2 quarts of oil, no big symptoms and no leaks?

[Gerbil21]

.

 

[Mounce]

Looks like water in the oil to me.. Have you looked at the coolant in the radiator to see if anything is in there? Look at the radiator cap too like you did the oil cap.

 

[Gerbil21]

Looks like water in the oil to me.. Have you looked at the coolant in the radiator to see if anything is in there? Look at the radiator cap too like you did the oil cap.

They were both clear no oil or anything in them also level was the same.

 

[littleblazer]

It only takes a little water to do that, I'd say pull the oil and send it to a lab and have them check for coolant in it, I had a oil cooler on a boat fail and it looked about like that. Does it look the same on the dip stick? It is possible it is just condensation, mine gets that a little in the winter, but not that bad... You ever get around to the compression check?

 

[SmokeyMcBlazer]

Last time I saw oil like that was when I took the head off my old atv's blowed up motor. She took a big drink of bog water...

 

[Gerbil21]

It only takes a little water to do that, I'd say pull the oil and send it to a lab and have them check for coolant in it, I had a oil cooler on a boat fail and it looked about like that. Does it look the same on the dip stick? It is possible it is just condensation, mine gets that a little in the winter, but not that bad... You ever get around to the compression check?

I checked under the cap of my envoy and there was nothing so it seems that the moisture is more specific to his. The dipstick only had oil, no signs of moisture. also no we were wiring in his emergency lights and it was cold So we will do it next Sunday .

He dose park next to the water for work so I'm sure that brings in more moisture.

 

[littleblazer]

Still suspicious, what kind of oil was used for the change?

 

[Gerbil21]

Still suspicious, what kind of oil was used for the change?

5w-30 valvoline part-synthetic high mileage

Is there maybe an additive that would work to help seal rings since that is what it seems to be, or am I wrong?

 

[littleblazer]

Restore could band aid it, but in these engines it causes more harm than good... if it is the rings it's going to need an overhaul I believe...

 

[littleblazer]

Actually, I really wouldn't try anything though until every variable is known.

 

[Gerbil21]

Yea I'm looking towards the compression test to give some answers

 

[Mounce]

Piston rings won't let water into the oil because there's no water in the cylinders.. If compression tests fail to meet specs, its either unrelated or your head gasket is leaking which then you'd be losing oil most likely.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, that's just how I see it.


-I'll correct myself I think lol. After a quick look at things, it is losing oil? (I have a habit of reading a thread one day and forgetting half of the issues the next day)

 

[Gerbil21]

Piston rings won't let water into the oil because there's no water in the cylinders.. If compression tests fail to meet specs, its either unrelated or your head gasket is leaking which then you'd be losing oil most likely.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, that's just how I see it.

i doubt its the head gasket since it runs fine and coolant isnt affected at all also wouldn't carbon build up cause this too, with too much carbon it could make the rings stick and burn alot more oil right?

 

[Mounce]

Make the rings stick to what? They're stationary on the piston and are constantly moving while the engine is running. I always understood that only wore out rings would make it burn oil and they shouldn't be wore out at 135k miles.

 

[Gerbil21]

Make the rings stick to what? They're stationary on the piston and are constantly moving while the engine is running. I always understood that only wore out rings would make it burn oil and they shouldn't be wore out at 135k miles.

ive heard of piston rings sticking in place and not being able to move on the piston which would cause it to burn an excess of oil but idk, we never had a problem of burning oil especially like this before.

 

[littleblazer]

Piston rings won't let water into the oil because there's no water in the cylinders.. If compression tests fail to meet specs, its either unrelated or your head gasket is leaking which then you'd be losing oil most likely.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, that's just how I see it.


