Collapsed lifter.......

[New Envoy]

Well gang, heres the story.... The girlfriends Envoy Denali has had a slight lifter tap in the mornings for a while, but it always went away fairly quickly, so never thought much about it. She called me from work today saying it was way worse and never went away. She checked the oil once it cooled off and it was full. So I stopped by her work after my work to check it out. Oil was full, sounds like a lifter, should make it home (5 miles). While driving it home I noticed the CEL came on, so I scanned it once I got home. Misfires on CYL 1. Pull the valve cover off and the very first rocker arm is very loose, not touching the push rod at all. So, must be a collapsed lifter.

Come back inside, break the news to her, she wants to fix it. But, if we are going to fix it, we want it to be done right. The plan is to fix it and keep it for several more years. So we don't want to just bandaid it together and hope it works. So, my question is how and what do I need? Im thinking a head gasket set ( that should cover all the gaskets I will need?), all new lifters, new cam, oil change. But is there anything else im not thinking of? I did just order a service manual too. Planning on doing this this weekend. At this point Ill take any advise anybody has! LOL.

 

[C-ya]

Do you plan on keeping DOD? If not, get a DOD elimination kit and get a tune to disable it and any fault codes. Some members here have done that, but it didn't sound cheap. The other route would be to rebuild as-is (keeping the DOD components), but again, getting a tune ($100 from a member here - @limequat ) to disable DOD and hoping the system doesn't fail in any way until you are no longer the owner. You have a couple of options but money may determine your course.

Yes, you would need a head gasket set - which should include manifold gaskets. While you are in there, check and clean (if needed) the screen for the DOD system (under the oil pressure sensor). I would hold off on the cam until you get it apart unless you can't afford down time but can afford the cam. The lifters I would replace would only be the DOD lifters (cylinders 1, 4, 6, and 7). Some members have reported dealerships working on the system under warranty and only replacing the DOD lifters on the side that failed. I haven't heard of too many issues with the non-DOD lifters, but again, it's your nickel. There are other parts of the DOD system that may warrant replacement at that point, which may make DOD elimination more attractive.

Good luck with it whichever route you take.

 

[New Envoy]

I probably wont do the DOD delete but, will do either a tune or the AFM plug (range, I think its called?) Im trying to get all the parts together before I start. But there is just so much that is still unknown, its hard to figure and guess which parts to get.

 

[Mooseman]

I've done the DoD delete and it's not cheap but is actually cheaper than fixing the DoD since you would be using the cheaper non-DoD valve lifters. Cam has to be replaced because it likely got smacked by the bouncing dead lifter.

I was going to do a write-up but I just didn't have the time. From memory, here's the minimum parts that would be necessary no matter if deleting DoD or not:

• cam
• all lifters (updated, both DoD and non-DoD)
  
• one push rod and rocker (for the failed lifter)
• new updated VLOM (valve lifter oil manifold) (or 4.8L lifter valley cover without DoD which is much cheaper)
  
• head gasket
• intake manifold gaskets
• timing chain cover and water pump gasket
• exhaust manifold gaskets and bolts
  
• valve cover gaskets
• spark plugs

If you want to do a thorough job like I did, add these:

• all push rods and rockers
• new lifter trays
  
• valve stem seals
  
• timing chain set and new style tensioner
• oil pump (preventative as they are known to fail)
• oil pressure sensor (preventative as they are known to fail)

It's a big job, not for the faint of heart. Oil pump would be tricky and require a special procedure without removing the oil pan.

 

[Sparky]

You're already over halfway there doing a full DoD delete if you're going as far as you're talking, so might as well go all the way.

I've never heard the 5.3 having common oil pump failures... That's a new one to me.

 

[Mike534x]

check and clean (if needed) the screen for the DOD system (under the oil pressure sensor).

Oh wow, I wasn't even aware we had a screen under the oil sensor. Is it easy to remove/replace?

Here I am hoping I don't have a lifter repeat like on the TB anytime soon.

