What's the next step after Meguiar's M105 and M205

BanditGTP

Original poster
Member
Jan 2, 2013
89
Central NJ
I'm getting close to making some time to polish up my car. I've got a Porter Cable 7424 along with Meguiar's M105 and M205 polishes. I've seen in several different right ups that after using these, you should just get a good wax and apply that but then I've also seen people mention applying a sealer, glaze, wax, etc... I've never done this before but I would like to do this the right way. Does any one have suggestions or tips on exactly which product would be good to use?

Thanks
 
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xtitan1

Member
Jun 5, 2013
467
It all depends on how far you want to take it brother. I wouldn't approach a DD (daily driver) the same way as a show car / garage queen. The former is going to need a more durable protectant (perhaps at the expense of shine or glow) and you are going to have to live with some of the deeper scratches it will inevitably get (otherwise you'd end up polishing through the paint if you kept wet sanding the same spots over and over as the vehicle took damage over time). There are also really good bang for the buck products and then there are specialty concours quality products and boutique products that cost a lot more, but have a much lower incremental quality for the price.

Before you begin any compounding/polishing you want to thoroughly wash the vehicle using a soap designed for cars. Car Wash Guide, Car Wash how to - easy steps to shampoo and dry your vehicle using paint-safe mitts and towels, plus sponges, the Grit Guard and

You then need to clay the vehicle to get bonded surface contaminants off of the paint. Auto detailing clay, detail clay bar, clay lubricant, Pinnacle Poly Clay, Wolfgang, auto detail clay, meguiar's detailing clay, auto clay bar

Only then do you start with compounding and polishing. Your polisher is a great polisher for you because it is almost impossible to "burn" paint with it. Burning paint is where you are going over the area and causing so much friction that the surface gets so hot it literally changes the chemical nature of the paint, thereby "burning" it. The PC is dual action, so it doesn't just rotate, but also oscillates, meaning it will not be going over the same area constantly, thereby reducing heat. It also uses momentum instead of direct drive, so put enough pressure on it and the pad will stop spinning, preventing you from grinding down on the paint and causing too much friction, which again, leads to burning. In fact, it's often recommended you put a little line on the side of the backer plate that faces you so you can tell whether it is still spinning or not. Dual Action Orbital Polisher Guide: how to remove swirls, scratches, & oxidation with an orbital buffer. Porter Cable 7424, foam pads, backing plate,

M105/205 is a great combo. Think of the 105 as coarse sandpaper and the 205 as fine sandpaper. Those are getting out the imperfections like swirls, maybe some light scratches or even RIDS (random individual deep scratches) by actually abrading the good paint down to the level of the bottom of the scratches so it is all even again. That way the scratches no longer have edges, and therefore are not catching the light differently and showing up to the naked eye.

Don't worry about a pre-wax glaze for now, it's basically to get off old wax and sometimes fill in remaining scratches, but since you are waxing the first time and are using compounds and polishes, it's not really necessary. It's definitely optional.

Here is a good chart to get it straight:
flowchart.jpg


Okay now as far as sealants and waxes, these are referred to as Last Step Products (LSPs), meaning they are the last product to be applied in the detailing process:
-Carnauba wax is derived from the carnauba plant via an expensive process. Carnauba wax is the old school, it is less durable (meaning it will come off sooner and will need to be reapplied sooner), but it tends to give a nicer "glow" or shine.
-Paint sealant is a synthetic product that uses polymers that actually bond to the paint of your vehicle. It is more durable (meaning it will survive more washes before needing to be reapplied) but it tends to not give as good a shine or glow. I keep saying "tends" here because this is a little subjective and also very, very dependent on the products in question.

To make it more confusing, sometimes when people say wax, they mean an LSP in general (either carnauba wax OR a paint sealant), and sometimes they specifically mean carnauba wax. You have to look at the context to tell.

Many people do what is called "layering". This is where they first put on a sealant, and then afterwords put a carnauba wax on top of that. This way the get the glow of the carnauba wax, but the extra protection and durability of the paint sealant.

It all depends how much you want to spend, how much time you have, and how good you want it to look. In my opinion for a DD, you should just put some Collinite #845 or #915 on and call it a day. Collinite is a carnauba wax, but it has the durability of some paint sealants. It's kind of like the best of both worlds. It's also a really good bang-for-the-buck option. #915 is a paste wax and is somewhat more durable, #845 is a liquid wax and supposedly has a little better glow. You definitely want to read up on how to apply this stuff (basically do one panel at a time, and put it on THIN, additional product just makes it harder to get buff off without enhancing the look at all). You will need some applicators and some good MF towels. Obviously I'm a fan of the info at autogeek.net and this is where I learned. Their forums are crazy good. Autopia is another one. I'm linking you to products on autogeek but better deals can be had if you look around.

