02 I6 no start help

danger

Original poster
Member
Apr 6, 2014
37
MAY03LT said:
If it is definitely in time I'm going with gmcman on possible intake valve(s). You might be able to save yourself the hassle of buttoning it back up just to do the compression test by skipping it and doing a leakdown test on each cylinder.



I've heard of them wiping out coils and throwing p0300s but not causing mechanical damage. Unless I'm misreading this post.



:iagree:

well, I have inspected everything... guides, gears, etc... and all are in good shape... no wear. there is only about... maybe an 1/8th of play in the chain. as for the oil level... it's good, full and freshly changed before this happened.
 

triz

Member
Apr 22, 2013
746
I had to go back to the video and listen. Did you change the plugs before checking for correct timing?

I'm of the mind that it is plugs or a faulty crankshaft position sensor. The plugs could keep the truck from starting as well. They also could cause an issue with the timing. Over advance timing, or just incorrect timing.

As far as the Crankshaft Position Sensor there should be a value to test it. x.x - x.x to test if its faulty with a multimeter. I just cant find it.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
triz said:
I had to go back to the video and listen.

Dayum....I didn't see the video link, my crappy phone doesn't highlight the link. Sounds like a loss of compression as well as a Caterpillar loader firing up....:undecided:

Lots of rattling, sorry Danger, I didn't see the vid earlier. With the intake off and the valve train covered for protection, I would do a leak down test and see which cylinders are bleeding off air, easy to hear what's going on with the intake off.

Hopefully there is so much carbon that it's trying to diesel and no damaged components. Take the serpentine belt off and see if you can get a breaker bar on the harmonic balancer bolt from below...look for any abnormal slop in rotating the crank back and forth.

Fingers crossed.

Another possible option.....if the crank gear jumped a tooth, wouldn't the cam gears still show proper orientation?
 

danger

Original poster
Member
Apr 6, 2014
37
gmcman said:
Dayum....I didn't see the video link, my crappy phone doesn't highlight the link. Sounds like a loss of compression as well as a Caterpillar loader firing up....:undecided:

Lots of rattling, sorry Danger, I didn't see the vid earlier. With the intake off and the valve train covered for protection, I would do a leak down test and see which cylinders are bleeding off air, easy to hear what's going on with the intake off.

Hopefully there is so much carbon that it's trying to diesel and no damaged components. Take the serpentine belt off and see if you can get a breaker bar on the harmonic balancer bolt from below...look for any abnormal slop in rotating the crank back and forth.

Fingers crossed.

Another possible option.....if the crank gear jumped a tooth, wouldn't the cam gears still show proper orientation?


There isn't enough slop in the chain for it to allow jumping the crank gear. I am going to do a leak down test. As for other question... the plugs are the plugs that were in it when I purchased it about a month ago. Where would I find the crank shaft positioning sensor.... nevermind.... I'll refer to the service manual.
 

jsheahawk

Member
Jan 16, 2013
533
Kansas City

triz

Member
Apr 22, 2013
746
Crankshaft sensor is located drivers side bottom near the oil pan closer to the firewall.

I would try and keep this as simple as possible. Do the leakdown, compression test. Change the plugs. You can test the Crankshaft sensor in under 2 minutes so it doesn't really cost anything. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this is just a simple spark plug FML moment.
 

danger

Original poster
Member
Apr 6, 2014
37
ok guys,
I put it back together today and put new AC Delco plugs in it. When I was finishing pulling the plugs, #4 showed me something that I was not expecting. the end of the spark plug was crushed. My phone is dead right now so no way to take pictures but I will.
I attempted to crank it and it is doing the exact same thing it was doing before. on a whim I pulled the coil pack and plug on #4 and attempted to crank it. I was actually able to get it to run as long as I kept my foot on the gas. it was running like crap, but it ran long enough to get the SES light to start blinking. I need to do a compression test on it but I can't find my compression tester. so I guess I'll have to buy a new one. I'm starting to think I lost a rod...
 

MAY03LT

Member
Nov 18, 2011
3,412
Delmarva
danger said:
ok guys,I put it back together today and put new AC Delco plugs in it. When I was finishing pulling the plugs, #4 showed me something that I was not expecting. the end of the spark plug was crushed. My phone is dead right now so no way to take pictures but I will.

Did it look like this? I was going to post this pic after listening to your vid because this I6 sounded just like yours.:frown:

 

danger

Original poster
Member
Apr 6, 2014
37
MAY03LT said:
Did it look like this? I was going to post this pic after listening to your vid because this I6 sounded just like yours.:frown:


pretty much May03... what's the deal with that I6?
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Wow.

I can't think of what could cause this except for maybe the plug being too cold built up a ton of carbon but that is substantial damage for carbon, or some debris made it through the intake...:confused:

Are the plugs the correct length?

That sucks Danger.
 

