horrible mpg and weird idle drop

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
OK well here's another log with highway driving I did notice the ltft see
ms to always be pulling fuel away while idling maybe that's is a big factor in the bad mpg could a vacuum leak cause this?

I'm going to change the oil, clean the cpas, and flush then brake fluid today so let's see if that helps with a clean cpas
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Going back on this thread, there needs to be a different approach on this issue. I'm going on what has been stated so far on the steps taken so if you have done other things you can update me.

Originally you had real bad MPG's, in the single digits and now you are somewhere between 10 and 12 city correct? Now this is stop and go NYC traffic so 12 isn't that bad, however based on the posts, you haven't performed all the suggested steps in your diagnosis so it's a little hard to try to figure this out without all the data.

Compression test was done dry only and not dry then wet, but the compression when dry builded slowly. Slow build could be the gauge not fully seating or worn rings, this is why the follow up wet test is critical, you cannot omit this step.

You haven't reported a vacuum test reading, this is also key. You can pull the forward facing locking hose on the TB and use that port, or if the capped port facing the pass side in the front of the intake draws vacuum, that's a good one also.

Backpressure test, granted you changed your cat a backpressure test before the cat was changed and after, would tell if you have a restriction further down the exhaust. These resonators can clog up with their own internal media and cause a restriction. It doesn't take much restriction to really bog down the engine, I'm talking 3 PSI is alot on this motor and the OE is roughly 0-.5, when you get above 3 PSI on your setup then things start to get interesting.

You could easily have a shop with a Tech 2 let you know if all the components like the fan clutch, CPAS, fuel injector duty cycle, fuel trims are within a normal range but I know this is $$$.

Which leads me to another area which is the fan clutch. When I replaced my fan clutch it made a noticeable difference. If your's is acting up, like engaging when cold and on cold startups, loud jet engine sound or just not releasing which can be carefully checked by trying to stop the fan with a rag on the smooth edge. Granted only do this when the A/C is off and the coolant is below normal.

Also the fact your coolant temp is struggling to get to 185 is a concern. I would take it out on the highway at crusing speed for about 10 min after it warms and see if it ever gets to 195, looks like at one point it almost made 190 so there's hope but in traffic 175 to 185 is not good.

Let us know, but we need all the data.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Forgot....a fuel pressure test is also good and I think some members have had weird trim numbers from a bad fuel pressure regulator.
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
Going back on this thread, there needs to be a different approach on this issue. I'm going on what has been stated so far on the steps taken so if you have done other things you can update me.

So far since the first post I have
Changed the upstream o2, cat, Cpas, used the bg44k, cleaned out the resonator, and changed the battery(if it even matters)
------------------------------------------------------------

Originally you had real bad MPG's, in the single digits and now you are somewhere between 10 and 12 city correct? Now this is stop and go NYC traffic so 12 isn't that bad, however based on the posts, you haven't performed all the suggested steps in your diagnosis so it's a little hard to try to figure this out without all the data.

Well those mpg seem to be gone I have for two days been at 9 - 9.3 mpg today it was at 9mpg exactly after driving like a grandma doing 25 or under and coasting to stop signs I got to 9mpg and its 40° out here so not really cold, I then reset it and after driving around the same few blocks stop sign to stop sign where it stood at 8.9mpg it went to a little over 9 after yielding through the signs I got to almost 11mpg

also if I had a more consistent 12mpg i would be ok and I can understand with the winter blend too. But it seems to be lower most of the time
------------------------------------------------------------

Compression test was done dry only and not dry then wet, but the compression when dry builded slowly. Slow build could be the gauge not fully seating or worn rings, this is why the follow up wet test is critical, you cannot omit this step.

I know I should of did the test correctly and I'll see if I can maybe do it again but wouldn't worn rings cause performance problems? Or lots of smoke out the pcv?
------------------------------------------------------------

You haven't reported a vacuum test reading, this is also key. You can pull the forward facing locking hose on the TB and use that port, or if the capped port facing the pass side in the front of the intake draws vacuum, that's a good one also.

(I will see if I can do this as well it sucks they don't rent this tool)
------------------------------------------------------------

Backpressure test, granted you changed your cat a backpressure test before the cat was changed and after, would tell if you have a restriction further down the exhaust. These resonators can clog up with their own internal media and cause a restriction. It doesn't take much restriction to really bog down the engine, I'm talking 3 PSI is alot on this motor and the OE is roughly 0-.5, when you get above 3 PSI on your setup then things start to get interesting.