Collinite Marque D’Elegance Carnauba Paste Wax #915, car wax, paste auto wax
Collinite Liquid Insulator Wax #845, liquid wax, heat-resistant wax, car wax


Collinite 845 at Advance Auto Parts - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum
Collinite #845: The Definitive How-To Guide For This Legendary Wax - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum

So to recap: wash, dry, clay, M105, M205, LSP (such as collinite)
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
I have the same gear, polish is in the box awaiting some time from me. :wootwoot: I haven't used the 105/205 but the PC is a great machine, key is in the pads. What pads do you have? Seems that the burgundy along with a MF cutting disc is also recommended.

What does the surface look like? You need to take one section and hit it with either a white or burgundy with the 205 and see what happens. If you need to cut further then go to the 105 but I'm going to use the 105 then 205, then some Natty's Blue wax. Just be sure to clay the surface first.

Mine is in drastic need of some love so I wish I could add more but haven't used the products yet.
 

xtitan1

Member
Jun 5, 2013
467
gmcman said:
I have the same gear, polish is in the box awaiting some time from me. :wootwoot: I haven't used the 105/205 but the PC is a great machine, key is in the pads. What pads do you have? Seems that the burgundy along with a MF cutting disc is also recommended.

What does the surface look like? You need to take one section and hit it with either a white or burgundy with the 205 and see what happens. If you need to cut further then go to the 105 but I'm going to use the 105 then 205, then some Natty's Blue wax. Just be sure to clay the surface first.

Mine is in drastic need of some love so I wish I could add more but haven't used the products yet.

Just realized gmcman that you're in Manasses. I went down there for a forum meetup at Autogeek.net. I went to the first one they did, but it was so successful that now I think those guys are doing them like every month and would be happy to do your car and show you how to do it at the same time. Just sign up on the forums and ask JSou (he's the main leader guy) for details.

Detailpalooza #3 featuring Autogeek ( Northern Virginia Detail Event / Meet )! - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum
 

BanditGTP

Original poster
Member
Jan 2, 2013
89
Central NJ
Thanks for the info. I'm going to look into the Collinite products to see where I can pick some up. After I finish with my DD and hopefully it comes out good, I'll have my wife's truck and my buddy's truck to do as well. The good thing is that from everything I've read, it almost impossible to mess up the paint with the Porter Cable and the M105 and M205 compounds so I'm feeling pretty confident. Hopefully the Collinite waxes will just seal the deal.

I'll try to get some before and after pics.

Thanks again
 

strat81

Member
Dec 29, 2011
399
I tried M105 and M205 as well as one of the consumer-counterparts, Ultimate Compound. I was thoroughly unimpressed. They're not bad products, but perhaps the internet hype distorted my expectations. Swirls and minor imperfections were reduced, but the claims of "paint like glass" were not observed. To get such results, the paint has to be blocked to remove the orange peel that GM so so thoughtfully included.

Anyway, for heavily swirled paint, UC and M105 have their place, but for more frequent use, I'll stick with M80. I follow that with Klasse AIO. When I had more time on my hands, I'd top AIO with Klasse Sealant Glaze and #16.

Don't chase your tail with a daily driver. Dings, rock chips, deep scratches, etc. will not be cured with detailing products.

Get off the pot and choose a product. Don't dwell on cosmetics for your last step product because 99% of people can't tell the difference. Read more about what's easy to apply, within your budget, and durable. Sorry, I'm not paying $50 or $100 for some wonder-wax, especially when PREP is what makes the difference, not the LSP.

I *love* how easy it is to apply Klasse products with a 7424. No staining means I don't have to worry about taping or avoiding gray plastic, glass, rubber, etc. It doesn't smell like raspberry, vanilla, or unicorn farts though.

Durability is relative and you should manage your expectations accordingly. I judge durability based on water beading and AIO holds up very well, certainly better than #16 all by itself.
 

xtitan1

Member
Jun 5, 2013
467
strat81 said:
I tried M105 and M205 as well as one of the consumer-counterparts, Ultimate Compound. I was thoroughly unimpressed. They're not bad products, but perhaps the internet hype distorted my expectations. Swirls and minor imperfections were reduced, but the claims of "paint like glass" were not observed. To get such results, the paint has to be blocked to remove the orange peel that GM so so thoughtfully included.

