Strut confusion.

[omek1972]

Hello GMTNation.

First post. I think? I have been lurking for a little bit reading as much as I can.
I recently purchased a 158k 2006 Envoy Denali 5.3 4wd.
Just replaced all the brake pads, rotors, and calipers. Not fun to get those back brackets off with hand tools.

Anywhoos,
I am getting the parts together to do a Spring conversion from Air ride.
I do not like the van ride and the leaky system.
I will also will be replacing the rear shocks and front struts.
I want to do a quick strut for convenience. And was having trouble finding anyone with anything in stock.
I know the popular idea is to go with the Bilstein HD and have a shop swap your coils for the fronts.

But if I do not go that route and put in a quick strut.
Does anybody have an budget quick strut they recommend?
I am low on funds and short on time for parts that are never in stock locally.

I had a set of Monroe 181341 Econo-Matic Complete Strut Assembly picked out.
But when I got to looking around at different websites, I was getting conflicting info on whether or not these fit my V8 Envoy Denali.
Summit racing and a few eBay dealers has this strut as only fitting the v6 Base Envoys.
Amazon had them listed as a fit.

Can anyone here confirm​ that the Monroe does NOT fit the V8?
I am also looking at a ​set of AC DELCO 903-015RS Professional Ready Strut.​
Ama​zon had this stuff ready to ship. Although a week or two out.

Also does anyone have info on what I do with the levelers to keep from getting a dash warning?

Thanks.​

 

[kickass audio]

I do not have a v8, I have the usual I6 engine but I cannot imagine how the v8 or i6 would play any role in the front suspension. I really think they are the exact same. The only difference I can think of is maybe the valving on the shocks to accommodate for the extra weight a v8 may have than the i6 but I doubt that exists.

as for the levelers, there are posts on here that you can search for and find what other members have done.

I myself love the ride improvement from the stock bilsteins to the bilstein HD's. My shocks were over 100k miles in and were really worn out but the stiffness of the new ones is something I enjoy. Some members don't like how stiff it can be but I like it myself.

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

I think the weight is within about 50 lbs so a non-issue

EDIT 5.3 is 11 lbs more

 

[Tiggerr]

I would stay away from the econo-matic line myself. If you go quick strut at least do the sensatrac. Or even the moog. Don't fall for the "conversion kit" either for the rear. Just get a set of springs for non airride TB/voy. Just get new shocks and the spring isolators. Way cheaper

If you look in the vendor section there should be a 5% discount for rockauto too. Sometimes they're better than amazon on prices. I always check both and use rockauto to get part #'s

 

[C-ya]

Welcome! I would avoid the cost of the quick strut and do it yourself. I did (thread here). It was much easier than I thought, and quicker, too. The rear swap should be pretty easy. Sorry I can't help with the air bag to spring and the leveler issue, but as said, a quick search should turn up what to do.

Shockwarehouse.com doesn't even ask for motor size.

Edit: When looking at the Monroe quick strut, it says excludes V8.

The rear shocks are easy. Top nut is captive so you don't need anything on the back. Here is my thread on rear shock replacement. http://gmtnation.com/forums/topic/8031-so-far-so-good-rear-shocks-in/?hl=%2Brear+%2Bshocks

 

[linneje]

If you want to use the quick strut method, if I recall my search on Monroe's website indicated that they do not make a quick strut for the 5.3 v8 extended. There is a quick strut for the vehicle on rockauto.com which is made by KYB, this is the way you could go.

I did the rear struts on my sons car my replacing the cartridge and reusing the spring, but I am telling you that if I ever do the front ones on my Envoy I would do the strut plus from KYB in a heartbeat. Way less hassle, especially if your tools are limited.

 

[Eric04]

Something else to consider if you buy from Amazon, look at the used offering out of their warehouse(will be listed right under the new item price). Oftentimes Amazon will have a large discount on items with damaged packaging there. Hard to damage a strut by dropping the box and if you're looking to save a few bucks it is an option.

 

[Daniel644]

personally not a fan of ANY of the shocks found in the quick strut setups, plus I lowered mine which was done with the drop shocks. if you have access to an air compressor and an impact (driven by the air compressor) and basic hand tools it's really quite easy to swap the shock and reuse the other parts just getting the loaner spring compressors from your local parts store, by the time you've gotten the assembly off the truck you've gotten past the hard part.

 

[linneje]

personally not a fan of ANY of the shocks found in the quick strut setups, plus I lowered mine which was done with the drop shocks. if you have access to an air compressor and an impact (driven by the air compressor) and basic hand tools it's really quite easy to swap the shock and reuse the other parts just getting the loaner spring compressors from your local parts store, by the time you've gotten the assembly off the truck you've gotten past the hard part.