-I'll correct myself I think lol. After a quick look at things, it is losing oil? (I have a habit of reading a thread one day and forgetting half of the issues the next day)

You're good.
Could the water in the oil be a fluke? Maybe, but it would take a bit to make it that noticeable on the cap. Since the coolant system is pressurized from what I can understand, coolant will leak out, but oil won't leak in. But if the oil level isn't changing then in theory coolant isn't leaking out, and thus it is only losing oil. an eighth of a quart of coolant missing wont make a difference as far as level, you won't notice it really, but on the dipstick you should. There are too many unknowns in play right now to draw a conclusion though. Some things need to be eliminated from play before diagnosis can proceed. Generally a blown head gasket/ coolant leak will produce a sweet smell, I don't know if that's the case with dex cool though. On another note, my boat had an exhaust leak (watercooled) that allowed water into the 4th cylinder. There were no drivability issues unless extremely long periods of time were spent at idle, it felt like it was flooding. an increase in rpm would cause a rough running motor for about 10 seconds then clear up, the increased air flow was enough to dispel any further ingestion. Things aren't always by the book diagnosis's, motors can be tricky beasts and there could be an entire variable we are missing currently. I just don't want to make any wrong assessments and end up running around in circles when simple things are missed, sorry.

 

[Gerbil21]

You're good.
Could the water in the oil be a fluke? Maybe, but it would take a bit to make it that noticeable on the cap. Since the coolant system is pressurized from what I can understand, coolant will leak out, but oil won't leak in. But if the oil level isn't changing then in theory coolant isn't leaking out, and thus it is only losing oil. an eighth of a quart of coolant missing wont make a difference as far as level, you won't notice it really, but on the dipstick you should. There are too many unknowns in play right now to draw a conclusion though. Some things need to be eliminated from play before diagnosis can proceed. Generally a blown head gasket/ coolant leak will produce a sweet smell, I don't know if that's the case with dex cool though. On another note, my boat had an exhaust leak (watercooled) that allowed water into the 4th cylinder. There were no drivability issues unless extremely long periods of time were spent at idle, it felt like it was flooding. an increase in rpm would cause a rough running motor for about 10 seconds then clear up, the increased air flow was enough to dispel any further ingestion. Things aren't always by the book diagnosis's, motors can be tricky beasts and there could be an entire variable we are missing currently. I just don't want to make any wrong assessments and end up running around in circles when simple things are missed, sorry.

once again this sunday pulling all the plugs and checking the compression should paint a clear picture of any problem in the engine, before i got the 05 envoy i had a 99 blazer that a mechanic messed up and it blew the head gasket i know what its like and yes it does smell sweet and it also ran like crap, it also used dex cool.

iirc i did post that my brother usually lets it idle for a while, he usually lets it idle for more that 12 minutes since the remote start timer shuts it off and he would start it again so it would be ready to go when he leaves, i have told him a few times that its completely unnecessary and if anything would be worse to do than driving cold but he still does.

when he first told me about seeing a cloud of smoke he said that was usually after it idled a bit and he drove away.

also i know the exhaust manifold bolts on these engine usually break but its usually the last cylinder it could be causing a problem but i really don't think its that

 

[littleblazer]

once again this sunday pulling all the plugs and checking the compression should paint a clear picture of any problem in the engine, before i got the 05 envoy i had a 99 blazer that a mechanic messed up and it blew the head gasket i know what its like and yes it does smell sweet and it also ran like crap, it also used dex cool.

iirc i did post that my brother usually lets it idle for a while, he usually lets it idle for more that 12 minutes since the remote start timer shuts it off and he would start it again so it would be ready to go when he leaves, i have told him a few times that its completely unnecessary and if anything would be worse to do than driving cold but he still does.

when he first told me about seeing a cloud of smoke he said that was usually after it idled a bit and he drove away.

also i know the exhaust manifold bolts on these engine usually break but its usually the last cylinder it could be causing a problem but i really don't think its that

Exactly. I don't think it's a head gasket, but it could be excess condensation from letting it idle, the oil will take a very long time to warm up, so if there is moisture it will take longer to boil out... loose rings plus pressurized crank equals blow by which equals oil consumption. That's the way I see the oil leaving if it's not leaking out underneath it... I wonder if it's leaking into the bell housing, but I would think it would still be able to leak on the ground from there...