M105 and M205 aren't meant for orange peel. I think you're expecting them to do something they aren't designed for. Orange peel is going to require at least a wool pad, possibly even wet sanding. For swirls, if you aren't getting drastic enough results, you need to go with a more aggressive pad, slower arm speed, and more section passes. I personally think that those products are a little prone to dusting and hard to wipe off, but not being able to get swirls out is not one of their drawbacks.

Anyway, for heavily swirled paint, UC and M105 have their place, but for more frequent use, I'll stick with M80.

You should never be frequently using M105 on the same car. Compounding is for cars that were not previously well maintained, or getting out inadvertent damage to the paint. It shouldn't be for regular maintenance detailing.

I follow that with Klasse AIO. When I had more time on my hands, I'd top AIO with Klasse Sealant Glaze and #16.

What's the point of using an all-in-one if you're doing 3 other steps?? Between the M80, the sealant glaze, and the #16, what exactly is Klasse AIO doing that wasn't already being done? The point of an AIO is just to do it, well, all in one step.

Don't chase your tail with a daily driver. Dings, rock chips, deep scratches, etc. will not be cured with detailing products.

Correct. Dings would require paintless dent removal (autobody), rock chips and deep scratches would be a touch-up paint process. But especially if you do the touch-up paint stuff yourself, it's not IMHO too OCD to do on a DD.


Get off the pot and choose a product. Don't dwell on cosmetics for your last step product because 99% of people can't tell the difference. Read more about what's easy to apply, within your budget, and durable. Sorry, I'm not paying $50 or $100 for some wonder-wax, especially when PREP is what makes the difference, not the LSP.

The whole point of doing this IS cosmetics. Last step products make a HUGE difference. And collinite is not a wonder-wax, it was developed in 1936 and does no advertising whatsoever, and people still buy it. It's also only $15.


I *love* how easy it is to apply Klasse products with a 7424. No staining means I don't have to worry about taping or avoiding gray plastic, glass, rubber, etc. It doesn't smell like raspberry, vanilla, or unicorn farts though

Now, no staining is one hell of a good characteristic. @BanditGTP, when using M105 or M205 with a PC, yes it would be very hard to burn the paint, but very easy to get a whole bunch of white crap on all of your black trim and weatherstripping. Once it's on there, it's nearly impossible to get it off. So watch out for that either by taping that stuff off, or being very, very careful near the edges.


Durability is relative and you should manage your expectations accordingly. I judge durability based on water beading and AIO holds up very well, certainly better than #16 all by itself.

I was thinking of getting Meguiar's Black Wax for an AIO, but I have heard such good things about Klasse AIO that maybe I will go that route instead. I need something to do friend and family cars where they are just looking for a modest improvement and protection for their DDs as opposed to a show car finish. That way I can take a lot less time with it by just applying the one product.





Comments in bold
 

strat81

Member
Dec 29, 2011
399
Klasse Sealant Glaze is designed to adhere only to AIO. I've tried using SG as a stand-alone, and it becomes a mess with tons of streaks and generally poor results.

AIO is a chemical polish, not an abrasive polish. Its job is not to remove swirls but to remove oxidation. It then leaves behind a protective layer of acrylic sealant. It also won't remove embedded contaminants that a clay bar would remove. Think of AIO as a heavy-duty cleaner wax (sealant). FWIW, AIO is another product that is often misused because people expect it to be an abrasive polish or swirl remover when it is anything but.

My expectations for M105, M205 and UC were inflated and like I said, to get paint like glass, the paint has to be blocked (i.e., wet sanded with a sanding block). I'm well aware that frequent compounding is not recommended, hence my comment about M80.

You missed my point about cosmetics within the context of a LSP. Use any LSP you want, but if you did not prep correctly, it won't look good. Similarly, if you've done thorough prep, almost any LSP will look good. Stressing out over Collinite vs. P21S vs. #16 vs. Souveran vs. NXT vs. Gold Class will drive a casual detailer crazy. Pick one. In my experience, AIO with a single coat of SG is great for seasonal application and will generally do pretty well to survive the winter (application in late October, re-application in mid-April).
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
xtitan1 said:
Just realized gmcman that you're in Manasses. I went down there for a forum meetup at Autogeek.net. I went to the first one they did, but it was so successful that now I think those guys are doing them like every month and would be happy to do your car and show you how to do it at the same time. Just sign up on the forums and ask JSou (he's the main leader guy) for details.