 

[mrrsm]

If it were just your own DD... then this article that covers the GM 4.8L Performance Gear would be of interest... The change of the Camshaft alone would be a huge improvement if you are intent on juicing things up... and you can use the Camshaft Profile information listed below for comparison to the one you might want to get:

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/en...-4-8l-vs-5-3l-engine-tech-little-ls-slugfest/

"In addition to the cam tested here, Crane Cams also offers Direct-Fit LS Cams for the truck motors designed to work with the stock valve springs. These Direct Fit LS cams give lots of options and offer significant power gains (as high as 40-plus hp) through the entire rev range (as low as 2,000 rpm) and do so without affecting idle vacuum, drive-ability or necessitating a spring swap-making them the perfect upgrade to an otherwise stock 4.8L or 5.3L."

 

[New Envoy]

If it were just your own DD... then this article that covers the GM 4.8L Performance Gear would be of interest... The change of the Camshaft alone would be a huge improvement if you are intent on juicing things up... and you can use the Camshaft Profile information listed below for comparison to the one you might want to get:

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/en...-4-8l-vs-5-3l-engine-tech-little-ls-slugfest/

"In addition to the cam tested here, Crane Cams also offers Direct-Fit LS Cams for the truck motors designed to work with the stock valve springs. These Direct Fit LS cams give lots of options and offer significant power gains (as high as 40-plus hp) through the entire rev range (as low as 2,000 rpm) and do so without affecting idle vacuum, drive-ability or necessitating a spring swap-making them the perfect upgrade to an otherwise stock 4.8L or 5.3L."

Well, still not sure what I'm going to do. Buy, starting to lean towards the DOD delete. I haven't really ran all the numbers yet but, you say it may actually be cheaper? Pretty sure I will need the same amount of parts, gaskets, bolts, can, lifters, timing chain, etc. But, if the non dod parts are cheaper, then I van justify it. Sounds like the only thing really extra will be the pcm tuning. And, IF that's the only real difference, then I will probably go that route. Anybody know if anybody makes a dod delete package? Just order everything all in one box at one time kinda thing?

 

[Mooseman]

There's this one:
https://www.texas-speed.com/p-717-dod-afm-delete-kit-for-536062-engines.aspx

But you should talk to them first because there are differences for different years and cam sensors as well as the cam chain gear (3 bolt vs. 1 bolt).

I got a lot of my info from this page:
http://lt1swap.com/afm_delete.htm

For the oil pump failure, I followed this info.
Sudden Loss Of Oil Pressure - 2007 Chevy Silverado Vortec 6.0L ...
It's apparently caused mostly by the relief valve sticking but can also be a failed pickup o-ring.

 

[Sparky]

Oh I've heard of the O ring issue, yeah. Not really a pump failure though.

 

[C-ya]

Oh wow, I wasn't even aware we had a screen under the oil sensor. Is it easy to remove/replace?

Yes, you just have to pull the oil sensor out. It is on the left rear of the motor, front being the front. (Old VW term when referencing stuff on a rear-engined vehicle.) If you watch Youtube videos, most of them are full-sized platforms that require you to remove some items (vacuum lines, fuel lines, etc.). NOTHING needs to be re/moved on the TB or Envoy. You'll get scraped up most likely, but it only takes a few minutes to get it out, clean the filter and put it all back together. I think the socket size is 1 1/16" / 27mm. Pull the connector out of the top of the sensor and hit it with the socket. I think I used a universal when I did mine (twice). Once you get the sensor out, if you have a pick, it will assist in getting the filter out. Be careful not to pierce or puncture it. You can see it at about the 9:00 minute mark in this video.

Clean it, replace it, whatever floats yer boat, but I bet it will be dirty. I just cleaned mine when I changed my sensor the second time. It was warrantied by AZ, but I bet it was only the dirty filter.

This video shows it on a transverse engine in a car, but it is actually in the same place on our engines. This is great to see what the connector looks like, where the sensor is, and the filter. He does damage his filter getting it out, but he is replacing it. You can get them out without damage - just don't push so hard with your pick. Go lightly sideways and start lifting.

I wanted to add that I was reading on a boat forum about this issue (oil pressure and collapsed lifters) and several GM techs were on the forum. Dirty oil was generally always the culprit, and even a particular brand was noted to be a major contributor (starts with a V).

 

[Mooseman]

Since he has an actual collapsed lifter, a teardown is required.

Best thing would be to send the PCM out for the tune while you have it apart. Get the fan codes tuned out too while you're at it and get an increase in performance to boot. Jeremy at lime-swap (@limequat here) is good and the cheapest one out there. Other places charge 3x more just because it's a V8 instead of an I6. $99 including shipping back to you.

