Rough idle and knocking noise from bottom of motor

Discussion in 'Engine & Drivetrain' started by holytornado84, Oct 12, 2016.

  1. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    I checked some fuses. Ign fuses and crank. Don't really know what all fuses to check but I'm fixing to go back out and see if I can find anymore that might be the culprit.
     
  2. Mooseman

    Mooseman Moderator

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    Check to see if power is getting to them.
     
  3. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    Well that makes sense. I've just been checking the condition of the fuses. I'll hit them up with my test light. Do you know offhand which fuses I might need to check?
     
  4. Mooseman

    Mooseman Moderator

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    I'd check all that are relevant. PCM, IGN, starter relay, etc.
     
  5. Mike w

    Mike w Well-Known Member

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    I started a motor without the transmission in before the purple wire will engage the starter if you jump 12 volts to it with a decent size jumper wire
     
  6. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    So did you have the same problem that I did with no fire at the starter fuse relay?
     
  7. Mike w

    Mike w Well-Known Member

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    I bought a crashed TB that had no cluster no fuses and just a lot of missing things the only way I was able to start the motor was to jump power to the purple wire. The motor would run with just the ignition fuse in
     
  8. Mike w

    Mike w Well-Known Member

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  9. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    I just tested all of the fuses and relays that I thought might need checked. The only one I really found that didn't light my tester was the fuse terminal #25 (btsi). I could not get it to light in run or crank. From searching around I found it is the Brake Transmission Shift Interlock fuse. I believe this is the reason why I can't shift out of park at all. Does anyone know which circuit is responsible for sending this fuse power?
     
  10. Mooseman

    Mooseman Moderator

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    Here's the schematic. It's fed by the backup light fuse and then the Park/Neutral switch.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. MRRSM

    MRRSM Gold Supporter

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    Within @Mooseman ‘s PDF… the image of the involved circuit might be pointing at an Inoperative Park Lock Solenoid that will refuse to allow the Shifter Handle to move ...if it is Dead. But for the sake of Extreme Danger… Please DO NOT DISASSEMBLE AND BYPASS THIS FEDERALLY MANDATED SAFETY DEVICE. IF AN ACCIDENT WERE TO HAPPEN ...YOUR LIABILITY WOULD BE ENDLESS AND IT MIGHT INVALIDATE YOUR VEHICLE INSURANCE POLICY.

    This is an image from God Knows Where but was once offered up by one of our own: “The Roadie”

    PARKLOCKSWITCHFROMTHEROADIE.jpeg

    There are Two Torx screws that are accessible through the Shift Lever Opening Via the top view. Once the Fasteners are removed, turn the Park Lock Solenoid to one side and pull it out through the opening on the right hand side. Perform the replacement in reverse after installing the new Park-Lock Solenoid.

    As for the Fuses in this Circuit... #25 and #27 are involved:

    upload_2016-11-14_18-36-31.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
  12. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    I checked the back up fuse (27) and it is getting power. So, the back up fuse is getting power but the BTSI fuse is not. I am starting to think that my problem is not really a problem and just a product of not having the harnesses connected. I am going to go ahead and try to jump fire to the starter and see if the vehicle will start and run and then take video of it.
     
  13. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    I got it to start. I let the starter stay engaged for too long on the first try, then started it one more time. It will not stay running for some reason, but it does start. I can't really hear the knock but the engine is only running for about a second so it's hard to tell. I do notice that the plate looks a little wobbly when it turns the first time but, that could just be the camera on my Iphone.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
  14. MRRSM

    MRRSM Gold Supporter

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    Okay... This is a PERFECT Video for Diagnostic Purposes. I downloaded your video from Youtube and used VLC (Videolan) to Play the Video forwards at Time Slices of 1 Second of Time per 5 Second Slow Delay. I noticed even before you Jumped the Terminals on the Starter Motor that the Small Starter Gear and The Bendix Unit inside were almost completely OUT... and possibly wedged in between the the two sets of Teeth... perhaps due to a Bendix Failure. Also... Just as you did... I observed the Flex-Plate making a Very Slight Wobble at its ecliptic edge. Further, I noticed that the Starter Gear and Flex-Plate Ring Gear where throwing out High Speed Contact Sparks... and Last but not Least... I could hear an asymmetric ringing of the Flex-Plate immediately after Shutdown.

    However when that happened... The Starter Gear had either withdrawn inside of its cover dome....or it was being hidden from the Field of View of the Digital Camera focal plane because the Flex-Plate had stopped at a point where it was bent towards the transmission and obscuring the teeth of the Starter Gear. I took some Sequential "Time Lapse" Images as Screen Prints so you can view these at the right pace to visualize and understand the important 'Artefacts of Change' and draw your own conclusions.

