4.2 to 5.3 Engine Swap Talk

groundshock

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
248
Fellas, I'd like to bring this topic up again.

There's always been conflicting reports of what's possible in this scenario and I'd like to get the collective in on this, hopefully turning it into a real resource for questions. Most topics on this are young kids or uneducated guys that fly in with a 2 post count, ask "hOw cAn i pUt a v8 iN mAh TB?" with no real intent to properly take on the task or ever actually do anything, much less document the project for the collective's benefit.

Other (personal) reasons are:
1. I have an 02-only Victory Red LS, clean as a whistle, no rust, and they don't make an SS in that color. As far as I'm concerned, it's by far the finest color offered on these things.
2. My truck is paid off and has been for a while. It also only books for somewhere in the 3-5K range. Even high mile SS trucks are still 12K+. I'd have to kick essentially 10K to basically upgrade 2 cylinders and 100HP. Not economically sound. I'm sure this swap could be done for less than 30% of that.
3. Since my truck is an LS, I really have JUST the basics... PW, PL, AC, tilt, cruise, and selectable 4wd instead of AWD. No DIC, no power seats, no leather, no auto wipers, etc etc etc. NO bullshit. Less shit to go wrong, and I honestly don't want any of that garbage.
4. Truck has 155K on it and it ticks a little in the lower end of the motor. At some point, it's going to need a transplant.
5. Aftermarket support. 4.2? There is none... 5.3? Quite the opposite.

Sounds to me like the perfect candidate for a well-documented 5.3 swap that can finally put this whole mess to bed, if it's feasible.

All that said, let's discuss the issue. My initial thought is, find a rolled 5.3 EXT, swap powertrains and maybe the dash and underhood harnesses, and this should really be a plug and play deal.

Thoughts?
 

ConeKilrAutoX

Member
Dec 8, 2011
1,179
I will be watching this thread for sure. I would think it is feasible for sure. A lot cheaper than a new vehicle definitely. Like you said i6 aftermarket is barely anything besides and air intake which is why I wanted to do the unique turbo build....haha and to be honest I had no idea how much money this would end up costing. I went in with a $1000 budget...I am now at $4,000+ ($800 just for the TiAL wastegates) and still have easily another $200 order.

I am sure that swapping the dash, the pcm, the complete engine harness would be great and then any differential/transmission changes/upgrades (or not) as well would still put you WAY under the price of a new vehicle especially a vehicle that wouldn't have that awesome red paint job.
 

groundshock

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
248
Thanks for the support. I've been lurking in your turbo thread for some time as well and was seriously considering that route as well. Can't wait to see your numbers and some vids when it's done.

I've done SO much reading on this that my eyes are going to bleed. There's a ton of info out there but it's scattered in ten different websites. I've reached out to a few guys from TBSSOwners that looked to have some solid information and one of them claims to have done the swap already. Hopefully they can spare the time to come and contribute to this thread.

I've weighed all the options and all of them point to 'Sell it and buy an SS' or 'Be happy with the I6'. I'm not satisfied with those answers. The 5.3 is a factory installed piece in trucks identical to mine, save for a couple extra inches of trunk. There's gotta be a way, and I really think it might be pretty straightforward with the right selection of electronics and possibly a full donor vehicle.

Women roll SUV's all the time... :raspberry:
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
The ticking could be anything. Exhaust leak perhaps. I'm rolling 174 pushing 175k on mine so far. And all 4x4 Trailblazers and Envoys had manual selection switches. Only the Rainier, 9-7x, Bravada, and TBSS had the AWD setups.

I've figured that you could put ANY engine in these trucks that physically fits, and screw the BCM and all the techno-wizardry CAN-BUS systems. Rewire it all to be basic with switches and relays like the old school days for most of it, and use an aftermarket remote start system for the power locks. It could all be done. A lot of work, but can be done. And as you said, easier on an LS with "less stuff" to worry about.

