SES Light due to a P0016 or P1345 DTC and a possible rough idle.
Recommendation/Instructions:

If the SI diagnostics do not isolate a cause, the following information may help:

- Control of the Cam Phaser Actuator solenoid is inhibited when a P0016 (04 Model Year) or P1345 (02 - 03 Model Year) DTC is stored.

- If this DTC started after recent internal engine repairs, inspect for proper engine mechanical timing. With the camshaft cover removed and the #1 cylinder at top dead center, make sure that the darkened chain links are lined up with the alignment marks on the exhaust and intake cam sprockets. At this point, J44221 should fit over the rear cam flats and the word Delphi (on the front of the Cam Phaser Actuator sprocket) should be parallel with the front edge of the cylinder head. Note: It may take up to 14 crankshaft revolutions before all timing alignment marks line up with each other.

- Engines built after 2/5/01 include a thin friction washer (P/N 12573950) between the dampener and the crank gear and the torque specification was increased to 110 ft-lbs plus 180 degrees to prevent crankshaft gear and alignment pin damage. If there is any history of the crank dampener bolt ever being loose, the crankshaft gear and alignment pin may be damaged, which can cause these DTCs.

- If a P0016 or P1345 is resetting without any engine performance concerns but the SI diagnostics and the above information did not isolate a cause for the DTC, replace the Cam Phaser Actuator sprocket.

#PIP3659A: SES Light After Internal Engine Repairs Due to DTC P0016 or P1345 - keywords after cam correlation crank DTC induced previous replacement seal since spring timing valve - (Jan 4, 2006)
Subject: SES Light After Internal Engine Repairs Due DTC P0016 or P1345

Models: 2004 Buick Rainier
2002-2004 Chevrolet TrailBlazer
2002-2004 GMC Envoy
2002-2004 Oldsmobile Bravada
with 4.2L Engine (VIN S - RPO LL8)

The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:

Depending on the model year, a P0016 or P1345 may be encountered after internal engine repairs that required resetting of the timing chain tensioner or removal and installation of the exhaust camshaft actuator sprocket. This may be the result of a mistimed engine or damaged exhaust camshaft actuator.

Recommendation/Instructions:

If this concern is encountered and the SI diagnostics do not isolate the cause, review the following information and inspect for a damaged exhaust camshaft actuator or mistimed engine as necessary:

- The spline style exhaust camshaft actuator used on 2004 model year and earlier 4.2L engines is designed to operate between 25 degrees of retard and 0 degrees (full advance/rest/clockwise position). There is a stop tab inside of the camshaft actuator that prevents the exhaust cam from advancing beyond the rest position under normal operating conditions. This tab can bend if the exhaust cam/actuator is forced to rotate beyond the rest position (full advance/full clockwise) during internal engine repairs. If this occurs, it may be noted that the reluctor portion of the actuator is a few degrees more advanced (clockwise) than a known good one. With the actuator sprocket in place and the #1 piston at top dead center, it may be noted that the rear cam flat of the exhaust cam is not flat when compared with the rear cam flat of the intake cam. Upon further inspection, it may also be noted that the word Delphi that is on the cam reluctor portion of the actuator is slightly rotated toward the driver side even though the intake cam flat is flat. If this is suspected to be the cause of this concern, it will be necessary to replace the exhaust camshaft actuator again, taking care not to damage it upon reassembly. As mentioned in SI, do not force the camshaft actuator to rotate clockwise upon assembly. If it does not move easily, it is already fully advanced. New camshaft actuators are already packaged in the fully advanced (clockwise) position. This type of damage should not occur on 2005 model year and newer 4.2L engines because they are equipped with a vane style exhaust camshaft actuator, which is designed differently than the spline style actuator.

- If the timing chain tensioner had to be reset, this concern could be the result of incorrect cam to crank timing. As the timing chain tensioner is released, chain slack between the crankshaft and tensioner is eliminated. As the slack is eliminated, it is very easy for the timing chain to shift one tooth at the crankshaft sprocket without being noticed by the technician. If this occurs, it is unlikely to isolate the incorrect cam to crank timing without removing the front cover. When properly timed, the timing marks should line up as shown below once every 14 crankshaft revolutions with the #1 piston at top dead center. If all 3 of these timing marks never line up at the same time, re-time the engine by following SI procedures.

Object Number: 898507
Click here for detailed picture of above image.

Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.

Diagnostic Aids

Important: Scan tool control of the CMP actuator solenoid is inhibited when DTC P1345 sets.

The following conditions may cause this DTC to set:
An improperly torqued harmonic balancer
• A misbuilt or mis-timed engine
A loose or missing crank damper bolt
• The camphaser solenoid stuck open
• The camphaser stuck in a position other than 0 degrees
• The camphaser does not return to 0 degrees within 16 seconds exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.
 