    My money is STILL on a problem with the Flex-Plate... even if its cause and origin is The Starter Motor having a "Lazy Bendix" as the "Start" of the problem. I would definitely consider changing out BOTH. But there are better minds available here than mine... so lets see what everyone else thinks before you tear into anything. I'd just to say that I admire you BOTH for having the patience to persevere against something that really is ...Quite Maddening. If ever anyone needed proof as to why these Videos are indispensable in such cases to better understand what is really happening ... All I can say is "Wow..." (Or Dare I Say, "Holy Tornado!") ;>):
    Screenshot from 2016-11-15 00-03-55.jpeg Screenshot from 2016-11-15 00-07-10.jpeg Screenshot from 2016-11-15 00-07-21.jpeg Screenshot from 2016-11-15 00-07-59.jpeg Screenshot from 2016-11-15 00-08-57.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2016
  15. Mike w

    Mike w Well-Known Member

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    I wonder why the engine would not stay running? Is the the theft light coming on? I had the same issue where the starter sounded like it was eating the teeth, keep in mind that the flexplate will be a lot more unstable without the torque converter bolted to it also if you unbolt the gear selector switch from the transmission you can plug it into the harness and the truck should start then. I been following your progress just been working alot.
     
  16. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the amount of help and effort you and other members have been supporting me with. This is literally my first transmission R&R I have ever performed. Even though it has been a long process because of the limited amount of knowledge that I obtain myself, in any of the areas I've been working in, it actually has been quite pleasant when having help like the members on this forum to work with and also having the right jack to make the transmission pull a lot easier than I had imagined.

    I didn't even examine the video frame by frame like u have. I just jumped to uploading it fearing that everyone on this site would be calling it a night soon. When I jumped the terminals in the video the first time you hear the starter engage again and cause sparks because I had not pulled the wire from out of the 30 terminal yet. Before I had reinstalled the starter the other day, I was messing around with the pinion gear (pulling it with my fingers to see how far it extended and retracted) and I think I left it extended out when I installed it. That could be why the gear looks to be engaged before I tried to start the motor the first time in the video.

    I think I'm going to go back frame by frame and look at the video now and see if I can see the same thing you're talking about.
     
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  17. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Mike! I'll see if I can get the switch off the transmission and plugged in so that I don't have to jump the terminals anymore.

    I did notice something. The only terminal for the fuel pump relay that has any power is the one that turns on when the key is turned to run, and then cuts power after a couple of seconds. Is there supposed to be a terminal on the fuel pump relay that has constant power in run? Does anyone know the fuel pump relay wiring diagram? I am starting to think that the fuel pump is only supplying enough fuel to start the engine. If so, should I get a spray canister like Mike W did and supply the intake with a feed of fuel so that I can keep it running long enough to inspect the plate?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2016
  18. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    I was examining the pictures of the torque converter bolt holes earlier and I noticed that one of them is either worn a lil or has some residual loctite left behind. Here are the pictures of the bolt holes and the bolts. IMG_1919.JPG IMG_1918.JPG

    IMG_1887.JPG IMG_1886.JPG IMG_1885.JPG
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2016
  19. MRRSM

    MRRSM Gold Supporter

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    Those TC Bolts do not look bad... But I would be very interested though in viewing images to find out if there are any indications of the Three TC Holes in the Flex-Plate showing signs of either "0valing Out" or indications of loose contact and impact wear from one or many of those bolts being loosened... and yet feel snug upon removal due to the presence of the Lok-Tite inside their Mount Blocks concealing a problem.

    Once again... Besides asking "The Lil' Woman" if the Gas Tank was topped off just before the problems developed... Watching Drew (@MAY03LT) discuss the majority of your questions about "How to Test the Fuel Pump Circuits" will help... but this work is best accomplished after a Good Night's Sleep and afterwards... when you are rested and your mind is ready... tackling anything he mentions will be a lot easier to do:



    Please check on the Main Page in The Articles section for the "Sticky" provided by @Mooseman concerning "Where to Get Manuals" and follow the Bouncing Ball to the FTP Site and grab the Manuals for your vehicle they will be a better ready source of information to add to your growing Mechanical Lexicon.

    And by the way... the Guys who chip in here from time to time on subjects they feel grounded in... all were ...at one time or another... Standing in YOUR Shoes... and helping you solve all these problems helps them sleep better at night as well. So down the road... whenever you run across somebody in Dire Need of Your Help... Wild Horses won't hold you back... and besides...

    "So Shines a Good Deed... Upon a Weary World..."
     