But anyway, that might be going too far with it. As far as retaining a factory BCM and the intelligent systems I don't know how to go about all that. Maybe use a donor PCM/BCM that thinks it is still in a 5.3 truck? Sure, the computer would read a different VIN than the vehicle actually has, but it can't read the nameplate on the windshield, so who cares :rotfl:

I still have this (crazy) idea of getting a newer Trailblazer later and finding a way to shoehorn a duramax under the hood :crazy:
 

C-ya

Member
Aug 24, 2012
1,098
Sparky said:
I've figured that you could put ANY engine in these trucks that physically fits, and screw the BCM and all the techno-wizardry CAN-BUS systems. Rewire it all to be basic with switches and relays like the old school days for most of it, and use an aftermarket remote start system for the power locks. It could all be done. A lot of work, but can be done. And as you said, easier on an LS with "less stuff" to worry about.

But anyway, that might be going too far with it. As far as retaining a factory BCM and the intelligent systems I don't know how to go about all that. Maybe use a donor PCM/BCM that thinks it is still in a 5.3 truck? Sure, the computer would read a different VIN than the vehicle actually has, but it can't read the nameplate on the windshield, so who cares :rotfl:

I went the low tech route when I put a carb'ed SBC in my Hombre (aka S-10/Sonoma). Lost anti-lock brakes and factory speedo, but whatever. Were I to do it again, I'd get as much of the harness and controls from a full-size that had a V8 and use a newer engine that was FI. It was out of my budget at the time.

Good luck with the project if you decide to take it on. I think it would do-able since, like was posted earlier, it was a factory option in these vehicles. It's not like you are reinventing the wheel here like I did. The S-trucks had the 4.3 as their biggest engine option.
 

BoldAdventure

Member
Jun 28, 2012
1,634
I've actually seen a SBC in a Trailblazer that was on ebay recently. It's perfectly doable and very easy if you skip going fuel injection. If doing a 5.3 swap, it's mostly straight forward, but depending on your options you may need some additional items.

I've been thinking about this, as I've been eyeballing this for a month: 2003 2004 GMC Envoy XUV 5 3L LM4 Engine Liftout w 4x4 Trans Transfercase | eBay

However, my wife and I just found an 06 5.3 SWB LS for 3500$ with 140K miles.

Our LTZ is in excellent shape, fully loaded, 4x4, sunroof, all the premium package options. We paid cash when we got it (interest payments are for dummies). So if we where to upgrade, we'd want another LTZ and same options or as close as possible. Probably going to be a hard item to find. So an engine swap seems easier to swing.

The engine mounts are different, but if you have a welder this is an easy fix. I've heard the radiator's are different, but I'm not 100% sure on that issue. And even if it is, you could just go the custom route and upgrade the whole cooling system like this guy did: OffRoad TB - View topic - Cooling System Upgrades Part II: Radiator

The transmissions are almost the same, but the bell-housing is different, and someone correct me, I think certain years have a speed sensor or other additional sensors. I know the SS has an additional ECM unit on the transmission.

So it'd probably be best to find yourself a engine+transmission combo, if you're going 4x4 get the transfer case too. The 5.3L SWB also has larger brakes and the 8.6 rear end.

Plenty of folks have swapped the rear ends and a few guys have swapped to the larger 13inch rotor. All you need is the calipers, rotors and caliper brackets.

The wiring harness you'll find is almost the same, you can remove the harness from the old and hookup the 5.3L's harness and find most connectors will work. Splicing isn't that hard for others. You'll probably need to change things like O2 sensors, Maf sensors, and a few other misc things. (I am referring to a complete harness with ECM)

I believe you may need to upgrade the fuel pump, not 100% sure on that, but most likely.

I'm in the middle of an engine swap on my 1980 Corvette going to LS1, so I've been doing lots of reading on the subject.

Personally, if I just felt like throwing all my money at the Trailblazer and never finishing my Corvette, I'd find a way to shove an LS3 in there. I'm sure it'd fit. I just don't want AWD. Leave that for the SS and lowrider guys.

A diesel would be fun, but I'm not one who wants to solve every issue under the sun. Some projects are more involved in the DIY department than others.
 

groundshock

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
248
Yeah, hopefully we can get some solid knowledge in here.