MAY03LT

Member
Nov 18, 2011
3,412
Delmarva
danger said:
pretty much May03... what's the deal with that I6?



This came in for a crank/no start. According to the customer they just went to leave for work and it wouldn't start. No cranking vacuum, sounded like yours up top. I thought it lost an intake valve, went to do a compression test and found this. My work gave them a ridiculous quote and scared them away. Never got to tear into it. I think it was an 07 but not 100% sure.
 

danger

Original poster
Member
Apr 6, 2014
37
well aside from a compression test on the cylinder... how else can I check to see if I lost a rod?
 

IllogicTC

Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
danger said:
well aside from a compression test on the cylinder... how else can I check to see if I lost a rod?

You could do a complete engine teardown :eek: compression test sounds a lot more sound by comparison :rotfl:
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
danger said:
well aside from a compression test on the cylinder... how else can I check to see if I lost a rod?

You can put a breaker bar on the harmonic balancer bolt and place a wooden dowel in the spark plug hole resting on the piston. At half way down the bore, take the breaker bar and move it slightly back and forth and the rod should move with the slight movement of the breaker bar. If the dowel remains steady for a moment then likely the bearing is gone. This will be obvious, very slight movement may not move the piston but you will see if one clearly has excess clearance.

You could also go one step further with a dial gauge, place it above the plug well with the tip into the cylinder and measure the total travel of each piston, a bent rod will show a lesser amount and carbon will likely not take up as much slack.
 

danger

Original poster
Member
Apr 6, 2014
37
OK guys, here's the update. I ran a compression test on it this evening, and all the cylinders were pressure testing at 90 PSI... except 1... and I have a correction here.... it was #3. it was coming up a big fat 0. I put a long screw driver in the cylinder and turned it over, and there was movement of the piston. so I added 3 cap full of 30 weight to the cylinder and turned it over and it came up to 60 PSI. we all know what that means... now... what would you guys do.... tear into the engine and rebuild it... or swap it out with a salvage yard engine?
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
Or buy a rebuilt one on Ebay after checking references. A lot depends on how much you need it back fast, how deep your pockets are, tolerance for risk, insistence on a warranty, demand for reliability, etc., etc.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
The fact you have 90 in the others is bad as well, should be close to 200. but at least 175. Something else is going on and I wish I could be there to help you figure it out. How many times did you crank the engine over for each cylinder.....should build over the course of about 3 compression strokes.

If you go with a reman motor, I don't know which years are compatible with the 02.

Having 2WD makes it somewhat easier to R&R
 

MAY03LT

Member
Nov 18, 2011
3,412
Delmarva
I'd go with a salvage yard. Like gmcman said, you'll have it a little easier since it's 2WD.
 

danger

Original poster
Member
Apr 6, 2014
37
well, I started reviewing some old threads and it turns out my vehicles VIN falls into the range for cracked cylinder sleeve. My local Salvage yard doesn't have any 4.2L i6's in stock at the moment ( he had one 2 weeks ago and sold it for 600.00). so right now I am thinking about tearing this engine down to the long block to see if I can spot the problem. Any advice you guys want to give?
 

danger

Original poster
Member
Apr 6, 2014
37
well I started tearing down the engine again tonight, and guess what I found in my newly cleaned intake manifold? shards of metal.... The largest being about 1/4" sq. it looks to be part of a bearing. Now, I know I am going to have to replace this engine. but given it's bad history. does anyone have any recommendations as to which year I should go back with.... something that is a direct fit?
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
I'm trying to understand how you have metal inside your intake. Is there any chance something like a bolt, washer, etc was injested through your intake beginning from your air filter?

When did this happen? Was it all of a sudden and was it after any maintenance? What does your air filter look like and the rest of the intake tube....any screws missing?

I wonder if you can get by with a head removal but the thing is it's probably just as easy to pull the motor.

I don't know what models fit, at least up to 2004 should work.
 

danger

Original poster
Member
Apr 6, 2014
37
the metal had to have passed through the valves when I was able to get it to run. Based on the consistency of it... it is not part of a bolt. as I said in the post. it appears to be part of a bearing.
the main reason I am removing the head aside from it being to be able to access the upper trans bolts easier, but it is also to see just how bad that cylinder is.

As for an update. I have everything stripped off the top of the engine except the fuel rail and exhaust manifold. Call it beginners luck but I have all the head bolts out and only broke 1.... and it was one of the front row bolts.
I'm assuming there is a special tool to remove the fuel rail from the injectors.... would I be correct in my assumption?

as for the replacement engine.... so far I have found out that if I were to go with an 03 I would have to change out the knock sensors.... anyone know if this is true?
 

MAY03LT

Member
Nov 18, 2011
3,412
Delmarva
danger said:
I'm assuming there is a special tool to remove the fuel rail from the injectors
You mean to remove the rail/injectors from the engine or remove the injectors from the rail? Either way there are no special tools needed.
 

