SOMETHING Just blew...

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
jonbo2002 said:
lol you'd be $20 richer :thumbsup: thank you, my bad:crazy:

mine was able to pull my trailer up quite an incline on my property, but it struggled to get up there. that was mostly due to my highway tires that kept breaking loose in 4hi. now with my BFG rugged terrains I have no problems. I won't be drag racing a HD with a matching trailer but it is plenty capable!

Might do better in 4 lo as well on the property. The 2.7:1 tc will help put the power down without breaking loose.
 

CaptainXL

Member
Dec 4, 2011
2,445
HARDTRAILZ said:
Which of these two statements in your single post is bullshit? Cause they sure as hell can not both be true.

They are both true. And I can assure you there is no problem.

gmcman said:
If your trans temp is climbing from 210 to 230, then your factory cooler needs help. Just too much heat without an aux cooler.

You guys are a bunch of laughs.

You need to provide some evidence that towing at 230 isnt normal for the trans. Because all the evidence I have found is contrary to what some of you guys are telling others.
 

CaptainXL

Member
Dec 4, 2011
2,445
jonbo2002 said:
sounds like talking out both sides of your face is becomming your deal! you tried telling me off like I was a dumb ass for towing 60-65!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Not at all. I was performing an experiment for the betterment of the members. I already explained this in that thread. The reason I towed at 60 mph this time around was to see if I could see any dangerous transmission temps. Alas I did not. I normally drive at moderate speeds to reduce drivetrain wear and increase fuel mileage. The reason I recommended 50 mph is due to my research. Its a good combination of factors including fuel mileage, wear and control of the trailer. Many industry professionals also recommend 50 mph. But yeah if I catch you passing me in your trailer going 70 and swerving all over, I am gonna flip you off and use some foul language.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Wow... how stupid are you? Steady temp of 210 ranges from 210 to 230??? Look up steady and range. They can't both be true.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
CaptainXL said:
Not at all. I was performing an experiment for the betterment of the members. I already explained this in that thread. The reason I towed at 60 mph this time around was to see if I could see any dangerous transmission temps. Alas I did not. I normally drive at moderate speeds to reduce drivetrain wear and increase fuel mileage. The reason I recommended 50 mph is due to my research. Its a good combination of factors including fuel mileage, wear and control of the trailer. Many industry professionals also recommend 50 mph.

In reality, you are full of shit and got called on it.
 

CaptainXL

Member
Dec 4, 2011
2,445
HARDTRAILZ said:
Wow... how stupid are you? Steady temp of 210 ranges from 210 to 230??? Look up steady and range. They can't both be true.

HARDTRAILZ said:
In reality, you are full of shit and got called on it.

Why are you callingme stupid? I never called youa name? Resorting to personal attacks mean you cant find any valid reason to honestly disagree with me. Frankly, I expected more from a person of your dedication to this forum. I am just gonna have to ignore you from now on you pompous ass.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
I
CaptainXL said:
Why are you callingme stupid? I never called youa name? Resorting to personal attacks mean you cant find any valid reason to honestly disagree with me. Frankly, I expected more from a person of your dedication to this forum. I am just gonna have to ignore you from now on you pompus ass.

Because you are misleading members.

Steady and range...not the same.

Don't tow over 50....I was towing at 60. You got busted.

You said two trans coolers are not needed then turn around and tell the op to run both. Wtf?

Then you toss out some BS and try to excuse your ignorance away. I don't have respect for you at all. I have not for a awhile. You toss your opinions out as facts. I try to ignore you but it is hard when you do as you do.

Man up. Admit you made mistakes or someone else is correct. Quit acting like a lil kid busted for fibbing and making excuses. Or ignore me but don't toss your BS around and expect me not to show your true colors.


Its not pompous...its experience and I share what I have done. Torn into a bunch of trucks on this site and have members call for advice all the time. I not only post but help other members in the real life. 6 hr round trip on a Tuesday work night to swap springs to replace airbags cause a member was in need...done. host a dozen members building their trucks at mine and a neighbor's garage for 3 day wrenchfest...done.

Its not cocky if you back it up.
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
..............

:popcorn:
 

DenaliHD66

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
597
So what you guys are saying that bypassing the factory cooler is bad, in particular in the case of cold climate. So the fluid coming from the tranny should run through the factory cooler first, and then go through the external one and then circulate back into the tranny? Since I don't have a Scangauge, do tranny temps log into the computer, i.e. if I pull out the codes, will it show what temp the transmission has been running?
 