  20. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    I think mainly what I need to focus on is getting the vehicle to actually run for more than a second and then we will be able to tell a lot more about the flexplate before I actually pull it. If we can get a good 10 seconds or more of listening to the flexplate area while the engine is going, we will definitely be able to determine whether the knock is still present. Just have to figure out what component is causing the engine to quit. I will jack the transmission back up in there (without reconnecting the mounting hardware) and attach the harnesses back just so we can run the engine if I have to.
     
  21. Mike w

    Mike w Well-Known Member

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    They do have yellow loctite on them from the factory mine had it as well I used it when I reinstalled the torque converter bolts, as for the circuit for the fuel pump that the prime for the fuel pump when the key is tuned to run that curcuit does that for the prime stage it's normal when the key is turned to start and the engine starts then the power should be constant. Be sure your security light is not on for some reason that pass lock junk will cause the power to the fuel pump to be cut after a few seconds if the pass lock is tripped
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2016
  22. MRRSM

    MRRSM Gold Supporter

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    If you can... Get your hands on one of these Nifty Items as it is a Helluva lot easier to use this device that fiddling around the Fuse Box when you really want to be watching from a safe position down there:



    PTREMOTESTARTER.jpg
     
  23. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    The middle picture on the images of the torque converter is the one that is in question as far as whether it is worn or just loctite left in the hole.

    I just placed my iPhone on a sliding platform and left it underneath the vehicle to record while I jumped the terminals at the fuse box. That isn't a bad idea though!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2016
    Mike w likes this.
  24. Mike w

    Mike w Well-Known Member

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    That looks like the loctite get it out the hole and burn it if it melts it's loctite.
     
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  25. MRRSM

    MRRSM Gold Supporter

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  26. HARDTRAILZ

    HARDTRAILZ Moderator

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    See if it tastes like loctite
     
    Mike w likes this.
  27. Mike w

    Mike w Well-Known Member

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    That's an msds for super glue from loctite not the thread locking compound they actually recommend using heat to easily remove the bolts that have been treated.
     
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  28. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    Well after carefully removing (make sure not to turn or twist the switch while removing it off of the transmission gear stalk) and plugging the wire harness to the PNP switch back in, the ignition worked and I got it started. The knock is no longer there and I figure the next step for me to take is to go ahead and pull the flywheel. I am uploading two different videos that I took during the process of starting it today.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
  29. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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  30. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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  31. MRRSM

    MRRSM Gold Supporter

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    Okay... I just want to begin by mentioning that if you are admitting to having a limited amount of experience in performing the complexities of the R&R of a 4L60E Transmission... you certainly managed to Climb the Steep Learning Curve and gain experience very quickly. After viewing ALL of your instinctively well-positioned and well documented videos... your entire post will soon become a Benchmark for this repair in the Pantheon of Difficult Repairs for the GMT360 Truck Line Series here at GMT Nation. So I offer some HUGE Props to YOU, Brother!

    You have been following the process of narrowing down the problem to its essentials just about as good as it can be done... and from what I have seen so far after you started the engine and the PCM settled the idle down... I cannot detect anything threatening to the Internal Rotating Assembly and the absence of any Rod Knock or Bad Crankshaft Knock is a BIG blessing. You should breath a sigh of relief at having dodged all those problems.

    I was not so much watching your engine during the two Runs as much as I was focusing on how stable the edges of the Flex-Plate were and what the two Transmission Cooler Lines were doing... because observing them allows you to see any extraneous shaking and vibration that would be a strong indicator of problems inside the engine. Since both of them hardly moved a bit, even with their Leverage Length Advantage at being so far away from any source of vibration... they would certainly have been gyrating around violently if anything untoward were going on inside of the engine during the two Run-Ups that would have been "Shaking like a Chihuahau Sh*tting a Peach Pit".

    Even though the Flywheel showed some signs of odd contact between the Pinion gear and the Fire-Hardened Ring Gear... the softer being the smaller gear for obvious reasons... there was nothing significant in the way of any "chewed up teeth". However... without getting a better look at the Starter Motor and actually running a Bench Test of what the Bendix Unit and the Small Pinion would do when powered by a Fresh Bench Truck Battery for anything that "jumps out" at you for signs of Tooth Damage and excessive play inside the shaft bushing in the cup end... there is no way to be certain.

    The views you provided will draw some very large attention as time passes for anyone wanting to see such uncommonly good and relevant views of how all of these mechanical sub-assemblies dynamically behave. The "ONUS" for the cause and origin of this noisy problem I mentioned further back as possible next place thankfully moves aft into the Torque Converter...and while the following video is not an exact replication of the sounds being produced by your first video...(play that one next and then the last two in sequence a few times) When you play THIS one ... you will hear some similarities... noting that there was no doubt in that VOP's mind that the Torque Converter of his identical 4L60E Transmission had gone sideways and needed to be R&Red, regardless of the Make and Model of the vehicle:



    I'm a bit superstitious and not as reluctant to throw a 'wider repair net' around these events as many other mechanics would be and so more than likely, many others will disagree with my suggestion that Changing The Starter, The Rear Crankshaft Seal, The Flex-Plate AND The Torque Converter all while conducting what remains of this job just makes perfect sense because of the difficulties ANY or ALL of these units present if you have to repeat this difficult exercise soon after finishing a "Diminimus Repair".