Yeah, non-DoD parts are cheaper, even with the tune, especially the VLOM. The DoD VLOM was updated with better oil passages and solenoids, which apparently was one of the causes for the high oil consumption. Lifters were also updated according to that site I linked. It's just a troublesome system for a 5% fuel economy (yes, just 5%!)

 

[C-ya]

Since he has an actual collapsed lifter, a teardown is required.

Yep, I agree for @New Envoy , but I was responding to @Mike534x and his question about the screen. It is still good info for anyone with a DOD V8 to clean that screen periodically and keep up with oil changes.

I didn't realize the DOD elimination kit was as (relatively) inexpensive as it is. If I keep my truck around, which I generally do with vehicles and I kinda like this one, I may do that myself. Doing my own wrenching will save a bundle on overall cost vs. farming it out to a shop. And I'm already tuned for no DOD!

 

[Mooseman]

You do have to add the camshaft to that kit and get a timing chain set elsewhere. I also recommend the updated chain tensioner, which is relatively cheap, instead of the plastic block to help eliminate noises.

 

[C-ya]

I added a cam, which took it over $600, but still, not too bad all in all. Hence the use of "relatively". Their set looks to be lacking intake manifold, exhaust manifold, and water pump gaskets and a timing cover set with chain, too, which will add to the cost.

OK, now I'm talking myself out of it.

 

[New Envoy]

Well, from what I can see, I'll need all those parts anyway. I mean, lifters, gaskets, bolts, cam, and even the timing set probably wouldn't hurt to have a new one. So pretty sure I'll be talking to them and ordering this tonight. Couple questions I have though..... What is the three bolt or single bolt can? Which lifters should I use? Its just a daily driver, nothing fancy, not looking to build anything super. Just the stock lifters (that they are out of) or one step up to the HP (that they have).
And C-Ya, come on, you can do it. I think you should hurry up, get the set, do the DOD delete, then come show me how to do it!

 

[Mooseman]

I added a cam, which took it over $600, but still, not too bad all in all. Hence the use of "relatively". Their set looks to be lacking intake manifold, exhaust manifold, and water pump gaskets and a timing cover set with chain, too, which will add to the cost.

OK, now I'm talking myself out of it.

According to the picture, they do include the timing and water pump gaskets.

What is the three bolt or single bolt can? Which lifters should I use?

At some point, they switched from a 3 bolt to a single bolt cam gear retention (I believe 2007). According to that site I linked, if you get a 4.8L cam as indicated, you can keep the single bolt gear.

http://lt1swap.com/afm_delete.htm

GM PART# 12625437 is the stock camshaft used in the 4.8L engine that DID NOT come with AFM. This camshaft is a direct replacement for the 5.3L AFM cam when you want to do the AFM delete and use standard lifters. This cam will have a groove in the 2nd bearing journal that is used to supply oil for use in VVT (variable valve timing) that started in 2010. This cam works just fine in 07-09 WITHOUT VVT, as well as 10+ WITH VVT when deleting AFM from 5.3l engines. This cam will use the stock timing gear and bolt from the 5.3L as well. As of this writing, this cam is around $90.00 brand new from GM, you can also get it on Amazon, Summit Racing, so on. Most all GM parts are on Amazon or Summit Racing. I'm not sure how performance is affected using this cam on larger 6.0/6.2 engines. I would suggest using a factory LY6 camshaft used in 3/4T 6.0L truck applications 07-09.

Stock lifters are fine.

 

[C-ya]

If you're going to call them, ask them those questions. I would suspect the OE Delphi lifters (16) would be the best bet for a DD although I think their "Performance" lifters are nothing too out of the ordinary and wouldn't effect your driving. The advantage the Performance lifters seem to have is their availability.

ETA: @Mooseman , I do see the timing cover and water pump (? - haven't worked on one of these yet) gaskets now. Just glancing too fast.

 

[Mooseman]

And C-Ya, come on, you can do it. I think you should hurry up, get the set, do the DOD delete, then come show me how to do it!

If he disables the AFM/DOD, he won't need it if it's working correctly now. It's when V4 mode is activated, that collapses the lifters and if it's borked, will stay collapsed when V8 mode is activated, which is what happened to you.