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Mooseman

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His is an '05.
 
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redline customs

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Aug 25, 2016
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northwest arkansas
I think it's safe to say I found the problem. Got the balancer off using a $20 3 jaw that I ground down the hooks on because they were too thick to get in behind the pulley.KIMG0174.JPG
 

Reprise

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The black outer edge is the remainder of the seal. Remove it. Careful not to scratch / gouge the mating surface of the cover.

A 'hook' style pick tool would probably be good for removing the remnants (pull straight forward toward you; try to puncture into the lip of the seal if you can, as far from the edge of the cover as you can)

I see a lot of remnants in the area, behind the crank snout, etc. I don't envy the task you have to clean all of that out without driving any of it into the crank area.

Actually... I think I'd remove the cover, if it's like the ones on the LS engines -- it'll make it easier to clean things out, and you've done the difficult part already by removing the balancer. Yes, you'll also then need a front cover gasket, but for what you'll gain in ease of access by pulling the cover, I think it's worth it, IMHO.
 

redline customs

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Aug 25, 2016
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northwest arkansas
I was thinking about doing this anyways as I was wanting to check the condition of timing chain, tensioner, etc. Was debating about going ahead and changing all of that at this time because I do not want to have to do all this over after I get it together, plus I have no idea of last service on it. I do have an exhaust camshaft timing over advanced code(present before all of this) and was going to replace the solenoid to see if that fixed. Any good visual checks I can do with the timing components while I have it apart just to see? What should a good system look like?
 

redline customs

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Mcmillen, I know all about pulling the oil pan. Luckily I have a 2wd, and my old tb was 2wd, but when I shattered my #1 rod and got a donor motor, it came from a 4wd. Not something I want to do again. When I pulled the op off my original tb motor, I found 17 pieces of the rod in the oil pan. Head's up, seems what happened was the main cap bolt started working itself out. Was hitting on the cradle and wore a notch into it. Finally let go all the way and started coming out, and grabbed the cradle and boom.
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
Even without the 4x4 stuff, it's still a lot of work. As long as you know what you're gettng yourself into. That thread I linked earlier spells it out.
 
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redline customs

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Aug 25, 2016
171
northwest arkansas
Yes I understand it. Luckily I'm not hurting for this vehicle, I've got my 11 Silverado and my 13 frontier(work truck) that I can use, so I'm able to take my time. Has been a bit of a pain trying to gather parts though. Had to have O'Reilly order in the seal, and they don't even have the tty bolt or the washer that goes on the back of the balancer. He looked at the balancer they sell, and it said requires x part# and y part#, but when he looked them up, they weren't anywhere in their system. I'll be calling AutoZone and Napa tomorrow, so hopefully one of them will have what I need.
 

redline customs

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northwest arkansas
Thanks for that. Looks like a trip to the dealer is in order. None of the local parts stores list those. Only thing online locations(gm parts direct, gm parts giant, etc.) With shipping on hold I really hope a service dept has them around.
 

mrrsm

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If you are going to attempt doing these these repairs while the Engine is still inside of the SUV... You are letting yourself in for The Biggest Repair Headache you can possibly imagine. But... if you insist and are that determined to do this work in this Thread...FWIW... and considering the need to reduce the risk of exposure to the COVID-19 Virus at their contaminated counter tops... RockAuto carries everything needed for the following Component Replacement Items ...and at MUCH better Prices:


Vehicle: 2005 GMC Envoy Atlas 4.2L LL8 Engine:

(1) Complete Timing Chain Set Replacement Kit (Recommend using the CLOYES Brand)
(2) Dorman After-market Front Timing Cover with Crankshaft Seal
(3) Melling Updated Replacement Gerotor Oil Pump Kit (Post 2002-2003)
(4) Melling Updated Oil Pick Up Tube and Orange Grommet (Trapped Fasteners included)

...and much more besides for the Atlas 4.2L Engine.

NOTE:

If you decide or need to either Replace or Remove the Cam Phaser or Intake Timing Sprockets, you'll need to use Brand New TTY Bolts. You can view these GM Fasteners and other OEM Parts for their Part Numbers at this link to my "Flickr-Bucket" available only from GM Dealerships:


You'll also need the ACDelco OEM High Temp Engine Sealant (2 Tubes and a Squeeze Gun) to apply in between the Crankcase-to-Engine Block and the Front Timing Cover-to-Crankcase-to the- Front Engine Block:

Available on Amazon:

ACDelco 10-2010 RTV Engine Sealant - 5.3 oz Cartridge ( 10 Minutes Working Time !!! )

 
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