Detailpalooza #3 featuring Autogeek ( Northern Virginia Detail Event / Meet )! - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum

Vey cool, thanks. I will check it out.
 

xtitan1

Member
Jun 5, 2013
467
strat81 said:
Klasse Sealant Glaze is designed to adhere only to AIO. I've tried using SG as a stand-alone, and it becomes a mess with tons of streaks and generally poor results.

AIO is a chemical polish, not an abrasive polish. Its job is not to remove swirls but to remove oxidation. It then leaves behind a protective layer of acrylic sealant. It also won't remove embedded contaminants that a clay bar would remove. Think of AIO as a heavy-duty cleaner wax (sealant). FWIW, AIO is another product that is often misused because people expect it to be an abrasive polish or swirl remover when it is anything but.

My expectations for M105, M205 and UC were inflated and like I said, to get paint like glass, the paint has to be blocked (i.e., wet sanded with a sanding block). I'm well aware that frequent compounding is not recommended, hence my comment about M80.

You missed my point about cosmetics within the context of a LSP. Use any LSP you want, but if you did not prep correctly, it won't look good. Similarly, if you've done thorough prep, almost any LSP will look good. Stressing out over Collinite vs. P21S vs. #16 vs. Souveran vs. NXT vs. Gold Class will drive a casual detailer crazy. Pick one. In my experience, AIO with a single coat of SG is great for seasonal application and will generally do pretty well to survive the winter (application in late October, re-application in mid-April).

Oh okay, definitely agree with that last part about poor prep ruining the look no matter what LSP.

I used the Meguiar's black wax at a meet, and that product DID seem to remove some light swirls with a polisher. Maybe I'm one of those people who had unreal expectations for Klasse AIO (I've never actually used it myself). From what you're saying it sounds like it's for a car that already has good condition paint, and just needs a good wash and cleaning before applying another sealant like SG and/or wax, or possibly even just being left with the AIO on it.

Is the twice a year application even with frequent washings? That's pretty damn good.

I'm thinking, then, if it's for cars that could use some correction but aren't worth the compound/polish/wax process, that something like Black Wax would be the way to go. That way I can just do one and done, or maybe if I feel like it, put some additional carnauba on at the end.
 

strat81

Member
Dec 29, 2011
399
I've never used Black Wax so I can't speak to how well it works. After disappointment with NXT Wax, M105, M205, and UC, I'm soured on using the latest stuff. Lord knows I don't need more detailing supplies, and I'm pretty happy with what I have already. That shouldn't be taken as a bash against Meguiar's, as I am generally pleased with their products. It's more of a shot at internet posters proclaiming that "The New Stuff is easy to apply, removes all the swirls, protects for 24 months, and improves gas mileage!"

AIO holds up well assuming you wash every 4-6 weeks, which usually how long it takes for the tire gloss to completely disappear. The gloss obviously disappears, but beading still occurs. If I can manage a cool day in late July, I may reapply, or even toss on a pure wax like #16 or S100. I've actually noticed that washing less is better for the paint as even with a two bucket system with grit guards, washing is what swirls the paint.

Correct, AIO is not for a vehicle with 100k miles fresh off the used car lot as it does pretty much nothing for swirls. It does not require to be topped with anything. Topping it can help improve durability against bugs, bird bombs, etc.

I find myself reaching for carnauba wax less and less. The longevity just isn't there compared to a synthetic sealant. While I could possibly be convinced that on the right car in the right color in the right light, a fresh application carnauba might look a little better (or, more accurately, a little different) than a sealant, the difference vanishes after a day or two of normal use as dirt, pollen, dust, and road grime start to accumulate.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
I have the AIO and I actually found that it requires more effort to remove if I screw up a little, and using Intensive polish/Final polish or just Final polish if the surface is decent yields better results. The 105 may require a more aggressive pad, I was recommended to try a microfiber cutting pad if I cannot remove what I need with the burgundy pad...we shall see.
 

strat81

Member
Dec 29, 2011
399
This thread inspired me to break out the M105 again... for my headlights.

I have a 2001 Honda CR-V that's had headlight oxidation issues for the past five or so years. I bought the Meguiar's kit at Walmart and it worked well, but they only included a small bottle of Plastx with it. So, I used up the last of the M105 I have and the results were killer. The yellow haze is gone and I have nice, clear headlights lenses again. I did one side with M105 and the other with Ultimate Compound and there's no discernible difference between the two. Topped them off with some Plexus.

I used the same wool pad from the original chucked in a corded drill. If you do this, be sure to mask off any surrounding paint and trim as you do not want the edge of a high speed wool pad loaded with compound being pushed into your paint.

Interestingly, the headlights on my Rainier, now 9 years old, show no signs of yellowing or clouding. :cool:
 

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