Once again I'll see if I can do this
------------------------------------------------------------

You could easily have a shop with a Tech 2 let you know if all the components like the fan clutch, CPAS, fuel injector duty cycle, fuel trims are within a normal range but I know this is $$$.

I think there was a video I saw, I think it was from may03lt that showed all the normal sensor reading from a tech2 I can compare mines to his
------------------------------------------------------------

Which leads me to another area which is the fan clutch. When I replaced my fan clutch it made a noticeable difference. If your's is acting up, like engaging when cold and on cold startups, loud jet engine sound or just not releasing which can be carefully checked by trying to stop the fan with a rag on the smooth edge. Granted only do this when the A/C is off and the coolant is below normal.

The fan clutch was changed before I got the vehicle, the fan has only kicked on once while on a cold start it never has sticked on while driving and when it was on from the cold start it disengaged when revving it. I never hear the fan on, only when revving the engine with the hood open I can see it spinning faster than at idle but my brothers 05 does the same. The fan never is stopped is it?
------------------------------------------------------------

Also the fact your coolant temp is struggling to get to 185 is a concern. I would take it out on the highway at crusing speed for about 10 min after it warms and see if it ever gets to 195, looks like at one point it almost made 190 so there's hope but in traffic 175 to 185 is not good.

I think i posted that it does get to 210 but only with more continuous driving such as high way or even stop and go but on certain stopping and driving it goes lower but only on colder days it seems to do it, I'll make another log
------------------------------------------------------------

Let us know, but we need all the data.


Also I'll post a list of what I can log and you tell me what to.

gmcman said:
Forgot....a fuel pressure test is also good and I think some members have had weird trim numbers from a bad fuel pressure regulator.
The 05's don't have a fuel pressure regulator I have a returnless fuel system
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Ok....I was going off your logs and not the gauge. If the log reads 170-185 then that's what the PCM is seeing. Remember the gauge is not a true linear reading like most temp gauges.
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
gmcman said:
Ok....I was going off your logs and not the gauge. If the log reads 170-185 then that's what the PCM is seeing. Remember the gauge is not a true linear reading like most temp gauges.
I edited my post so now it's shows what I wrote

Also when the gauge showed a tick or two under 210 it was reading 170-180 on the live data
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
BlazingTrails said:
FWIW I am getting a combined mileage of 15 and I have been able to get 22 hwy before. And at WOT i get 2.8 mpg lol
If I can get 12mpg consistently I'll be much happier, I known that's going to be hard to get in the winter but if I can get that in the summer then good

I test drive a 02 ltz recently and on the average mpg form the dic I got it to 12mpg with normal driving and flooring it a bit and that was with a small exhaust leak, possible brakes dragging since it felt like it was pulling a anchor and a bad cat that smelled horrible
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
OK I changed the oil and cleaned the cpas it wasn't to dirty, the oil was dark even thought

Also I cleaned the cam position sensor and it was actually dry with barley any oil on it the seal looked like it dried out, it also had a rough texture to it and it couldn't even pick up a bolt so I guess I'll be replacing that

But while doing all this I went to help my brother with his 05 tb and the clip from the tb flew into the intake so now we have to remove it
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
OK well after cleaning the Cpas and cps now I have a real bouncy idle with front and rear defroster on. It bounced up to 1k and pushed the car a little twice with them off iirc it's not bouncy
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
with calculating mpg I am a tick under 1/2 tank and I've drove 122 miles the range shows 80miles left iirc, giving me 202 miles just slightly under the predicted 210 when full. Also using the dic's fuel used readout I've used 9.3 gallons which dose not really add up to a tick under 1/2 tank but gives me 13.1 mpg. But if I use the fuel gauge I can calculate that I used 12 gallons and the dic is not correct, since i have a 21.7 gallon tank and there are 20 "ticks" on the gauge then 1.085 gallons times the estimated 12 gallons used gets me 10.2mpg

13 sounds petty good to me but idk if its right until I fill up, 10.2 is ok since I haven't exactly been driving super nice and just driving normally and it's winter.

also the temp has been hitting 210 and staying live data shows 189-198.

What gains can changing the cps have?
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
OK I'm going to get the vacuum gauge today what should I expect?
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
You have to take it easy on the gas if you want to try to figure out your normal mpg's. There's no way around that...if you hot dog it around your mpg's will tank hard, real hard. These platforms get dismal mileage as it is if you take it easy, 4.2 Liters of displacement will drink gas if you let it....this isn't a 1.8 Honda motor...lol.