TangoBravo

Member
Dec 5, 2011
208
DenaliHD66 said:
So what you guys are saying that bypassing the factory cooler is bad, in particular in the case of cold climate. So the fluid coming from the tranny should run through the factory cooler first, and then go through the external one and then circulate back into the tranny? Since I don't have a Scangauge, do tranny temps log into the computer, i.e. if I pull out the codes, will it show what temp the transmission has been running?

Denali what kind of cold temps are you talkin about? I am kind of an expert in this field?
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
DenaliHD66 said:
So what you guys are saying that bypassing the factory cooler is bad, in particular in the case of cold climate. So the fluid coming from the tranny should run through the factory cooler first, and then go through the external one and then circulate back into the tranny? Since I don't have a Scangauge, do tranny temps log into the computer, i.e. if I pull out the codes, will it show what temp the transmission has been running?

The temps will not be logged. You would need a gauge to see them.
 

jonbo2002

Member
Sep 27, 2012
213
DenaliHD66 said:
So what you guys are saying that bypassing the factory cooler is bad, in particular in the case of cold climate. So the fluid coming from the tranny should run through the factory cooler first, and then go through the external one and then circulate back into the tranny? Since I don't have a Scangauge, do tranny temps log into the computer, i.e. if I pull out the codes, will it show what temp the transmission has been running?

and Trailz didn't say it was bad, he said he dosen't know of anyone doing it this way before so you would be, pun intended, the "Trailblazer" for this. I would take his advice and get scanguage, watch your temps, log them and get back with us on your findings.:thumbsup:

on another note I have always thought of this place as an area for fellow owners to help others, with "EXPERIENCE" not the opinions that what you say is always right and everyone else is a dumb ass for doing something different then you. I have admited to being wrong many times on here and asked questions when I wasn't sure on things. I have 11 year in auto salvage and have worked with all makes and models but admit I don't know everything. I do all my work to my own cars and when I don't know I work till I figure it out or ask for help from my friends or stepdad. too many people have gotten cocky these days and these internet warriors try and talk like they know it all and when they get caught try back stepping instead of admitting their wrong. more people need to grow up these days. oh and for the record I never said I drive 70 with my 30 footer I said 60-65 thanks all my rant is over lol :hissyfit::raspberry::thumbsup:
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
DenaliHD66 said:
So what you guys are saying that bypassing the factory cooler is bad, in particular in the case of cold climate. So the fluid coming from the tranny should run through the factory cooler first, and then go through the external one and then circulate back into the tranny? Since I don't have a Scangauge, do tranny temps log into the computer, i.e. if I pull out the codes, will it show what temp the transmission has been running?


gmcman said:
However, the factory cooler shouldn't be bypassed in your situation. Use the aftermarket cooler AFTER the factory coolef. The factory cooler serves two purposes......quick warm-up and cooling.


Sorry, but yes, the factory cooler will help when it's very cold to get the temps up to normal and not let them get too hot but an aftermarket cooler used AFTER the factory will aid when stressing the trans.

CaptainXL said:
You guys are a bunch of laughs.

You need to provide some evidence that towing at 230 isnt normal for the trans. Because all the evidence I have found is contrary to what some of you guys are telling others.

Where are you retrieving your trans temp data from? The ECM?

You can run your trans at 230 deg, if it was a major issue then the ECM would let you know of an overheat situation. Should you continue to run it at that temp? Likely not.

Providing you are pulling your trans temp from the ECM, note this is from the sensor in the pan, after the fluid has returned from the cooler and mixed a little with what's falling out of the valve body and any more residual fluid but primarily what's being returned to the pan.

If I had an ideal trans temp setup it would be a sensor leaving the trans and one returning to note how well the cooling system is doing.

There are many written articles on if you are towing frequently, with heavy loads, that an aftermarket cooler is a necessity.

You are chugging 6K lbs up hills likely not in converter lock and your trans temps are hovering around 230 deg, after being cooled. An aux cooler would be a great add on.

Based on the chart I posted, a 20 deg drop will double the life of the trans in those situations, so it's a big deal for sure.
 

CaptainXL

Member
Dec 4, 2011
2,445
gmcman said:
Based on the chart I posted, a 20 deg drop will double the life of the trans in those situations, so it's a big deal for sure.

No, its not a big deal. The charts indicates fluid life, not transmission life. GM has stated as much.Based on this data the transmission fluid should last anywhere from 30, 000 - 50, 000 miles which is right in line with the factory service drain intervals for severe service.