 

[Gerbil21]

Exactly. I don't think it's a head gasket, but it could be excess condensation from letting it idle, the oil will take a very long time to warm up, so if there is moisture it will take longer to boil out... loose rings plus pressurized crank equals blow by which equals oil consumption. That's the way I see the oil leaving if it's not leaking out underneath it... I wonder if it's leaking into the bell housing, but I would think it would still be able to leak on the ground from there...

by now there would be 7 quarts in there lol, im going to check the pcv hose on top of the engine to see of there is any oil smoke coming from there also installing a catch can between the pcv hose between the intake manifold and engine would be a good idea to stop filling the exhaust with oil.

 

[littleblazer]

I don't know if I'm dumb or just missed it, but how many miles were there for the loss? If it's doing this in only a few hundred miles, it has to be leaking, you would know if it were burning that much I would think. The cpas is the one right behind the power steering pump correct? If you have access to it, an air hammer on low on the little mounting tab could vibrate it loose or make it spin, like an impact on a rusty bolt. [emoji1]

 

[Gerbil21]

I don't know if I'm dumb or just missed it, but how many miles were there for the loss? If it's doing this in only a few hundred miles, it has to be leaking, you would know if it were burning that much I would think. The cpas is the one right behind the power steering pump correct? If you have access to it, an air hammer on low on the little mounting tab could vibrate it loose or make it spin, like an impact on a rusty bolt. [emoji1]

No I actually never wrote it, its only been like 300-450 miles but it may be a bit lower or a bit higher I'll check tomorrow. Also there is no visual smoke while idling and usually no smoke while driving except for times that my brother says that he can see a smoke cloud behind him while driving or after driving away after a few minutes of idling.

Also I was wrong the cpas isnt messed up it was the 2 quarts of oil that made it set that code, it is stuck but we'll deal with it when we have to but for now its just this.

So far we haven't seen any leaks just the black sooty exhaust pipe

 

[lint]

You can try Rislone I have used it for years to keep rings from sticking ,some in the oil and i used to put a little in the gas but not sure if you can do that in newer cars . http://rislone.com/product/engine-treatment-2/ it will help the bottom rings in the oil but you need something to unstick the top rings too, thats why i put some in the gas but like i said putting in the gas may hurt the cat. and o2 sensor if the oil has not been changed properly it can gum up and the rings can stick

 

[Gerbil21]

OK well today my brother came home and he said the car was shaking petty bad, I checked the codes and it said random cylinder misfire, and fan speed sensor circuit. He started it and he said it was shaking less but the engine was still shaking and you can hear the exhaust puffing with the miss.

I pulled the pcv hose on the resonator and it was full of the milky stuff that's on the oil cap but there wasn't much oil smoke, the oil cap was the same with the milky stuff on top and not much smoke puffing either so maybe rings aren't that bad?

Either way when he revved it up there was a bit of a knocking sound also the exhaust was a thick gray exhaust with a scent that reminded me of coolant smell.

Then he turned it off and I checked the codes again since the cel light was solid now and it showed cylinder #3 misfire. A quick read showed that it's most likely the coil or could be a valve seat issue.

 

[littleblazer]

Coolant leaking into the cylinder will increase pressure, causing a miss due to less combustible materials and a shake. When my number 4 was filling with water on the boat it felt like you were bottoming out or like you lost a motor mount... start looking towards the head gasket.

 

[Gerbil21]

Here's a video i wrote in the description the cylinders that were looked at, it starts with #3 now were looking at swapping the engine any pointers?

http://youtu.be/jVLv1Un2qcg

 

[littleblazer]

It could still be a head gasket, drain the oil, pull the head replace the gasket, then change the oil like 10 times. look back to see if it gets back in the oil again, it can still be saved. As far as engine swapping though, I guess get everything out you can, take your time document everything stay organized. Replace the motor mounts while you have it out as well, service anything that may be questionable? Thats what I would do.

 

[Gerbil21]

It could still be a head gasket, drain the oil, pull the head replace the gasket, then change the oil like 10 times. look back to see if it gets back in the oil again, it can still be saved. As far as engine swapping though, I guess get everything out you can, take your time document everything stay organized. Replace the motor mounts while you have it out as well, service anything that may be questionable? Thats what I would do.