You should hope to see a steady needle and at least 17 inches...which is a little low, hopefully 19 or more.
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
gmcman said:
You have to take it easy on the gas if you want to try to figure out your normal mpg's. There's no way around that...if you hot dog it around your mpg's will tank hard, real hard. These platforms get dismal mileage as it is if you take it easy, 4.2 Liters of displacement will drink gas if you let it....this isn't a 1.8 Honda motor...lol.

You should hope to see a steady needle and at least 17 inches...which is a little low, hopefully 19 or more.
I'm not flooring it at every light or what not I'm just driving normal not hyper milling either. But there are sometimes I have to give it some gas being that I am in nyc and no one stops for you, especially when entering the highway but I usually drive easy not driving to lights but coasting and staying around 25-30 and coasting on small blocks and 35-40 on big streets usually letting it cruise

Also I will check vacuum when I get home
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
OK well the car was off for a while and cold but it got a steady 21"
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
Yup I only noticed the slightest movement but I also heard the rpm change so other than that it was completely steady.

Also I tested on the tb port, where the evap would go
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Gerbil21 said:
Yup I only noticed the slightest movement but I also heard the rpm change so other than that it was completely steady.

Also I tested on the tb port, where the evap would go
The needle can vary readings up and down slightly, generally when the load changes but cannot shake or flutter/vibrate.

I would rev it up to about 2-3K and be sure it doesn't shake.
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
gmcman said:
The needle can vary readings up and down slightly, generally when the load changes but cannot shake or flutter/vibrate.

I would rev it up to about 2-3K and be sure it doesn't shake.
It barely moved and definitely did not shake or vibrate.

Also I'll check again tomorrow and Rev it
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
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May 28, 2014
839
OK well I will check that later since I removed the intake manifold today and am about to remove the valve cover.
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
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May 28, 2014
839
Ok well I'm going to reassemble everything tomorrow the intake was full of gummed up oil but under the valve cover it was nice and clean.
 

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Gerbil21

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.
 

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Gerbil21

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.
 

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Gerbil21

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they all ended up looking like the first one
 

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Gerbil21

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May 28, 2014
839
KNBlazer said:
How much oil does your truck consume?
None, I recently changed the oil, Took out a little more than 6 quarts but the dipstick was full. It was the same with my brothers 05 tb a little more than 6 quarts so I guess that all of it.

I have used Mopar ccc so maybe that is why the oil is gummed?
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Weren't you having a vacuum issue with your PCV system, did you get that fixed yet? Are you able to draw vacuum through the large port on top of the valve cover?
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
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May 28, 2014
839
gmcman said:
Weren't you having a vacuum issue with your PCV system, did you get that fixed yet? Are you able to draw vacuum through the large port on top of the valve cover?
I was not able to clean or remove the baffle for then pcv on the valve cover so idk if it will now draw vacuum. i did spray some cleaner in there also I'm going to clean up the intake today hopefully any restriction is there instead
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
I tested vacuum at the pcv port yesterday and it has none at first but then it builds up slowly but when removing the gauge it makes a whistling sound. I'll make a vid today
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
That's normal. ..the vacuum from that port is light but needs to be there. The whistling is the initial rush of air until the vacuum in the valvetrain settles back down.
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
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May 28, 2014
839
So then the port is working, that's good
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
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May 28, 2014
839
OK well I only got to 17.6 gallons according to the dic when the fuel light came on. I didn't get to fill up the tank but I will soon I'm getting close to empty again. I'm going to use some fuel cleaner this time. I'm going to use gumout multi system since I can get it now I would use redline but it has to get shipped and they have a deal for it.

I am definitely waiting for a fill up to see how many gallons get put in and compare it to when i fill up after the tank full.
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
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May 28, 2014
839
I know it's been a while since a update but I've filled up and reset everything only got 17 gallons in even when driving with the light on for a few miles in city traffic. I still have to check vacuum while revving, and get the resonator cut off or hollow it out since it sounds nice[emoji1] .

So far without touching avg mpg I got a true combined 9.8mpg which is where it has been sitting at for a while, with a ocasinal few miles of highway but mostly city, warm ups of 30seconds but still driving it nice while its warming up, no idling in park, 30sec max as well.

It only drooped to 9.7 today when idling while still warming up after a drive.