What we have here is a little miscommunication issue.
 

STLtrailbSS

Member
Dec 4, 2011
1,617
Anyway you put it heat is the enemy, anytime you can keep temps cooler is not a bad thing if you keep them within the "sweet spot" not running your fluids to cold which is pretty hard to do with the summer winters we have. Excessive Heat and fluid deprivation are issues I never want in my engine. An AUX cooler can not hurt anything unless you have extreme winters like said before where you are not going to reach temp. Or you don't know how to install and cause harm with a fluid leak. Other than those 2 arguments there is none. People may not prefer a cooler but it does not hurt.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
CaptainXL said:
No, its not a big deal. The charts indicates fluid life, not transmission life. GM has stated as much.Based on this data the transmission fluid should last anywhere from 30, 000 - 50, 000 miles which is right in line with the factory service drain intervals for severe service.

What we have here is a little miscommunication issue.
View attachment 15715


The chart is NOT about fluid life. You are pulling shit out of your ass. It says TRANSMISSION FAILURE...not fluid life. The only miscommunication is on your end.

It only takes overheating a transmission once to fuck it up actually. Been there, done that.

STLtrailbSS said:
Anyway you put it heat is the enemy, anytime you can keep temps cooler is not a bad thing if you keep them within the "sweet spot" not running your fluids to cold which is pretty hard to do with the summer winters we have. Excessive Heat and fluid deprivation are issues I never want in my engine. An AUX cooler can not hurt anything unless you have extreme winters like said before where you are not going to reach temp. Or you don't know how to install and cause harm with a fluid leak. Other than those 2 arguments there is none. People may not prefer a cooler but it does not hurt.

Or you can get an aux cooler with the bypass so it does not even do anything if temps are not up to where they need to be.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
CaptainXL said:
No, its not a big deal. The charts indicates fluid life, not transmission life. GM has stated as much.Based on this data the transmission fluid should last anywhere from 30, 000 - 50, 000 miles which is right in line with the factory service drain intervals for severe service.

What we have here is a little miscommunication issue.

Automatic Transmission Fluid Temperature
"Automatic transmission fluid (ATF) has a life of about 100,000 miles at 175oF. At high temperatures, it oxidizes, turns from red to brown and exhibits a burnt smell. In addition to reducing the oil’s lubricating quality, high temperature produces a varnish on internal parts interfering with the operation of the transmission. Above 250oF., rubber seals harden, leading to pressure loss and leaks. Also, the transmission can slip. In the worst cases, clutches fail and costly repairs result.

ATF manufacturers suggest that for every 20oF. increase in operating temperature above 175oF., the life of the fluid is cut in half. Hence at 195oF., oil life will be about 50,000 miles. Above 240oF., it becomes nil."


Would seem when you hit the 230 degrees while towing you damn near killed your fluid and probably need to be changing it soon. I saw 235 in the mountains one trip and when I got home I had to change my fluid due to seeing and smelling it, brownish and burnt. That when I decided it was prudent to add some help to the factory system.




Adding an external ATF cooler.
"This is the most common and efficient way to gain additional cooling. Auxiliary coolers are heat exchangers that are readily available as they are often added to motorhomes and trucks used to tow trailers. Usually the cooler is added in front of the vehicle’s radiator. The transmission oil is routed to the new heat exchanger after leaving the factory installed cooler located in the radiator. It then returns to the transmission. A fan can be added to increase air flow through the exchanger, thus adding more cooling capacity."



With the temps you are seeing, I am not sure why you would not want one of these common and efficient sytems. The self regulating models such as Tru-Cool... "Tru-Cool" self regulating coolers - it's the oil that regulates the cooler. That is the principle behind the revolutionary new TRU-COOL SR series of self-regulating transmission oil coolers. Thicker oil that is below the ideal operating temperature bypasses the cooler through the upper two plates. When the temperature rises, it becomes thin enough to pass through the entire cooler and receive TRU-COOL's superior heat transfer efficiently, automatically. " are made for colder climates.
 