Things I've learned so far:

-03/04 EXT trucks should have the most compatible wiring with my 02.
-03/04 TB/Voy V8 PCM will at least have a factory base tune on it.
-There MAY be a frame difference, maybe not. Conflicting opinions and no real info on what is different.
-V8 trucks use the same transmission as the I6, but there are valve body differences, and the bellhousing is probably different.
-Cooling systems may be different.
 

bigytwotone

Member
Dec 7, 2011
489
Dawson creek BC Canada
i heave done a lot of reading as well and have bought a complete donor trailblazer with all the parts the frame is bent but runs great now i need to read more and spent $300 on a car to drive while i swap trucks.


now qusetions i have 2003 trailblazer LTZ loaded and have a 2006 trailblazer LT with the 5.3 and it has almost all the opitions i have but i have the sun roof and autodim mirror am i going to have to mesh wire harnesses???
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
The sunroof can be done separate from the body harness. I should know, my truck has one added to it later and it has aftermarket wiring running to it for power and ignition. That's all it needed on the older ones anyway.
 

BoldAdventure

Member
Jun 28, 2012
1,634
bigytwotone said:
i heave done a lot of reading as well and have bought a complete donor trailblazer with all the parts the frame is bent but runs great now i need to read more and spent $300 on a car to drive while i swap trucks.


now qusetions i have 2003 trailblazer LTZ loaded and have a 2006 trailblazer LT with the 5.3 and it has almost all the opitions i have but i have the sun roof and autodim mirror am i going to have to mesh wire harnesses???

What you will find is that the wiring harness is actually two parts. It looks like it's going inside your firewall and all over but it's not. It's actually just on the engine and there are connectors everywhere connecting the various portions of the harness. It can be totally removed and swapped out. There are even people on ebay who sell spliced engine harnesses just so you can put engine XYZ in vehicle XYZ.

View attachment 26814

Basically this is it. It plugs into the car. The PCM on the I6 also sits in the engine bay. Gauges in the dash may actually be different. As mentioned, the transmissions have different valve bodies, so the speedo's are probably calibrated differently if I think about it. Not 100% sure though as I thought a few I6 guys have swapped in SS clusters.

What I did mean by splicing the harness is one or two sensors might need spliced to hook up to the old one if a connector doesn't match up. If that makes sense.

It's also midnight and I've been up since 6am so I should probably save any technical responses for tomorrow. I can barely keep it together. G'night!
 

groundshock

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
248
bigytwotone said:
i heave done a lot of reading as well and have bought a complete donor trailblazer with all the parts the frame is bent but runs great now i need to read more and spent $300 on a car to drive while i swap trucks.

How much did you pay for the donor vehicle?

And the sunroof and auto-dim mirror should damn near be independent of everything and be very simple to re-wire if need be.
 

Pittdawg

Member
Dec 5, 2011
538
ConeKilrAutoX said:
Like you said i6 aftermarket is barely anything besides and air intake which is why I wanted to do the unique turbo build....haha and to be honest I had no idea how much money this would end up costing.

Don't get me wrong a 5.3 swap would be sweet but there are plenty of mods available for a 4.2. I'll run against any stock 5.3 and whoop it with my modded 4.2.
 

groundshock

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
248
Pittdawg said:
Don't get me wrong a 5.3 swap would be sweet but there are plenty of mods available for a 4.2. I'll run against any stock 5.3 and whoop it with my modded 4.2.

All fine and dandy, but no doubt you're probably maxed out on the 4.2, or at least getting into diminishing returns. LS based 5.3, well, sky's the limit.

Dollar for dollar, the V8 is the better option. No question.
 

groundshock

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
248
mikekey said:
I've actually seen a SBC in a Trailblazer that was on ebay recently. It's perfectly doable and very easy if you skip going fuel injection. If doing a 5.3 swap, it's mostly straight forward, but depending on your options you may need some additional items.

I've been thinking about this, as I've been eyeballing this for a month: 2003 2004 GMC Envoy XUV 5 3L LM4 Engine Liftout w 4x4 Trans Transfercase | eBay

However, my wife and I just found an 06 5.3 SWB LS for 3500$ with 140K miles.

Our LTZ is in excellent shape, fully loaded, 4x4, sunroof, all the premium package options. We paid cash when we got it (interest payments are for dummies). So if we where to upgrade, we'd want another LTZ and same options or as close as possible. Probably going to be a hard item to find. So an engine swap seems easier to swing.