We talked about it and figured it would probably be more work pulling just the head dealing with the timing chain, head bolts, and also if we do it we still have an engine with oil burning problems. An engine swap would be in and out.

 

[Mooseman]

You're right not dealing with the head. If the head gasket blew, it's for a reason, maybe the head is warped or cracked. And if it had oil burning issues before that, it's full rebuild or swap time.

For the swap itself, just arm yourself with patience. Like everything else with these trucks, it's not an easy job because of the 4x4 and tight spaces. Take pictures and video to remind you of how things go back. When you have the engine out, take the boroscope down the exhaust and check the cat to see if it's plugged. Do yourself a favor and take the intake manifold off for the extra space. One thing I did was remove the engine mounts and dropped it onto the crossmember to give me more space to get the top bellhousing bolts out.

 

[smokey262]

If your brother is going to change the engine and keep the truck for awhile, the good news is that while it is out you will have outstanding access to a few of the things that suck to change with the engine in place. Thinking of the trans cooler tubes, power steering tubes, valve cover gasket, thermostat, etc.

 

[Gerbil21]

If your brother is going to change the engine and keep the truck for awhile, the good news is that while it is out you will have outstanding access to a few of the things that suck to change with the engine in place. Thinking of the trans cooler tubes, power steering tubes, valve cover gasket, thermostat, etc.

Right now were planning on removing the head and replacing the head gasket if it looks all good and we can see that the gasket was the problem if not then a swap would be the only choice but we would already have the engine bare so it would be easier to remove.

 

[Gerbil21]

Just a quick question would using a impact help with removal also after following GM's directions

this is from the 08 manual

 

[littleblazer]

If you're going to use an impact on head bolts, I would make sure to break them free by hand first, you don't want to have a stuck one then have the bolt head snap off.

 

[Mooseman]

Breaking them free by hand is what breaks them. GM suggests to tap them with a punch I guess to break them loose first. An impact might have the same effect. Or maybe using an air chisel with a point on it to hit the bolt head might work. I still think that some bolts will break. So far, haven't heard of anybody not breaking a head bolt.

 

[Gerbil21]

Breaking them free by hand is what breaks them. GM suggests to tap them with a punch I guess to break them loose first. An impact might have the same effect. Or maybe using an air chisel with a point on it to hit the bolt head might work. I still think that some bolts will break. So far, haven't heard of anybody not breaking a head bolt.

I think hitting them with a Punch and using an impact should be good and hey maybe well be the first

 

[Mooseman]

Good luck bro.

 

[Gerbil21]

Good luck bro.

well we started and gave up we also changed our mind to change the engine instead we are still going to tear this one down still and see what exactly happened, but the crazy high wind gust and its 20 degrees with a low of 1 so were not going to be doing this were going to see how much a shop can do it for.

if we had a garage we would of been tearing through this but we don't and we have to work on it in the street in front of the house and everything is still iced up also so its just not going to work

 

[Gerbil21]

Any ideas on how much it might cost to get the engine swapped, so far we found a 05 engine with 74k for $750.

Also how much might it cost to get it rebuilt instead?

 

[Mooseman]

It's a lot of hours so it can't be cheap. I hear ya on doing it outside. I just swapped my rear diff and it wasn't pleasant. Who knows how much a rebuild costs. Got to be at least double the price of a used engine.

 

[Gerbil21]

It's a lot of hours so it can't be cheap. I hear ya on doing it outside. I just swapped my rear diff and it wasn't pleasant. Who knows how much a rebuild costs. Got to be at least double the price of a used engine.

Well tomorrow we'll found out but if we do it then its just 750 and the price for motor mounts and fluids

 

[Gerbil21]

OK sorry i didn't post an update but we took it to a shop and there going to do it for $650 he's also getting the same engine we found for $750 with 74k but he's charging $1100 but he's giving a year warranty on the engine and labor so it comes out good.

We are going to pass by there soon and check up on how's it going and also see if there's a core charge on the engine but he said that he doesn't think so. If there isn't a core charge then well be bringing the the engine back home and tearing it down.

We did plan on removing the engine ourselves but with low tempatures and strong winds it wasn't going to be easy