DenaliHD66

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
597
I think I'll be just fine. I really don't see tranny temp being an issue. I let the truck warm up for a couple minutes, then drive easy until engine is up to temperature. I can't see the transmission fluid temp being an issue because of this. I guess we shall see.
 

jonbo2002

Member
Sep 27, 2012
213
DenaliHD66 said:
I think I'll be just fine. I really don't see tranny temp being an issue. I let the truck warm up for a couple minutes, then drive easy until engine is up to temperature. I can't see the transmission fluid temp being an issue because of this. I guess we shall see.

the only problem I have with cold weather and the trans is on the real cold days my torque converter won't lock up for about 2 miles on the highway when I leave for work in the morning. So it's about 3-4 miles of total driving by that point. Thats at 25 and below though
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
jonbo2002 said:
the only problem I have with cold weather and the trans is on the real cold days my torque converter won't lock up for about 2 miles on the highway when I leave for work in the morning. So it's about 3-4 miles of total driving by that point. Thats at 25 and below though

Not abnormal though because it takes some time to warm up. I was surprised how much quicker the trans warms up on these trucks vs my old car with the same transmission series.
 

DenaliHD66

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
597
4l60e updates as per the Jasper tranny:


GM 4L60E / 4L65E / 4L70E
UPDATES from JASPER
3 Year/100,000 Mile
Nationwide
Parts & Labor Warranty
Remanufactured in the U.S.A.
Full warranty disclosure available upon request.
Specifications subject to change without notice.
815 Wernsing Road • P.O. Box 650 • Jasper, IN 47547-0650
(800) 827-7455 • Fax (812) 634-1820 • www.jasperengines.com
AD-E06-86-55344, Rev Date: 01/11/11 Page 1 of 1
Common Failure / Concern: JASPER Solution:
Slow pressure rise, slips under
heavy throttle, delayed reverse
engagement
• Install new pump boost valve and sleeve
Erratic pressure causing slipping
clutches
• Modified pump slide with spacer
3-4 clutch failure • Remove cage springs in 3-4 clutch and enlarge exhaust port in separator plate
Clutch failure or delayed
engagement
• Remove low/reverse check ball from rear of case
Soft lockup, no lockup and shift
complaints
• Ream and replace actuator feed Limit, TCC control valve and TCC regulator
valve
3-2 tie up, 3-4 clutch failure,
delayed reverse engagement
• Replace forward and reverse abuse bore plugs in valve body
Line pressure instability causing
harsh shifts or slipping clutches
• Ream and replace pressure regulator valve in pump
Clutch failure • High energy 3-4 clutch pack, increased from 6 lined and steels to 7 lined and
steels
Band failure • Installation of high energy 2-4 band
• Enlarge orifice in separator plate to increase 4th piston pressure to equal line
pressure
Reaction shaft wear and bushing
wear
• Installation of wide rear sungear bushing to increase support at contact load
area
Reverse clutch dragging in forward
gears
• Modify/verify exhaust hole for low/reverse clutch oil
Rear stator shaft bushing failure on
300mm converter
• Install a PTFE-coated rear stator support bushing
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
I figure this can clear a few things up, I spoke to my resource today (The Bull) and he just gave me the horns.

When GM sells us these vehicles, they don't know where they will end up. Could be Arizona, Montana, Michigan, Upstate NY, Maine, Canada.....who knows. The factory cooler is there to provide normal driving under most circumstances.

The ones who live in extreme cold climates, Michigan, Minnesota, North of Pennsylvania....etc where winters are 10 deg or colder for along time, or sub-zero conditions for extended times, the factory cooler will provide ideal conditions for the trans fluid and to help keep it from gelling, sometimes a warmer is added.

Now when you start towing, and we're talking 2500 lbs or more, especially over 3500 LBS, an aftermarket cooler is a must. Heat is the number one killer of a trans and this is mainly from breaking down the fluid, robbing the seals and bushings of their additives, allowing them to become brittle and leak. Once they start taking a crap then you are on borrowed time. Think of how many seals, O-rings, bushings are in the trans, when they start leaking you lose pressure, when you lose pressure the clutches begin to slip and fail.

Keeping the fluid at 150 would be perfect but hard to do, 175 is a happy medium. When you approach 200 or more, especially north of 225, then you need another cooler and the heat won't destroy the trans right away, but will shorten it's life dramatically. He said if his fluid is at 200 then it needs addressing, short intervals is ok but prolonged there's a cooling issue.

He also stated then in the warmer areas, where we see 30 deg winters and that is not prolonged 30 deg, then bypassing the factory cooler and using a larger aftermarket cooler is better. No need to keep it in the 180+ deg water at the bottom of the radiator since the hot inlet is at the bottom and the cold is at the top where the cooler should have been located.