The engine mounts are different, but if you have a welder this is an easy fix. I've heard the radiator's are different, but I'm not 100% sure on that issue. And even if it is, you could just go the custom route and upgrade the whole cooling system like this guy did: OffRoad TB - View topic - Cooling System Upgrades Part II: Radiator

The transmissions are almost the same, but the bell-housing is different, and someone correct me, I think certain years have a speed sensor or other additional sensors. I know the SS has an additional ECM unit on the transmission.

So it'd probably be best to find yourself a engine+transmission combo, if you're going 4x4 get the transfer case too. The 5.3L SWB also has larger brakes and the 8.6 rear end.

Plenty of folks have swapped the rear ends and a few guys have swapped to the larger 13inch rotor. All you need is the calipers, rotors and caliper brackets.

The wiring harness you'll find is almost the same, you can remove the harness from the old and hookup the 5.3L's harness and find most connectors will work. Splicing isn't that hard for others. You'll probably need to change things like O2 sensors, Maf sensors, and a few other misc things. (I am referring to a complete harness with ECM)

I believe you may need to upgrade the fuel pump, not 100% sure on that, but most likely.

I'm in the middle of an engine swap on my 1980 Corvette going to LS1, so I've been doing lots of reading on the subject.

Personally, if I just felt like throwing all my money at the Trailblazer and never finishing my Corvette, I'd find a way to shove an LS3 in there. I'm sure it'd fit. I just don't want AWD. Leave that for the SS and lowrider guys.

A diesel would be fun, but I'm not one who wants to solve every issue under the sun. Some projects are more involved in the DIY department than others.

Fantastic info. You must've been posting while I wes typing, haha. You found a shorty 5.3 TB for sale? I was under the impression that only the EXT's and some other Saab/etc. came with the 5.3.
 

ScarabEpic22

Member
Nov 20, 2011
728
The cooling system IS different just to confirm your earlier post, the V8s have (at least) a larger radiator.

03-05 5.3L wiring harness from a TB/Voy EXT is the way to go. It should plug right in under the factory fusebox. Now, be warned, the I6 and V8 fuseboxes are different so Id at least find out what the differences are so you know what the fuses now do. You *should* not need to change any other harnesses except for the main engine/transmission one. But, this swap hasnt been done and/or if it has no one has reported on this.

You're going to need a different rear end, whether you do it now or soon post-swap, it WILL need to be done. The puny 8" rear diff the SWB I6 guys got cant handle any power. 8.6" from a SWB 5.3, and LWB, or 9.5" TBSS/Aero are your drop-in options. 2005-2008 there were factory trucks with the 5.3 in SWB form, the TB got it in 06 but the Denali started in 05 (maybe 04, cant remember).

A/C lines will need to be used from a V8 as well.

For the tune, ANY 1MB LS1B PCM will work. Any good tuner can get you one and flash it with the latest factory OS for an 03-04 5.3L truck. All you need is a VIN from one of those trucks to pull it from GM SPS/Tis2Web, then you can change the VIN back to what the one in your truck is (EFILive only, HPTuners has VIN/OS mismatch checks).

For fab work, the motor mounts will need to be cut off and V8 ones welded into place. If you do this correctly, use the transmission mount as a reference because I dont believe the location changed based on I6 vs V8. Id use the larger V8 radiator or a custom thicker one for a V8 truck.


I believe this is most of the infomation I have on this swap, Ive been watching an engine harness on eBay for a month plus now but just cant bring myself to doing the swap on my 02. I have the SS for power/speed and I love these I6 engines. Ask away with more questions!
 

groundshock

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
248
Thanks again for your info on this man.

That's where I really felt like this should be a relatively straightforward swap. The wiring. Closely similar optioned TB's in my mind SHOULD be the same on the body harness, no? The engine harness should be damn near standalone.

I just can't see this being anything close to a nightmare.

I hear you on the love for the I6, I'm not unimpressed with it. But I don't have that SS for fun... :smile:
 

BoldAdventure

Member
Jun 28, 2012
1,634
groundshock said:
Thanks again for your info on this man.

That's where I really felt like this should be a relatively straightforward swap. The wiring. Closely similar optioned TB's in my mind SHOULD be the same on the body harness, no? The engine harness should be damn near standalone.

I just can't see this being anything close to a nightmare.