I think this is going to be the best mpg I can get

I can see improvements with
-easier driving but without a tune 1-2 shifts still prevent the smoothest driving,
-the tune I just spoke of since it claimed better mpg and it would give better acceleration which should result in less pedal press
-e fans
-exhaust back pressure check to rule out problems
-both resonator deletes
-replacing the cam sensor and actuator since the dorman actuator spins.
-replacing the gas cap (the seal looks old)
-buying one of those Chinese magnetic super turbo fuel atomizing fast burn mega mpg boosters
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
ok just an update i recently filled back up at $2 a gallon :crazy:

either way so far i have changed the cam sensor with a acdelco part and i noticed the magnet is really weak even with the new one, are the like that?

also i have replaced the cam actuator from a dorman to a GM and wow what a difference :smile: first mpg seems to be up a bit also it drives better shifts are smoother and it pulls better, and stronger also for anyone else reading this DONT BUY DORMAN not only did it break in a few months, it was also lighter, smaller than the real GM part.

but now i have a bit of a problem with my idle and driving
on some down shifts to first it has a bit of a bump and its down shifts kinda late but it only happened yesterday when i also noticed it idled at 1k in drive then it did it again except this time it started to drop the rpm down to 600 slowly then it happened again except it went from 600 to 1k at all times it makes no difference putting it into park or into first since it feels like im costing to a stop and its at 1k

also where dose the rpm suppose to go when coasting to a stop i have noticed it would stay around 1k or a bit higher even if i put it in neutral it still stays at the same rpm and would jump the rpm up as it downshifts.
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
ok well i thought the resonator wasn't that bad after we pulled most of the fiberglass out of it but i guess not, it does sound very nice with a good deep sound on start up and while driving especially when in parking lots or tunnels but i guess im going to have to remove it after all.

i was on the highway and had to get somewhere fast so i was giving it some push and i noticed rpm kind of stood at 3k then the resonator sounded like streamers on a fan or leafs flying away from a leaf blower. but after that mpg stated to go up from the struggling between 7.9 and 8mpg when starting the highway drive to 9.5 all the way up to 11mpg while still driving it a bit hard and doing 70. so i guess i have to say goodbye to the nice burble on start up and loose the can.

it is now at 10.9 with city driving and seems more or less like it wants to go up since red light idling dose not effect it and it drives a bit smoother
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
Ok well its been to long to just keep this thread dead so here is an update with logs

since the OP
So far I changed:
Front & rear diff fluid
T case fluid
Trans. Fluid flush, filter and both shift solenoids
Engine oil (with 10w-30 by accident lol)
Power steering pump & fluid
Air filter
Spark plugs (acdelco 41-103) & coil boots
Coolant and t stat
Upstream O2 sensor
All fluids were top brand synthetics

Since then:
oil change (with 5w-30 this time lol)
oem GM cpas
catalytic converter replaced with magnaflow weld on cat
trans-go shift kit W/ aluminum pinless pistons and corvette servo
intake ports cleaned
cam position sensor replaced with oem GM sensor
valve cover gasket changed (now i have nice blue grommets :crazy:)

so far i have been getting around 10mpg with mixed driving
i also get around 13mpg with mainly highway but this is nyc highway so there is no nice steady cruising

usually i get around 200 miles to the tank

so all around im still getiing bad mpg but so far there has been nothing that has left a clue or been there to help pinpoint any problem, there may not be any problem this just may be what i get. I would compare with my brothers 05 but its getting a new engine with 59K on it so until he gets it back which should be tomorrow then idk. he does have a dic cluster but no buttons so were going to have to wire them in to see fuel used and avg.mpg

one thing i have noticed is that the car seems to be slower on the highway, it acts like it dose not want to go idk if that's torque management but the other day it didn't do it and it felt great and it was back to doing its usual thing of increasing speed when pressing the pedal while not moving up in rpms much which is great but other days not so much.

either way here is a log i took yesterday its a pretty usual drive in traffic and a bit of highway also there was no parked idling just traffic
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16vaqCsmRHsKxxrMqDCG-t3_2TbYKI01uoPMgDPZBlyY/pubhtml
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
Well I just took a trip upstate and got 16mpg which is good considering I was going 85-90mph the whole way
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
Member
May 28, 2014
839
Finally took the resonator off it was broken at the connection on the back and the obvious hole on the side. It was completely rusted inside aswell. I also found out it is a aftermarket replacement, it's a quiet-flow 3

uploadfromtaptalk1428877583593.JPG
 

Gerbil21

Original poster
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May 28, 2014
839
uploadfromtaptalk1428878043711.JPG
 

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