I understand what you are saying, but it is not easy if you have never done this before as you can get killed by the spring force if you make a mistake. I took it on having never done it before because I had a friend supervise my first and a loaner of a safe spring compressor, but using the cheap ones you can set yourself up for a bad accident.

If you are off roading I agree with your strut choice, but if you are a daily driver I can't see it killing the ride to use the KYB strut plus.

Roadie and others way smarter than me (and better mechanics) have warned against compressing the springs yourself with no experience. If you have experience, than no doubt it is cheaper.

 

[Daniel644]

I understand what you are saying, but it is not easy if you have never done this before as you can get killed by the spring force if you make a mistake. I took it on having never done it before because I had a friend supervise my first and a loaner of a safe spring compressor, but using the cheap ones you can set yourself up for a bad accident.

If you are off roading I agree with your strut choice, but if you are a daily driver I can't see it killing the ride to use the KYB strut plus.

Roadie and others way smarter than me (and better mechanics) have warned against compressing the springs yourself with no experience. If you have experience, than no doubt it is cheaper.

The trailblazer fronts where my 3rd time doing it myself, the first 2 where with some of the crappy ones that looked like this

and on the second time using them they slid around and pinched my hand between the 2 units, I didn't touch spring compressors again for nearly a decade, but for the Trailblazer I got ones like this

and it went much easier and far more stable feeling.

 

[kickass audio]

I will admit that the first and only time so far that I had to swap springs from my OEM struts to the aftermarket bilsteins I was terrified of having the spring let go on me. I did it alone at home so if something did go wrong, I was basically screwed unless a neighbor heard it (they ignore a lot of crap because they don't care most of the time). I had used a compressor like in daniel's second pic that I loaned from advance auto. I had found though that with that compressor, the little locking tab (the silver part you see on the opposite part of the clamp jaws) had a part where there was a lip to help keep it on the spring should it back off or snap. We have thicker springs than most shocks out there so I couldn't just push the locking tab out to get it to brace the spring. I instead had removed the little pull rings from the tabs, removed the tabs and inserted them from the inside of where the clamp jaws are and then reattached the pull rings to them and it worked perfectly. You don't really have to use those tabs but I would absolutely advise you do as it helps prevent the parts from exploding outward should the bolt snap from the strut. I also did a big thing that is not recommended and I used my impact gun on the compressors. I had oiled the crap out of the bolt so it wouldn't bind up and I had used my impact gun for 2 seconds on each compressor until I had it compressed enough to unscrew the strut mount from the shock.

Also note, when I did the compression and decompression of the springs. I had them set on the ground like you see in Daniel's pic and I was on the side of the spring (NOT the top or bottom of the spring) so that would help minimize my risk of getting hurt should the spring or spring compressors let go on me. It would just make it want to shoot to the left and right and not as likely to go sideways and kill me.

If you want to have an excuse for a road trip, come up to WNY and I would be happy to help you with the spring compressor. We can rent it from the auto store like I did and you can pay me back in 2 dozen krispy kreme doughnuts as we don't have them in buffalo anymore.

 

[Mooseman]

The trailblazer fronts where my 3rd time doing it myself, the first 2 where with some of the crappy ones that looked like this

and on the second time using them they slid around and pinched my hand between the 2 units, I didn't touch spring compressors again for nearly a decade, but for the Trailblazer I got ones like this

and it went much easier and far more stable feeling.

I have a set of those first ones and I have had no issues with them in three uses with the TB and Saab. The second pair do look good though.

Now these ARE cheap ones that failed me on a POS Neon

The nuts at the end would strip and the single hook at the other end would slide.

 

[omek1972]

Crap. Had a huge thank you thread all typed out. I somehow clicked a "HAHA" you lost everything button.

Anywhoos,
Thanks for all the info and suggestions folks. I was surprised at all the replies.
More than I can say for other forums I have been on.
Kickass, thanks for the offer. I think I can handle the job now with the coaxing from all of you.
If it works out great I will send you a box of Krispy Kremes. Deal?

Going to give the spring compressor strut swap a shot.
Will go with the Bilsteins on the front. And if the rear Monroes do not work out I will get the Bilstein for the back as well.
I am still hemming and hawing on time and money in my head.
I will be buying my own set of compressors just in case I decide I want to go with a small lift later on.

I did already buy a set of Moog rear coil springs to replace the Air springs.
Along with 4 coil seats. Although it looks like I only needed two, or even none, for the tops.
Also got a set of Monroe Sensa -Trac load adjusting shocks for the rear.
I know these might be a bit stiff. But I prefer a pickup truck type of ride.
I think this setup will get me close and allow me to put some weight in the back.
I do a lot of hauling a lot of DIY building materials around.