I hear you on the love for the I6, I'm not unimpressed with it. But I don't have that SS for fun... :smile:

I don't think it would be a nightmare if doing a straight swap over. Probably the easiest route is going to be with a donor car. Easiest for reference, easiest for pulling parts from, less trying to figure out.

If someone does this, and nails down everything they had to swap over and change out, it will open the doors for other engine projects.
 

BoldAdventure

Member
Jun 28, 2012
1,634
groundshock said:
Wonder where a guy could look to find a rolled 03-05 V8 EXT....

Craigslist, ebay, and insurance claims sales. And some junk yards will sell/list whole cars before sticking them on the lot.
 

BoldAdventure

Member
Jun 28, 2012
1,634
limequat said:
In the OPs position, I'd be looking at a turbo. Motor swaps always cost double what you plan.

Why so you can top out at 100 extra hp and put pressure on an engine with no internal options for beefing things up?

I like to think of it this way, the 5.3L starts with more HP, has more mod options, like heads/cam/intake availability, bore and stroke potential and they even make bolt on 5.3L supercharger kits: 2003-2006 GM Vortec 5.3L V8 Truck / SUV Supercharging Systems | Vortech Superchargers

I think their are a few guys on the SS forums with twin screw chargers.

Bigger is better dollar for dollar. And if you can snag a donor car for say $3000 then I highly doubt you'll run into $5000 of additional cost. Motor swaps are expensive when you're trying to stick something into something else that never came nor was designed for what you're trying to cram into it.
 
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Jkust

Member
Dec 4, 2011
946
I'd love to see someone actually try this swap. That said, I've got 2 of the v8 360's currently and had another prior. It's not that fantastic unless you tow stuff. Maybe I can hit 90mph from 60mph a couple seconds faster, sounds a bit better and sure can mod it easier. The sheer amount of time to do this swap has got to be worth thousands and thousands of dollars of your time by itself plus the parts.
 

limequat

Member
Dec 8, 2011
520
mikekey said:
Why so you can top out at 100 extra hp and put pressure on an engine with no internal options for beefing things up?

I like to think of it this way, the 5.3L starts with more HP, has more mod options, like heads/cam/intake availability, bore and stroke potential and they even make bolt on 5.3L supercharger kits: 2003-2006 GM Vortec 5.3L V8 Truck / SUV Supercharging Systems | Vortech Superchargers

I think their are a few guys on the SS forums with twin screw chargers.

Bigger is better dollar for dollar. And if you can snag a donor car for say $3000 then I highly doubt you'll run into $5000 of additional cost. Motor swaps are expensive when you're trying to stick something into something else that never came nor was designed for what you're trying to cram into it.

Starting from zero, yeah, the V8 will make more power dollar for dollar. But what's the end goal? 400 HP? 500 HP?

Check out Autoroc's camaro build. He put 414 hp to the rear wheels. That's over 500 at the crank and it's a pretty basic build.

Much more than that, and the I6 would want new pistons. At that point the V8 makes sense, otherwise no.

With the 5.3 you have to figure in the cost of the engine plus the cost of the swap, just to get where you STARTED on the I6. Put that money into the I6 instead and you're farther ahead.
 

Jkust

Member
Dec 4, 2011
946

BoldAdventure

Member
Jun 28, 2012
1,634
Just spent an hour flipping thru 18 threads on the original TrailVoy, what's utterly hilarious and sad is how many times it has been asked, how many times the replies are almost always, immediately use the "search function" and "it's been discussed before". But the reality is, in none of the threads has it been heavily discussed other than people giving their opinions about why it's stupid or not possible or some other "opinion".

I thought for sure I'd find one piece of useful information to share here. So this thread will be useful.

We should start a list to repost between users as we add more to what's needed/parts list.
 

ScarabEpic22

Member
Nov 20, 2011
728
Cant use an 05 V8 engine harness...uses the E40/T42 combo which is CAN. Asking for more issues there.

I tempted to buy an 03-04 5.3L V8 harness and clone it because they're really tough to find. All you need is any 5.3L engine (or really any LSx V8).
 