IllogicTC

Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
danger said:
any tips on how to remove it?
There's some bolts that hold the rail to the engine. Not that many even. The injectors are held to the rail, and held in place by the rail. Remove the rail bolts, and the whole she-bang can come out, injectors still attached.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
danger said:
it is not part of a bolt. as I said in the post. it appears to be part of a bearing.
That's what has me confused.....how did it get above the piston and/or through the valves? Either way...it's metal and once the head comes off we will know more.
 

IllogicTC

Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
gmcman said:
That's what has me confused.....how did it get above the piston and/or through the valves? Either way...it's metal and once the head comes off we will know more.
If it's in the falling sleeves range, who knows? Maybe it's not so much "above" as "through." Domino effect and all that.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
IllogicTC said:
If it's in the falling sleeves range, who knows? Maybe it's not so much "above" as "through." Domino effect and all that.
Well, in the opening post there was the fact it had a code for the cam position, I don't know what codes are displayed when the crank sensor and the cam sensor aren't jiving, but the PCM will know when the cam and crank aren't in sync, and I have been told (no knowledge to the truth of this) that when the cam chain is off by more than a quarter of a tooth then the CEL light will trip.

The cam gears showed that it was in time but again the crank gear that we couldn't see could have jumped a tooth despite the chain still being tight....that's the job of the tensioner and that's spring loaded. Could very well jump a tooth and possibly still appear to be tight.

There is minimal compression on all the cylinders and none in one of them, backfiring through intake. The backfiring could be from the cyl with zero presure and may have damage to only one cylinder.

The metal could be from the damaged plug and whatever it took out, the cylinder sleeves could have been the culprit also but I'm thinking more of a cam chain slip or crazy carbon build up.

Danger hasn't said yet if it did this all of a sudden or when he picked it up but if it was like this who knows what the damage was. So a question for the experts.......with the I6, does a CASE relearn also re-establish the cam/crank relationship?
 

IllogicTC

Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
gmcman said:
Danger hasn't said yet if it did this all of a sudden or when he picked it up but if it was like this who knows what the damage was. So a question for the experts.......with the I6, does a CASE relearn also re-establish the cam/crank relationship?
Assuming the cam sensor, the crank sensor, and the timing are all good, the code can be cleared if it doesn't go away on its own. The code for correlation error is P1345, and I'm not entirely sure that the vehicle necessarily would even pop crank/cam correlation codes if it detects it needs a CASE. CASE only needs done after certain procedures though, such as replacing the crank sensor, the harmonic balancer, or the PCM.

However I would assume that it would need to have the CASE data in the first place to determine if the crank/cam relationship is truly off. If you haven't done any service that needs a CASE, this data should already be in the PCM.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
After hearing that vid and the broken plug, I don't think a CASE relearn is gonna fix this one unfortunately.
 

MAY03LT

Member
Nov 18, 2011
3,412
Delmarva
Holy smokes. I never woulda guessed it tossed a ring up top. If you break down the block, you know we want to see more.

Also, thanks for update (and the shout out).
 

danger

Original poster
Member
Apr 6, 2014
37
I'll be doing some videos of the engine removal and reinstall.... and once I get the engine out I will crack open the bottom half and get a look at what caused all this play in the cylinder. the odd part is.... everything on the exhaust side, head bolts, exhaust bolts, etc... have all been super easy to break loose. where as the intake side has been torqued down as it should have been. I wouldn't at all be surprised to find that the piston cap for that cylinder isn't backed off....
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Wow....that's nuts.

Doesn't it look like the intake valves pushed a hole in the piston? That's crazy. Since they both move simultaneously it would explain the oval-shaped hole...question is why.

Man that sucks, but I guess when it comes down to looking for a motor I would seriously consider an 06 head if possible, may even work on a pre-06 block. You get larger ports and better breathing an if I were to build one up that's the way to go if possible but don't know 100%.
 

Ed H

Member
Oct 18, 2012
167
Sorry Danger. That sucks. You do good work though. And nice video. I look forward to your updates!
 

IllogicTC

Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
Not sure if the intake valves could have done that or not, but it's feasible. We've been running engines of "interference design" for a long time now, to both the benefit of economy and power and the detriment of skipped timing. Not sure, but I would assume ours is interference to help achieve the 10:1 (and higher in later years) compression. People with timing belts have it SOOOOO much worse if they don't stay on top of regular and preventive maintenance of the timing system.

Also... Cyl 1 is up front, 6 has the antifreeze (you did the non-dex switch?) and 4 is the toasted one. Toast is toast though, and at least you took the right path and ensured that there was indeed a problem and you found a symptom to narrow it down (compression), and then took the time and pain in the neck ripping all that apart to confirm the issue. Sure it's more time-consuming this way, but it justifies buying a new motor at least instead of having some issue that may be fixed for far less time and money.
 

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