 

[New Envoy]

Ya, I know. I was just trying to get some help on this. LOL

 

[New Envoy]

OK, all the parts are ordered. Well, almost all. Gotta get the exhaust gaskets separately. I will also get a new timing chain set. Which brings me to another question. Which set should I get? Now that I am changing what GM had on there originally, do I still use the same set? Or should I get something different?

 

[Mooseman]

I got a Cloyes brand. Good name brand. I haven't priced anything lately. If you want to go with ACDelco, that's your choice. Any good name brand will work.

BTW, order a new chain tensioner, part number 12626407. Apparently the first year they used these was in '07 and some had issues so may be worthwhile to replace with the newer one.

 

[New Envoy]

But, what Im asking though is, which timing set do I get? I mean I know its a 06 envoy denali but, with the new parts is that still what I should be asking for? Or do I need to ask for something else now? Is it still the same chain set?

 

[Mooseman]

If it's an '06 like mine, you have to get a camshaft for a '06 4.8L along with the same chain set and gears, which have 3 bolts.

For some reason, I thought yours was an '07

 

[New Envoy]

Well, I talked to Texas speed when I as ordering the parts, and they said I needed #28-12560967, so that's what I got. Now, on their web site it says it for 99-06 but for the 5.3. But, I seem to remember reading somewhere that the 4.8 and the 5.3 used the same cam? I think anyway. Been reading a lot in the past day or so and its all starting to run together.

And, since you have an 06, do you remember the part number of the chain set??

Another question for ya too. You mentioned something about the fans?
Having Lime turn them off or something? What is that?

Ok, that's it I promise, no more questions tonight. Tomorrow, well that's another story!

 

[Mooseman]

Yes, the 4.8 and 5.3 use the same cam.

Sorry, I don't have the part number. Just order one for your truck. It's all the same.

For the tune, turning off the fan codes will allow you to eventually replace the stock failure prone and expensive electro-viscous fan clutch to an '08 thermal fan clutch. It won't stop it from working if yours is still good, just won't give your codes and the CEL for it.

 

[New Envoy]

Morning Mooseman, I'm back asking more questions for you today! I was just reading somewhere else and they mentioned blocking some ports off with a plug? And something else about drilling some holes in something else? Said something about the DOD engines have a different oil pump that pumps more than a normal one would. And the newly drilled holes will help the oil return to the pan faster to avoid it from going dry. Know anything about this?

 

[Mooseman]

Plugging the holes for the DOD lifters, the 4.8L lifter valley cover takes care of that.

For drilling holes, never heard of that but I don't see an advantage of doing that.

There might be a difference in oil pumps to compensate for the DOD system. Could explain why my pressure is a little on the lower side now. I'd stick with the stock DOD oil pump unless it's the same part number between say, the 4.8L and the 5.3L.

 

[New Envoy]

Ya, I don't think I'm actually going to change the oil pump. I have to pull it off, so I'll take it apart to clean it and inspest the relief valve. But if everything seems OK with it, I'll just reuse it.

 

[RedRocketZ28]

And something else about drilling some holes in something else? Said something about the DOD engines have a different oil pump that pumps more than a normal one would. And the newly drilled holes will help the oil return to the pan faster to avoid it from going dry. Know anything about this?

They are talking about drilling holes in the lifter trays which supposedly helps the oil drain back a little better. Flip a coin on whether you do this or not. I didn't drill any holes in my lifter trays in the 6.0 in my Camaro and I run a Melling high volume oil pump. I had no issues at all in the 4+ years the engine was in my car and it saw 600-750 rwhp for all 4 years on the stock bottom end.

What all did you purchase so far? I certainly wouldn't spend the money Texas Speed wants on a stock cam. Guys give those things away and good used stock cam should easily be sourced. Also, you don't need to replace the rocker(s). They will be perfectly fine.

 

[New Envoy]

Well, I think I've already bought almost everything I need. I dis go ahead and get the kit from TS. I too thought it was kinda over priced. But, it was there, ready, and easy. I didn't really have the time to go looking for parts. I still need the exhaust manifold gaskets, a new timing chain set, probably going to replace the one rocker and one push rod that the lifter took out. I think that's about it. I'm sure once I actually tear in to it, I'll find more stuff I need though.