Jkust

Member
Dec 4, 2011
946
So I'm shocked at the HP and TQ increases adding the supercharger on the 5.3. Those torque numbers are amazing.
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
Jkust said:
I'd love to see someone actually try this swap. That said, I've got 2 of the v8 360's currently and had another prior. It's not that fantastic unless you tow stuff. Maybe I can hit 90mph from 60mph a couple seconds faster, sounds a bit better and sure can mod it easier. The sheer amount of time to do this swap has got to be worth thousands and thousands of dollars of your time by itself plus the parts.

Maybe, but dollars may not be everything :biggrin:
 

groundshock

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
248
mikekey said:
Just spent an hour flipping thru 18 threads on the original TrailVoy, what's utterly hilarious and sad is how many times it has been asked, how many times the replies are almost always, immediately use the "search function" and "it's been discussed before". But the reality is, in none of the threads has it been heavily discussed other than people giving their opinions about why it's stupid or not possible or some other "opinion".

I thought for sure I'd find one piece of useful information to share here. So this thread will be useful.

We should start a list to repost between users as we add more to what's needed/parts list.

Exactly why I started the thread. There's tons of threads in different forums, but they're littered with opinions, misinformation, and bullshit.

Hopefully we can keep this thread on topic and bs-free.
 

DDonnie

Member
Mar 26, 2012
2,631
Jkust said:
So I'm shocked at the HP and TQ increases adding the supercharger on the 5.3. Those torque numbers are amazing.

Haha, a few hundred here and there i can handle, but i will never be able to plunk down 5k for something I dont need. Fricken awesome rig tho.
 

navigator

Member
Dec 3, 2011
504
ScarabEpic22 said:
.....
You're going to need a different rear end, whether you do it now or soon post-swap, it WILL need to be done. The puny 8" rear diff the SWB I6 guys got cant handle any power. 8.6" from a SWB 5.3, and LWB, or 9.5" TBSS/Aero are your drop-in options......

I think the 9.5 will bolt in but if I recall you'll have to have your driveshaft shortened. HARDTRAILZ did this upgrade, he might have a thread with more info on here.

I figure though you'll go with a V8 donor vehicle that already has an 8.6 rear.
 

Jkust

Member
Dec 4, 2011
946
dcmtnbkr said:
Haha, a few hundred here and there i can handle, but i will never be able to plunk down 5k for something I dont need. Fricken awesome rig tho.

Right the whole kit for the 07, 5.3 on up I clicked on was crazy expensive. I suppose if you don't have kids or something...you have a lot of money to burn. The supercharger numbers exceed the stock 6.0 numbers especially torque-wise. I wonder if the 4 cylinder mode would ever kick in with one of these things hooked up?
 

BoldAdventure

Member
Jun 28, 2012
1,634
Jkust said:
Right the whole kit for the 07, 5.3 on up I clicked on was crazy expensive. I suppose if you don't have kids or something...you have a lot of money to burn. The supercharger numbers exceed the stock 6.0 numbers especially torque-wise. I wonder if the 4 cylinder mode would ever kick in with one of these things hooked up?

A lot of these kits are really aimed at guys who probably already have heads/cams or want a short cut to HP without the effort and never want anything more than the supercharger. I mean those numbers are impressive, but I'm sure you can do that with heads/cam/intake and tune.
 

ScarabEpic22

Member
Nov 20, 2011
728
navigator said:
I think the 9.5 will bolt in but if I recall you'll have to have your driveshaft shortened. HARDTRAILZ did this upgrade, he might have a thread with more info on here.

I figure though you'll go with a V8 donor vehicle that already has an 8.6 rear.

You have to do driveshaft work with both I believe, I know the 9.5" needs a shorter driveshaft but cant remember if the 8.6 does (I think it does).

Unless you can find a cheapo donor, Id just buy a 5.3, wiring harness, LS1B 1MB PCM, fab the engine mounts, and tune it. (takes a little more work than that I know)
 

bigytwotone

Member
Dec 7, 2011
489
Dawson creek BC Canada
groundshock said:
How much did you pay for the donor vehicle?

And the sunroof and auto-dim mirror should damn near be independent of everything and be very simple to re-wire if need be.

I bought it for $1000 from a lady here in BC she bought it back from ICBC when she rolled it with the intentions on fixing it but no time so I got it for a steel:smile: the truck has 56,000 KM's on it but the inside looks like s&$@
 

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