    Like General George Patton once said,"I never want have to fight to claim the same Battleground ...TWICE." And so if ALL of these components get R&R'd... NONE of them can become suspect anytime soon after that if each of them is replaced with an OEM Part and caution, thoughtfulness to the details in the manual for R&R instructions and observing these procedures with a Hawk's Eye follows on from there. I Sincerely Salute Your Superb Work!
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
  32. MRRSM

    MRRSM Gold Supporter

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    If I may suggest... skip trying to have any Machine Shop examine something that may still be destined to fail catastrophically even if they somehow manage to unkink it... and instead... purchase a Brand New OEM one from here:

    https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=12576272&rh=i:aps,k:12576272

    This video from RealFixesRealFast demonstrates how problematic these things can become...even when they are Brand New...However...unfortunately... The only "flavor" offered for this repair is the one Amazon carries and I took some images just now of one that I am about to install on a a Donor Motor on my Engine Stand involved in a current SWAP. Please notice how bowed out the center of your Flex-Plate is when compared with the OEM images I posted below:



    DSC07649.jpeg DSC07648.jpeg
    DSC07651.jpeg DSC07652.jpeg
     

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    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
  33. Mooseman

    Mooseman Moderator

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    Having just dealt with my TB's tranny shitting the bed, I re-listened to your first video and mine did almost the same noise but not as regular as yours and only when in gear and my reverse would just grind. Did you drop the pan on your tranny? I'd do that and look for telltale signs of failure with shiny metal pieces or flakes in the pan. Could also be the torque converter, tranny oil pump or front bearing.
     
  34. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    8 images below after flex plate removed: flex plate mounting surface and rear crankshaft/main seal exposed IMG_1929.JPG IMG_1930.JPG IMG_1931.JPG IMG_1932.JPG IMG_1933.JPG IMG_1934.JPG IMG_1935.JPG IMG_1936.JPG 3 images below: torque converter mounting holes on the flexplate IMG_1940.JPG IMG_1941.JPG IMG_1942.JPG 3 images below: crankshaft mounting holes in the center of the flexplate IMG_1937.JPG IMG_1938.JPG IMG_1939.JPG
     
  35. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    I fear I may have bad news. This morning I took the flexplate to the local transmission shop. They just looked at it and stated that it was indeed a good plate. They quoted me $100 dollars to tear into the transmission and see what was wrong.

    Ever since lastnight something has been telling me to mount the exhaust back up and give it another go. So after leaving the tranny shop, I installed the exhaust and the flexplate back in and cranked it up again. It ran perfect with no knock for around 20 seconds and once it idled down the knock came back. I took video and then turned off the car. I Waited a bit, cranked it back up (while taking another video) and the knock still persisted even before it had a chance to idle down.

    It's hard to not think that it is a spun rod bearing or a wrist pin causing the knock, but I have performed the coil check by unplugging each coil one at a time and verifying the knock was still present. Maybe there is a high amount of carbon build up causing preignition that's providing fire to the combustion chamber. Anyways, I am uploading the two videos that I took so that they can be referenced.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
  36. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks MRRSM for the compliments. I was hoping that I didn't sound like I completely had no experience in mechanics. Your posts are rich and full of details to the point where I can't confuse or mistake anything that you are explaining. I enjoy reading them whenever you post.

    I have been focusing on the aspect of helping others behind me when a similar problem may arise. That's why I have been trying to document as much as possible and include as much information as possible. I am descent with a wrench. I just have no experience in R&R of a transmission or a motor. I've always wanted to try though. I get a lot of my information on tear down and diagnosing problems from the internet (namely google).

    I already have other threads on gmtnation where I have fixed my front axle disconnect (which was a stubborn SOB to deal with) and some electrical issues as well. There were several members at gmtnation that stuck in there with me on those threads as well like you and others have been doing which is one of the reasons why the issues have gotten resolved somewhat quickly. (2 brains > 1 brain)
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
  37. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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  38. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    I think I'm going to perform this test next. Probably should've already.

     
  39. holytornado84

    holytornado84 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I performed the test. Several times on each cylinder. I was not able to reproduce a knock using the screwdriver method. I think I'm going to take the oil filter off tomorrow and see what the oil looks like.
     
  40. Sparky

    Sparky Moderator

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    This is outside my expertise. Good luck man, I'm watching still because I'm curious!
     

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