Towing 6000 lbs is what the trans is rated at hence the 4L60E title and this is with all the cooling you can provide. The trans is just not designed to pull this weight with a stock cooler since there is no way you can pull steep hills in converter lockup. Also having a PWM TCC this makes it even more difficult and raises the temp of the fluid.
 

DenaliHD66

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
597
Ok so the problem in cold though, is that tranny fluid gels? I understand now. So without running through the radiator, the tranny is not warming up at all when the truck is idling on a cold startup?
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
DenaliHD66 said:
Ok so the problem in cold though, is that tranny fluid gels? I understand now. So without running through the radiator, the tranny is not warming up at all when the truck is idling on a cold startup?

He said you cant run the trans too cold, very hard to get fluid a constant 130 deg...almost impossible. The problems are the very very cold areas, sub zero, all the time and i doubt Michigan sees this on extended periods. If you have morings and days. where you are in the single digits then maybe keeping the stock cooler connected is good...depends on what temps you run. Either way, a large aftermarket cooler is a must.

I dont know what temps the trans fluid becomes a issue when cold.....but its very cold.
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
Trans is still warming up because the pump is running. Just not as quick.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Also the radiator isnt really warming up until the stat opens....maybe just a small amount until that time. The torque converter will warm the fluid.
 

Playsinsnow

Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
gmcman said:
He said you cant run the trans too cold, very hard to get fluid a constant 130 deg...almost impossible. The problems are the very very cold areas, sub zero, all the time and i doubt Michigan sees this on extended periods. If you have morings and days. where you are in the single digits then maybe keeping the stock cooler connected is good...depends on what temps you run. Either way, a large aftermarket cooler is a must.

I dont know what temps the trans fluid becomes a issue when cold.....but its very cold.

Any advice when MN, WY, or MT see highs in the single digits, below zero? Seriously like a week straight where the high will top out at -5F? It happens in MN at least every other year at minimum. Oh does she ever sound different on those days. Have a controlled garage now but there are others who don't I'm sure and when I travel West I don't always have the luxury of heated parking. TIA
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Mine came stock with a block heater, but I have never had reason to use it. Thought I read somewhere it was standard in ones sold up north and in Canada.
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
Mine was originally sold in NY and has no block heater. maybe not north enough.
 

Playsinsnow

Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
HARDTRAILZ said:
Mine came stock with a block heater, but I have never had reason to use it. Thought I read somewhere it was standard in ones sold up north and in Canada.

I spent a long time looking for a pouch or coiled up cord near battery. I gave up after a night of drthinking when I concluded that there was only one way to really keep everything "warm" and only one thing you should worry about (F&R Diff fluid, TC fluid, disconnect grease/housing etc.) and that is to park it inside. Even at 40F in a garage, it gets COLD before it warms initially, air temp subzero, and you can hear and feel it.

If anyone has a block heater cord they do not need PM me with what you would want for it? :biggrin:
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
gmcman said:
Up in those parts i would probably change a few hoses and reconnect the factory cooler during winter, if the cold posed an issue.

Heres an option, a non-mechanical cold bypass incorporated in the cooler. After this thread I believe I'm going to pick one up.

transmissioncoolers.us: Tru-cool thin coolers

Same one I mentioned earlier in this thread. Seemed lik a pretty good idea and a little investigation showed theat most plate style coolers function similarly. I personally have a tube n fin style, but can see the benefit of a change if I were to move someplace cooler.
 

DenaliHD66

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
597
Soo all I have to do is drive it hard enough immediately after startup on frigid days and lock up the torque converter and the fluid will be warmed. Case closed.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
DenaliHD66 said:
Soo all I have to do is drive it hard enough immediately after startup on frigid days and lock up the torque converter and the fluid will be warmed.

You don't really need to worry about anything unless you're towing. :biggrin:
 

DenaliHD66

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
597
So this transmission has been outstanding. The driveshaft needs a bit of adjustment, there is a pretty significant clunk when putting it into gear, and sometimes in between shifts when you give it throttle you can feel a clunk. But man, this baby shifts so quickly while retaining a factory feel to it. It downshifts super fast the instant it needs the extra acceleration. So pleased with it, really hope it turns out to be a great investment. Wide open throttle there is no grinding or whining noise.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Try taking the driveshaft out and greasing the splines in the tailshaft. I just put a dab on my finger and coat all the splines about an inch or so down.
 

DenaliHD66

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
597
gmcman said:
Try taking the driveshaft out and greasing the splines in the tailshaft. I just put a dab on my finger and coat all the splines about an inch or so down.

Inspection Tuesday, already in the plan.
 

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