 

[New Envoy]

Well, just an update, still in the garage. But, to be fair, I didn't really even start on it till last night. Got busy with work and life. Anyway, Got it all tore down last night, got the oil pump off (gotta love that bolt, and the tab on my pump that everybody just spins around is welded on mine). Got the new cam and lifters in. Going to send the heads out to get rebuilt. Will finish it all up this coming weekend, hopefully........

But, I do have a couple questions for you all. I got the new ARP bolts with the kit. I know the original bolts you had to torque to a ft lb, then so many degrees. But with the new ARP bolts, its just a torque. But what is the torque? Need that info for the heads and the crank pulley.

 

[Mooseman]

No idea. Didn't ARP supply a torque? Maybe contact them.

For the oil pump bolt, I had the same issue. I used the other bolt hole (like in D-Ray's video) but with washers to hold the pickup tube to the pump. I had taken pictures but my wife can't find her camera. But you get the idea.

 

[Sparky]

Factory bolts are TTY, hence the torque + degrees, but ARP are not. I'd think they'd provide the proper torque though with them.

 

[Mooseman]

Found the pics.

As reference, this is before (bolt is on the lower right side and partially hidden by oil pan)


This is with the bolt in the other hole (upper left) using washers. Had to notch the large washer to clear the tube. Also used a slightly longer bolt.


Edit: I also used some blue Loctite on the bolt.

To prime the pump, I filled it with oil after it was installed by removing the oil gallery allen plug next to the pump on the left (driver) side of the block, shoved/screwed in a 3/8" hose in there with a funnel at the other end and poured oil into the funnel, letting gravity do its thing. No fancy priming pumps required. Worked like a charm. Got the idea from here.

 

[New Envoy]

Ok, when I got the kit, it all came in one big box. I open the box, and there was no papers, no instructions, no words of encouragement, nothing, just the parts. So, I didn't think I had any torque specs. But I just went out and actually opened the prepackaged box of head bolts, and in that box was a paper for the torque specs of the head bolts. But, the crank pulley bolt is not in a package or anything. Just a bolt thrown in to the big box. So I still don't know about that torque spec.

And Mooseman, great idea with the washers! And, on a side note, nice camera work too! After being in that same spot, I realize there really isn't much room to work, let alone take pictures.

 

[mrrsm]

For the sake of all the other Members and Folks who will visit your posts and seek to understand your work... One of our MODS @Blckshdw has a very famous saying:

"If You Don't Have Pictures... It Never Happened..."

You probably already know or have already done much of this … But just in case you have to drop everything and a lot of time passes between your chances to work on the truck... in addition to keeping the components and fasteners in Plastic Bags Magic Marked, etc., it will be good to have a clever way to organize your OEM Engine Disassembly Components Imagery List by taking as many useful Before and After Images as possible and either park them here ... or at a linked Photobucket. This usually is helped by having a Naming System that covers four things:

(1) The Engine as its appears now… with Gradual Disassembly images for shared reviews here.
(2) The Individual Old OEM Engine Components as they get removed in an orderly fashion.
(3) The Images of the Brand New Engine Components… Including The Box Ends Part ID Numbers.
(4) The Enlarged Images &Print-Outs of all the Torque Patterns, Step-By-Steps for Major Components.

Added as a Text Document should be all of the links you can find here and out on the Internet that narrow down the unique “How To Do This Part...” of the Best of the Lot Instructions on articles and private postings that your own research reveals. THE most helpful of these will include Youtubes Up the Yin-Yang as more than likely, many Mechanics with a wide range of abilities have already done the ‘Heavy Lifting’ you would ordinarily have to struggle with and shown the Best Way to Do Certain Tasks… using the Human Eye as the Best Way to Learn How… to do this sort of stuff.

 

[Sparky]

Check Moose's signature for the service manuals, I'd imagine the crank bolt torque is listed. However, I'm sure it is like so many of them out there - ridiculously tight. I know some guys just hit the crank pulley with an impact to drive it tight.

 

[mrrsm]

...unfortunately... All OEM Fasteners can only be ordered separately from GM and are usually not included with their parts... This is an example link to one site that show the New Crankshaft bolt for your vehicle:

https://www.gmpartsgiant.com/parts-...rts.html?PNC=a1c2aa036f0bee7b197a5328aa3b0a51

 

[Sparky]

He has the bolt. Just no spec.