I will take pictures and let everyone know how it goes.
Warning: I will be picking all of your brains if I cannot find a suitable link to satisfy my rambling.

Thanks again.
Patrick

 

[kickass audio]

I can only chime in and suggest that you just rent the tool from your local auto parts store. I myself will never be doing a lot of struts (I only did it once so far on my envoy, never on anything else yet) so buying it would be pointless for my needs. Plus the downside to buying it is if you should have it break on you, you're boned and out that money but if you rent the tool and it breaks, take it back to the store you rented it from and tell them that it broke while you were using it and not eat the cost of it (at least that's what the guys at advance auto told me when i had rented the spring compressors from them for the day. I would double check with your local store to make sure that policy is the same).

Honestly from what I have heard is that the bilsteins have a stiffer ride quality than that of the sensatrac's. I have a weird setup, I have Z71 springs in the rear because of the 1000lbs of weight from my sound system and I have the stock size bilstein HD shocks in the rear since my back end is loaded down so much the shocks cannot over extend and bottom out. My biggest difference I noticed was first of all the little bit extra lift (2 inches almost) in the rear from getting rid of my saggy OEM springs to put new Z71 springs from a tahoe in there and the other difference was the bounciness of the rear end when hitting a bump because my rear shocks were toast. The front's were not too bad though but were certainly aging and I figured to do them all in the same month.

For your hauling, how much weight on average do you think you will be hauling? The biggest recommendation is to get Z71 springs on the rear end if you have a huge load and the back end is sagging down because the stock envoy springs are not all that strong and make the back end dip down so you have a reverse rake in the truck. Here is a link to the same springs and the same guy I bought them from in 2013: http://www.ebay.com/itm/07-11-TAHOE-COIL-SPRINGS-NEW-OEM-SUBURBAN-YUKON-/161567014882?hash=item259e24ffe2

The biggest thing to note is if you toss Z71 springs in the truck and have stock shocks, you MUST have it loaded down with weight or you will overextend the shocks in the rear and blow them out eventually. The other thing is if you get Z71 springs and shocks that fit the tahoe (I don't remember the part number off hand but there are topics on here about that) as the shock is a bit taller however still works on our trucks just the same and it would prevent the hyper extension of the shock to top it out.

 

[omek1972]

Grrr! Back again. Guess I have to do all the cross referencing when ordering parts off Amazon.
I am going to say what everyone else said who was new to messing with their TB's, etc.
I wish I had done ALL the research to get my part numbers all in order. And not let the shop "pros" insist on this or that part being correct.
Amazon has things listed as fitting. But their drop down menu does not ask RWD, 4WD, XL. EX, XUV, V8, Active, Constant, etc...

I received my set of rear coil springs I thought fit. But they may not. They are for the XL or XUV Envoy.
Am I able to use AC Delco 45H0385 on a Envoy Denali?
Would I just end up with a more of a stiff ride and a bit of a lift? A bit like having weaker Z71 perhaps?
My stock springs would have been 84's if it was without the air spring system.

I did manage to finally track down all the OEM part numbers and equivalent parts from other brands.
So when my front Strut parts get here, there will be no confusion . I hope...
If I can avoid returning the set I can get to work. Someone give me good news PUHLEEZE!
Or do I return them with another note on how Amazon needs to get their Automotive section in order?
It is nice they have stuff in stock. But not if I am wasting time returning stuff that is listed improperly.

 

[kickass audio]

The springs are the same for them all. The only difference between the SWB and LWB model is the length of the frame, fuel tank, driveshaft, etc. Small things like that. The difference you may see in part numbers on your OEM springs if the stickers are still on there is to compensate for the stiffness in the spring. For example if your left rear side is a bit lower than the right rear, they will install a bit stiffer of a spring on the left rear side to raise it even with the right.

When you bought the rear springs, did you get the rubber isolator that goes up between the spring and the frame of the truck? That's the only thing you'd really need that your truck doesn't have already.

 

[Mooseman]

The springs are the same for them all. The only difference between the SWB and LWB model is the length of the frame, fuel tank, driveshaft, etc. Small things like that.

You sure about that? What about weight? I certainly wouldn't put a LWB spring and a SWB truck.

 

[Daniel644]

The springs are the same for them all. The only difference between the SWB and LWB model is the length of the frame, fuel tank, driveshaft, etc. Small things like that. The difference you may see in part numbers on your OEM springs if the stickers are still on there is to compensate for the stiffness in the spring. For example if your left rear side is a bit lower than the right rear, they will install a bit stiffer of a spring on the left rear side to raise it even with the right.

When you bought the rear springs, did you get the rubber isolator that goes up between the spring and the frame of the truck? That's the only thing you'd really need that your truck doesn't have already.

You sure about that? What about weight? I certainly wouldn't put a LWB spring and a SWB truck.

I would think they would be a different spring because I know if you use the Belltech drop springs on the rear you're supposed to add a 1" spacer for the LWB models to get it to sit at the same height from what I've read.

 

[24v 4.2]

A have a 1" spacer if anybody needs one. I didn't end up using it.

 

[omek1972]

Kickass, Yes I did get the spring seats. I guess I only need them for the top side. I did buy 4.
Will return those if I end having to return the Rear coils that Amazon so kindly listed as a direct fit.
Also I am not lowering the Envoy. All I want to know is what would it effect if I put rear coils that are meant for the XL or XUV on the Non XL Envoy Denali?
I understand that different part numbers were meant for different rates and weight allowances.
What I am worried about is throwing off the geometry or allowed body roll to where the truck is dangerous to drive.
Is it Dangerous? Or is it only going to make the ride stiff and perhaps the back of the vehicle will be higher?
I am just trying to avoid returning this set and waiting for another to arrive. This is getting quite aggravating for such a simple task.
I found a thread on trailvoy where someone said one can use the LWB srpings on SWB and they are all interchangeable.
But can anyone confirm this? I do not see how this is much different than folks who are using the z71 springs for their lifted rigs. Minus some longer shocks to keep from topping out.

 

[Tiggerr]

Physically they are probably the same. The rate would probably be higher due to the weight of the LWB model. Can't see where it would be a huge difference or unsafe.

 

[omek1972]

Hi guys. Sorry no pictures. But I decided to tackle the Air Spring to Coil spring conversion today. I am stuck. I swore I was ready for this. I dropped the axle as far as it would go without removing sway bars and what not. Seems I am still a couple inches to small a gap to just rest the springs on the perches and jack the axle back up. Anything off the top of any of your heads that I am missing?
Removing the old air springs was a beast they both actually tore from the tops. I managed to get a good grip with the clips unlocked gave them a couple whacks with a hammer to break some of the rust loos then they turned right out.Thanks for any info ya'll. Heading to the store right now to get some spring compressors. Was hoping to avoid that.

 

[kickass audio]

What I did for my rear of the truck when I went with the z71 springs and bilstein HD shocks was this...

1.) Loosen up the one bolt that secures the parking brake cable to the frame of the truck. Also take the rear brake calipers and remove them and hang it off the frame with a bunjee cord or something else.
2.) Jack up the truck as high as I could (I had to do it 3 times because I didn't realize how much travel the spring has when it is decompressed. I had it up so high that the bumper was level with my chest)
3.) I placed a jackstand on each side of the frame right where the lower control arm bolts to the frame and then had to get a jack stand up underneath my trailer hitch area of the frame with some 4x4's to keep the truck from pivoting off the jack stands at the frame. I think that only happened because I have 1000 pounds of weight in the back of the truck from my sound system.
4.) With the jack stands in place. I loosened up the shocks and removed them completely
5.) With the shocks removed I lowered the jack from underneath the axle until it was bottomed out.
6.) From there I had used a larger pry bar to pry off the springs from the lower perch of the axle while my sisters boyfriend pulled the spring towards the side of the truck and it popped out. It was under pressure but nothing too much.
7.) To get the new z71 springs in, we did the exact opposite. We just pushed the top area of the spring up against the upper spring perches on the frame (make sure the rubber isolator is still in place on the perch if yours came with one at all, idk if the air systems have them or not). Then we had used the prybar to push up on the spring a little while he pulled it up on the perch and it snapped into place.
8.) We then jacked up the axle and installed the new shocks and bolted the parking brake cable to the frame and we were done.

What you may do but be careful with it is to disconnect the upper control arm for the axle and I think that will give you additional room to swing down and out of the way to clear the springs. I was about to get a spring compressor for the rears but we managed to make it work.

 

[omek1972]

Thanks KA. I went ahead and bought a set of the McPherson compressors. I only needed about 1 1/2". It worked out great. Charging camera and bolting the shocks in here in a few minutes. Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it. I am usually not this nervous. But working under a heavy vehicle will get my nerves up. Should be a lot easier next time. I will be picking the offroadTB guys brains when I decide I want to add a lift. I will have to save that for after the front end rebuild. I need to do the front axle disconnect. So I might as well do hubs, CV, and new bushings all around. Might be awhile.

 

[omek1972]

Done.

 

[kickass audio]

Looks good man. Only part of caution is with the springs on the shocks. It has been said and I would believe it that the mounting points of the rear shocks are weak and putting the shocks with springs on them can make it snap off.